XC Staff gets upset that they need to move luggage for wheelchair user in 1st

[Signal_Box]

Original tweet: https://twitter.com/Doug_Paulley/status/1695187378564948405



Video link:

Train Manager seems to get quite upset that a northern staff member let a wheelchair user on without “checking” the space first… which was filled with luggage.

This bloke has many videos of id suggest him seeking confrontation with staff, he’s a activist for disable rights but goes about it like a bull in a China shop.

The TM wasn’t very good on first impressions, but giving him the benefit of the doubt he wasn’t talking to Doug but the platform assistant who are only to quick to dump “problems” on train crew.

Pleas note, I’m not referring to Doug as a problem, I’m speaking generally.

 

[yorkie]

What is the relevance of there not being a first class host ? I don't understand why that was important.

Cheers in advance.

The initial XC staff member was trying to be helpful; their point was that the passenger would potentially not be receiving the full service, for which they had paid, if they were in that set.

It was good customer service by the initial member of XC staff.

What would you like to be called ?



Can I call you Guv (I'm from London) or if your female can I call you 'Luv' ?

What about 'flower' or 'pet'. Dude ? Boss ?

I don't think this particular debate (raised by @BluePenguin ) is helpful; I agree with your point on this matter and many regions of the UK would deem terms like "mate" to be perfectly acceptable.

The TM wasn’t very good on first impressions

That's a huge understatement

, but giving him the benefit of the doubt he wasn’t talking to Doug but the platform assistant who are only to quick to dump “problems” on train crew.

The member of Northern staff was carrying out the advice of a member of XC staff; they had done nothing wrong. They should not have been spoken to like that, and especially not in front of a customer.

I don't know, but it seems to be why the videographer was moved from his reserved place to the other train.
Not getting the service?

Yes the initial XC crew member (who I suspect was on the train until Leeds) was trying to be helpful; they would have not had any reason to believe there would be any problems gaining access to the space in the other set. But the problem was the way the TM handled the matter; anything else is a distraction from what is actually the issue here.

 

[Master29]

This bloke has many videos of id suggest him seeking confrontation with staff, he’s a activist for disable rights but goes about it like a bull in a China shop.

The TM wasn’t very good on first impressions, but giving him the benefit of the doubt he wasn’t talking to Doug but the platform assistant who are only to quick to dump “problems” on train crew.

Pleas note, I’m not referring to Doug as a problem, I’m speaking generally.

I agree with this. I have watched his videos before. Although he makes good points it's all about him and his disability. I think he does rather look for trouble at times.

 

[yorkie]

. I think he does rather look for trouble at times.

Whatever may have happened on other occasions, there is no sign of the passenger looking for trouble on this occasion.

 

[Mike Machin]

The train manager obviously should have been much more courteous to the passenger, but I expect the train manager is also totally stressed-out by having to be the customer-facing representative to passengers who quite rightly are anticipating an ‘Inter-City experience’ and are confronted by a cramped, over-crowded, worn-out, often totally inadequate shambles of a train rattling away.

Nowhere for people to sit, barely enough space to stand, cramped seats wedged in if you are lucky enough to get to sit down, and hardly anywhere to put your luggage. It doesn’t excuse rude behaviour, but it’s no wonder the train managers are often at their wits end.

 

[Energy]

This bloke has many videos of id suggest him seeking confrontation with staff, he’s a activist for disable rights but goes about it like a bull in a China shop.

I'd agree with that, his case against First Bus was great for disabled people but I find in his videos he can be quick to be confrontational and annoyed with front line staff.

However he does have plenty of valid videos on his channel, such as booked assistance failing to turn up. In this case the XC staff member didn't act professionally and didn't treat him with the same level of importance as another passenger.

On a side note I do find it annoying that he turns off comments on his videos, though I could understand if he's had harassment in the past.

 

[Master29]

Whatever may have happened on other occasions, there is no sign of the passenger looking for trouble on this occasion.

