XC down from 9 coach to 4, packed and 1st Class not declassified

[Wolfie]

That's a bit strong. It's not rubbish, it's just a particular point of view.

I was trying to look at it from a moral perspective, but I take your point about litigation. In that case, one could argue that the railway laws need to be changed to make them more equitable.

My argument (made without an awareness of the legal issues, I will admit) was: is it fair that standard class passengers have to stand when there are seats available in first class, just so the first class passengers don't have to share their space with standard class? I don't think so personally, but obviously opinions on this differ. Should the railway spend money, in rather short supply, refunding first class passengers if this happens? Perhaps, perhaps not. Should first class provision be reduced on busy services? I think so personally, but obviously opinions differ.

Not just railway laws. Contract law has quite a lot to do with it too.

The level of provision (including zero) of First Class is a whole other debate.

Don't forget that a lot of people are too precious about having someone sat near them too and will occupy seats with bags etc. There's been instances of individuals having a bay of 4 to themselves and telling people to stay away.

Unacceptable and they wouldn't get away with it if l wanted a seat.

 

[6Gman]

It isn't quite the same.

A guard can upgrade whoever they want into first class, but declassifying it is different; it means anyone and everyone can sit in there and all service is suspended and there is no first class whatsoever any more.

An airline would certainly have to refund you; if you booked business class on BA, but they unblocked the middle seat and allowed anyone who could reach the seat first to take it, along with suspending all the complimentary service you'd paid for and promptly declaring that business class doesn't actually exist any more on the aircraft. Indeed this did happen at the outset of Covid when there was hordes of people needing to return home from short haul destinations.

There is another important difference.

Upgrade on a plane from Heathrow to Edinburgh (or wherever) and you know you'll be ok throughout.

Put Standard Class passengers into First Class at Oxford on a Bournemouth - Newcastle (or wherever) and what happens when First Class ticket holders get on at Leamington?

 

[Wolfie]

There is another important difference.

Upgrade on a plane from Heathrow to Edinburgh (or wherever) and you know you'll be ok throughout.

Put Standard Class passengers into First Class at Oxford on a Bournemouth - Newcastle (or wherever) and what happens when First Class ticket holders get on at Leamington?

I was on a train a while ago where First Class was declassified. It got quieter and there was a guard change. The new Guard reclassified and then insisted those with Standard class tickets move. Petty, ridiculous and unfair in my view.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There is another important difference.

Upgrade on a plane from Heathrow to Edinburgh (or wherever) and you know you'll be ok throughout.

Put Standard Class passengers into First Class at Oxford on a Bournemouth - Newcastle (or wherever) and what happens when First Class ticket holders get on at Leamington?

You announce it over the PA system at each stop surely? Easy.

Don't forget that a lot of people are too precious about having someone sat near them too and will occupy seats with bags etc. There's been instances of individuals having a bay of 4 to themselves and telling people to stay away.

To be fair, there is a fair bit of a difference between a service "busy" enough so that people are able to be previous about someone being sat near of them and services being so busy that people literally are unable to board.

 

[DorkingMain]

I suspect there is a lot of waiting going on for more Voyagers to become available from Avanti and EMR, and until then the can will continue to be kicked down the road.

 

[6Gman]

You announce it over the PA system at each stop surely? Easy.

You announce what exactly?

"If you've been placed in First Class by the Train Manager please vacate your seat if it's required by a passenger holding a First Class ticket" ?

Just can't see that working somehow.

 

[Wychwood93]

You announce what exactly?

"If you've been placed in First Class by the Train Manager please vacate your seat if it's required by a passenger holding a First Class ticket" ?

Just can't see that working somehow.

It could easily lead to conflict, as with the reservation whilst the train is in motion bit. The latter has been covered at length on another thread. A flash of my STC (Staff Travel Card) can often see me bumped up to first, most often with a 'where are you going?' - generally I go from down here to Reading - most would probably let me go to Oxford, beyond that would be something I would not ask for. If they offered...........

 

[Facing Back]

You announce what exactly?

"If you've been placed in First Class by the Train Manager please vacate your seat if it's required by a passenger holding a First Class ticket" ?

Just can't see that working somehow.

I used to catch Voyagers from Stockport to Bristol, or occasionally Bournemouth. I’d book first as it was a long trip in my own time, I valued the convenience and comfort and paid the premium - sometimes really quite a lot on XC. If there was disruption - the train was short formed, the previous train had been cancelled etc then ce la vie. I’d either stand or not board.

If the train was just routinely busy (which is frequently was) and I could not get to a seat - or more regularly ”my” reserved seat as the carriage was full of std ticket holders from Manchester who couldn’t find a seat, I would expect the TM to ask the person in my seat to leave or to make sure std passengers gave way - and to be fair sometimes that happened, but not reliably.

I would not dream of hogging a seat on a busy train with a bag and I don’t care who sits next to me. I do care if I can’t get a seat, and that was an issue boarding at a non-terminus station. Quite reasonably when let into first class to stand, passengers sit down in available seats. If the train is only point to point then no harm no foul, but passengers joining later have a problem.

When I had a TM manager who said “tough”, would not declassify first and also would not let me get to my seat I mentioned it to XC who were actually quite gracious with compensation and an apology, but I’ve haven’t travelled with them since. I fly, or I also find a taxi for 200 miles in a nice german car is about the same price as the open first fare. I’m not going back to XC anytime soon despite the fact that I really prefer to travel by train whenever I can.

 

[Neo9320]

I think I’m missing something here….I regularly travel with XC and every voyager/super voyager I’ve been on has about 6 1st class seats at the front in no way different from any other seat…no special service or menu…for everyone moaning about the disparity between classes…if you’re paying for first with XC then you are a mug!

 

[Falcon1200]

I regularly travel with XC and every voyager/super voyager I’ve been on has about 6 1st class seats at the front in no way different from any other seat…no special service or menu…

Are you not perhaps thinking of the Class 170 sets, because every Voyager has an entire coach of First Class, with 26 seats in 2+1 instead of 2+2 format, and which are considerably better than Standard ?

 

[station_road]

Are you not perhaps thinking of the Class 170 sets, because every Voyager has an entire coach of First Class, with 26 seats in 2+1 instead of 2+2 format, and which are considerably better than Standard ?

And even the Class 170 First Class section is 2+1 seats

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Overcrowding on XC is, fortunately, not as much of an issue as it used to be.

Really? It's been awful the past couple of weeks between Leeds and Sheffield.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Really? It's been awful the past couple of weeks between Leeds and Sheffield.

Agreed down here between Birmingham and Bristol as well. Some late evening departures from Birmingham down south are currently booked to be a double set as far as New Street and then just have the front set continuing onto Plymouth and they regularly leave full and standing (particularly the 20:12).

I got caught out the other day thinking it would be easier to let rush hour die down and on one occasion I had to wait for the 20:30 Cardiff service and change at Gloucester.

 

[gazzaa2]

I suppose XC services are so regularly full and standing that they've got to be careful with how many times they declassify first....

although it's train crew discretion...

A seat is a luxury on XC.



Moderator note: Suggestions regarding how to improve CrossCountry services can be discussed at the following thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-can-crosscountry-realistically-be-improved.224769/

Also see: Birmingham-Manchester standalone service?