Indeed not on this occasion but I think unnecessarily so on others, although this might not be such a bad thing in some ways.

 

[185]

there is no sign of the passenger looking for trouble

Err.. he was filming it long before

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't think this particular debate (raised by @BluePenguin ) is helpful; I agree with your point on this matter and many regions of the UK would deem terms like "mate" to be perfectly acceptable.

I disagree. Language has become exceptionally important. We are at a point where I cannot announce, "good morning ladies and gentlemen" because that's considered exclusive. If I say 'Cheers luv' It is considered to be sexist and outdated language. @BluePenguin raised the issue of being called 'mate' and I can understand their objections. However, I would like to learn what is acceptable and then act accordingly in my role when dealing with passengers (or are they customers...)

In terms of 'customer service' and how people are being spoken to, the language people use is very significant. Learning what people wish to be referred to and then trying to use more incluse and less offensive language is part and parcel of offering good customer service.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Can someone help me with the legalities?

I would hope that keeping wheelchair spaces clear at all times is a requirement regardless of wether the wheelchair space is reserved or not?

Are passengers required to comply with crew member instructions?

 

[bramling]

Terrible attitude by the XC train manager, hopefully his superiors see this and take the appropriate action, but please, lets not turn this into an XC bashing thread, the majority of their staff are excellent.

All TOCs have a few bad apples, some more than others.

To be fair on this one, whilst it rightly comes across awfully, I get the feeling this was more a case of exasperation rather than malice. Doesn’t make it right, but may well explain it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does he really deserve castigating like this for being a bit grumpy? He did his job; he just complained a bit whilst doing it.

I agree with this- yes he was a bit grumpy, and shouldn't have let his frustrations show in the way he did, but having a rough day is hardly a sacking offence- it certainly shouldn't be. There's a lot of saints on this thread willing to cast the first stone.

I don't get it. He was talking to the guy with the ramp, and he was honest there was little space, and was better in the other train.
Some folk take grievance at the drop of the hat, and looking at a few of his other videos, it seems that that's a hobby.

The person in question does have form. Whilst the issues he draws attention to are valid, his tactics can sometimes come across on the militant side.

I disagree. Language has become exceptionally important. We are at a point where I cannot announce, "good morning ladies and gentlemen" because that's considered exclusive. If I say 'Cheers luv' It is considered to be sexist and outdated language. @BluePenguin raised the issue of being called 'mate' and I can understand their objections. However, I would like to learn what is acceptable and then act accordingly in my role when dealing with passengers (or are they customers...)

In terms of 'customer service' and how people are being spoken to, the language people use is very significant. Learning what people wish to be referred to and then trying to use more incluse and less offensive language is part and parcel of offering good customer service.

I'm glad I no longer work in a customer-facing role. Public facing staff are expected to have some sort of extra-sensory perception lest they offend someone by being the "wrong sort of polite". Note- I'm not suggesting this staff member was "trying to be polite", he was clearly a bit rude and grumpy and was having a bad day.

 

[wellhouse]

An underlying causal factor in this situation is the often inadequate provision for luggage storage, especially close to wheelchair spaces.

 

[yorkie]

Err.. he was filming it long before

Well it depends on what you mean by 'looking for trouble'; I interpreted the term to mean looking to provoke/cause problems, rather than looking out for troublesome behaviour.

I disagree. Language has become exceptionally important. We are at a point where I cannot announce, "good morning ladies and gentlemen" because that's considered exclusive.

And yet I actually hear this quote often!

If I say 'Cheers luv' It is considered to be sexist and outdated language. @BluePenguin raised the issue of being called 'mate' and I can understand their objections. However, I would like to learn what is acceptable and then act accordingly in my role when dealing with passengers (or are they customers...)

In terms of 'customer service' and how people are being spoken to, the language people use is very significant. Learning what people wish to be referred to and then trying to use more incluse and less offensive language is part and parcel of offering good customer service.

I'm not saying it's not a debate worth having but it's a separate debate.

Can someone help me with the legalities?

I would hope that keeping wheelchair spaces clear at all times is a requirement regardless of wether the wheelchair space is reserved or not

Correct. However some XC train managers do allow luggage to be stored in this area.

Are passengers required to comply with crew member instructions?

Yes which they did.

I agree with this- yes he was a bit grumpy, and shouldn't have let his frustrations show in the way he did, but having a rough day is hardly a sacking offence-

Is anyone suggesting otherwise?

it certainly shouldn't be. There's a lot of saints on this thread willing to cast the first stone.

If you disagree with any post, you are welcome to quote it and state your view.

I'm glad I no longer work in a customer-facing role. Public facing staff are expected to have some sort of extra-sensory perception lest they offend someone by being the "wrong sort of polite".

There is no such expectation; other posters above have said how it could have been handled. Indeed staff handle such issues professionally on a regular basis.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm not saying it's not a debate worth having but it's a separate debate.

Is the debate about customer service or something else entirely ?

I think the first error is moving the passenger. If the presence of a first class host is purely to provide at seat refreshments then the comment regarding a retail host being present is significant. Personally I would not have moved the passenger but then I don't know the service or stock.

Train design is not suitable for everyone and I'd agree with the posts that state that potentially the issue lies with luggage occupying the accessible space (note I didn't say disabled or wheelchair)

Should the problem be with the passengers who potentially ignored the signs and dumped their luggage in the space or is this down to how units are designed and the fact that passengers needing additional assistance and reasonable adjustments.

To err is Human, to forgive is divine.

 

[Bow Fell]

Don’t agree in the slightest with the TM’s approach here, doesn’t look good in front of the customer and berating the Northern staff who are trying to help.

One question, is the lack of frustration directed towards the passengers with the luggage in the wheelchair space.

I imagine this alone is a source of frustration for staff.

I will say and I’m not defending the TM by the way, but I think the TM’s attitude was that they were on the defensive as he thought there would be a confrontation between the wheelchair user and the passengers who had the luggage in the space. It wasn’t an issue at all obviously.

 

[Signal_Box]

Whatever may have happened on other occasions, there is no sign of the passenger looking for trouble on this occasion.

Did you watch the same video as me ?
If he had an issue with the treatment reserve comment and complain, Doug had rather a lot of weight when he does - probably why he’s so confident in his approach to confrontation.

 

[yorkie]

Is the debate about customer service or something else entirely ?

If you want to have a debate about how you should address passengers, that's a great idea for a new thread.

I think the first error is moving the passenger. If the presence of a first class host is purely to provide at seat refreshments then the comment regarding a retail host being present is significant. Personally I would not have moved the passenger but then I don't know the service or stock.

This is a side-issue; it was XC themselves who suggested this, and furthermore the staff member who suggested it would not have had any reason to believe the other area was obstructed by luggage, nor was this a factor in the complaint. The luggage was, in any event, moved.

Did you watch the same video as me ?

The customer wasn't 'looking for trouble' in the way that terminology is generally used:

be looking for trouble

1. to be acting in a way that will certainly cause problems for you: 2. to be…

dictionary.cambridge.org

to be acting in a way that will certainly cause problems for you:
Parking in his space is just looking for trouble.

The customer was following instructions, and then the incident occurred, which was caused by the XC member of staff who had just boarded at Leeds speaking inappropriately, whether that was directed at the Northern staff member (who had done nothing wrong) or the customer, either way it's not acceptable behaviour.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think he does rather look for trouble at times.

Or maybe that kind of poor treatment is just the normal when you are disabled in this county. Sadly that does seem to be the case. You only have to do fairly quick Google to see tonnes and tonnes of such examples. It's hardly looking for trouble if it happens to disabled people all the time! And that is often why some people do get angry / frustrated / behave less than their best in such situations - the staff member may well have just made one mistake, but for the other person this may well be the third or fourth they've dealt with that day where they have been treated worse than they should have been.

 

[Towers]

Can someone help me with the legalities?

I would hope that keeping wheelchair spaces clear at all times is a requirement regardless of wether the wheelchair space is reserved or not?

Are passengers required to comply with crew member instructions?

There was a landmark legal case involving a bus company a few years back, in which the court ruled that a wheelchair user has priority in law to access the designated wheelchair space, but it was also noted that whilst a bus driver should make all reasonable efforts to remove any other users who might be preventing access, they have no legal powers to enforce it.

Train operators will have their own varying policies regarding wheelchair bay access, however the clear reality is that if there is a large empty space somewhere on a very busy train, people will find a use for it. Unless you station somebody there to guard the space for the entirety of every journey, there will always be luggage, pushchairs or whatever else regularly occupying wheelchair spaces on trains.

 

[irish_rail]

Do you also consider it disrespectful for rail staff to wear body worn cameras?

Its completely different. That footage won't be published and broadcast around the world. As a frontline member of rail staff, id instantly be twitchy if I enter into a conversation with a member of the public who is pointing a camera in my face.

 

[Brissle Girl]

He is well known for seeking out confrontation in several different ways in the pursuit of disabled persons' rights, and has been very successful up as far as the Supreme Court, as First Bus found out to its cost.

'Wheelchair v buggy': Disabled man wins Supreme Court case

Bus drivers will have to do more to help wheelchair users after a disabled man's court victory.

www.bbc.co.uk

A disabled man has won a Supreme Court case after a dispute with a woman with a buggy over wheelchair space on a bus.
It means bus drivers will have to do more to accommodate wheelchair users.
Wheelchair user Doug Paulley brought his case after he was refused entry to a FirstGroup bus in 2012, when a mother with a pushchair refused to move.
First Bus said the ruling meant drivers would not have to remove customers from its vehicles, while Mr Paulley said the ruling would make "a major difference".
The court said the company should consider further steps to persuade non-wheelchair users to move, without making it a legal duty to move them.
It ruled that FirstGroup's policy of requiring a driver to simply request a non-wheelchair user to vacate the space without taking any further steps was unjustified.

Another more recent example is a video posted on Twitter where he appears to deliberately scrape his wheelchair along the side of a car blocking a pavement before reversing.

https://twitter.com/Doug_Paulley/status/1695499013846384779

"Sue me. Outside Selly Oak Station yesterday."

It's possible to have differing opinions as to how appropriate some of his actions are.

My view is that he sometimes crosses the line, but then I am not forced to use a wheelchair to get around, and I can understand why it must be terribly frustrating when he encounters some of the situations that he does.

 

[ComUtoR]

This is a side-issue;

No, it isn't. Purely from a non emotional, outside perspective; there is far to much emphasis placed on the end result and not the underlying causal factors. We can rant against the staff member all day long but what does this achieve ? Customer service isn't about kissing up to the passenger and giving them anything they desire. We, as an industry, need to find out the underlying reasons why it all goes wrong and how the customer is best served.

If the first part of the interaction was successful; the second part would not have happened.

nor was this a factor in the complaint.

Has there been a complaint ? What is the specific detail of the customers complaint please ?


We ALL need to be better and preventing the problems occurring in the first instance is where we need to be putting our efforts. Them vs Us is a waste of everyone's time

 

[yorkie]

Its completely different. That footage won't be published and broadcast around the world. As a frontline member of rail staff, id instantly be twitchy if I enter into a conversation with a member of the public who is pointing a camera in my face.

That isn't what you said upthread though.

What do you mean by "pointing a camera in my face" exactly?

Also, are you now suggesting that "pointing a camera in someone's face" can be a good thing if it won't be uploaded?

 

[voyagerdude220]

I would just point out that videoing rail staff and other passengers in this way, is in itself a bit disrespectful , especially then posting it all over the Internet. Could at least have blurred out all the faces. People often react differently when they have a camera shoved in their faces, though I do agree it wasn't great customer service.

I agree. Whilst I can certainly see why the passenger concerned wasn't happy with the attitude of the TM, looking at their YouTube channel, most, if not all of their videos seen to be uploaded with the intention of highlighting problems they've encountered.

It's unfair to blame the TM on the video if the previous TM failed to keep the wheelchair area clear. Although if there wasn't anywhere else to place the luggage (if the main luggage rack near the galley was full) I can understand why they may have left it as it was.

Having said that, their initial reaction was that the wheelchair user wouldn't be able to board because of the luggage- without at least assessing the situation and giving passengers onboard time to see if they could store their luggage away safely somewhere away from the wheelchair space.

I certainly don't agree with the wheelchair user filming because the frequency of them doing so in my opinion makes it look like they're trying to cause trouble instead of highlighting problems they sadly may encounter in a constructive, fair way.

I wouldn't have exactly felt welcome by the Train Manager involved if I was the passenger involved. (As a fellow member of Railway staff I'm trying to avoid criticism of fellow colleagues)

 

[irish_rail]

That isn't what you said upthread though.

What do you mean by "pointing a camera in my face" exactly?

Also, are you now suggesting that "pointing a camera in someone's face" can be a good thing if it won't be uploaded?

Rail staff are human beings too, with thoughts , feelings , families etc. How do you think that guy feels being all over the Internet. Is he now worried he will lose his job? Be targeted by haters? Is he now afraid, embarrassed, hurt, depressed? I'm sorry, I do not agree with filming of people going about their daily job. It doesn't sit right with me. Those rail staff cameras are there purely for safety should they be assaulted, and as I have said that footage won't be broadcast to all and sundry.

 

[yorkie]

It's unfair to blame the TM on the video if the previous TM failed to keep the wheelchair area clear.

I don't think anyone is blaming the TM for this? The luggage issue was resolved; the issue is the poor way in which the XC TM spoke to the passenger and/or Northern staff member, neither of whom had done anything wrong.

 

[Darandio]

For anyone suggesting the user shouldn't film it and just file a complaint. What happens when a request for proof of the exchange? It doesn't exist because the members of RailUK would rather it wasn't filmed.

We need to be brutally honest here, stuff like what is seen in the video is a recurring theme and needs to be documented. Not so much the attitude of staff but the continued use of things like a dedicated wheelchair space for anything but what it's intended for. Look at the exchanges on that Youtube channel over the years, if none of it was recorded you'd laugh it off as a discussion on this forum because none of your 'brothers or sisters' would ever have acted like that.

Walk a day (or not) in their shoes....

 

[voyagerdude220]

I don't think anyone is blaming the TM for this? The luggage issue was resolved; the issue is the poor way in which the XC TM spoke to the passenger and/or Northern staff member, neither of whom had done anything wrong.

Fair enough. I was referring to the comment the TM made about the carriage being full, thus why the passenger wouldn't be able to board that carriage.

 

[irish_rail]

For anyone suggesting the user shouldn't film it and just file a complaint. What happens when a request for proof of the exchange? It doesn't exist because the members of RailUK would rather it wasn't filmed.

We need to be brutally honest here, stuff like what is seen in the video is a recurring theme and needs to be documented. Not so much the attitude of staff but the continued use of things like a dedicated wheelchair space for anything but what it's intended for. Look at the exchanges on that Youtube channel over the years, if none of it was recorded you'd laugh it off as a discussion on this forum because none of your 'brothers or sisters' would ever have acted like that.

Walk a day (or not) in their shoes....

If the user makes an allegation then the TOC should take it seriously. And I believe they would. His manager would no doubt be informed and a bit of re training and bit of a b*llocking would no doubt follow. Far better than name and shame for someone probably having a bad day. For all we know his kid has just been diagnosed with cancer , or his wife has just left him. By reporting it to his TOC other factors can be considered , as opposed to trial by "media".