Yellow box junctions

[Islineclear3_1]

I understand the rules of a yellow box junction but don't understand why somebody should be fined if they find themselves stuck due to rush hour traffic jams.

I have received a fine from TfL for entering and stopping in a signalled box junction when my exit wasn't clear, but on most days, in the morning rush hour, the exit is never clear due to bumper-to-bumper traffic. Traffic merges in from all directions and even buses find themselves stuck in the box junction . If I didn't move, I would just be holding up the traffic behind me even more

Do I have a case to appeal?. I begrudge paying "broke" TfL for "breaking Contravention 31 when it is perfectly clear that my exit would never be clear until the end of the rush hour

 

[edwin_m]

The whole point of a yellow box is that you shouldn't enter it unless the exit is clear (except if you need to do so to turn right). In fact that's true of all junctions so I'm not sure why some have boxes and others don't. Having people blocking the junction means that when the cross-road gets a green nobody can move, leading to far worse congestion than if people had just waited their turn.

 

[Basil Jet]

even buses find themselves stuck in the box junction .

Buses are always blocking bus junctions. I presume they are de facto exempt, even though legally they are not.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The whole point of a yellow box is that you shouldn't enter it unless the exit is clear (except if you need to do so to turn right). In fact that's true of all junctions so I'm not sure why some have boxes and others don't. Having people blocking the junction means that when the cross-road gets a green nobody can move, leading to far worse congestion than if people had just waited their turn.

And a new dimension to Khan's "congestion charge".... London traffic blocking up box junctions so another money making scam

 

[315801]

I used to be a bus driver here in the wirral and on my 1st run of the day would frequently find traffic blocking my way, however, at this point I must state that this is a common occurrence but it was due to drivers be too impatient and cannot be bothered waiting for the next sequence in the lights.

I had an instance 1 day when I was heading to Port Sunlight ( home of the unilever factory ) and a car just entered the yellow box and went straight into my path, bearing in mind that it was a frosty morning so I was keeping my speed down. The car driver saw must have been ina daze and still pulled into my path, it was only when I slammed the brakes on and blew the horn at the driver that he realised that I was there.

His girlfriend ( who was also the owner of the car ) absolutely **** herself and couldn't stop apologising to me. What the driver had not seen was a police car with 2 officers in that had witnessed the entire incident.

1 officer came to make sure I was ok and once he was satisfied I was he went and spoke to the car driver. He claimed he did not see me coming to which the officer said to him that if he couldn't see a white 35 foot long single deck bus coming towards him that he shouldn't be driving.

It turned out with information from his girlfriend that he had only passed his test 2 weeks before the incident and was insured to drive the car. I duly recommended she take him off the insurance for the car as he nearly caused me to crash into the car which would have possibly killed them.

She assured me there and then that she would not be letting him drive her car again. I saw the girls dad a few days later and he told me she had dumped him because she didn't want to possibly end up dead because of his recklessness while driving.

To me, it was the best conclusion.

 

[MotCO]

If the traffic beyond the junction only moves when the lights are green for the other road joining the junction, then when the lights turn green for your road, the road ahead is congested, and only clears after your lights change back to red. So what can you do?

 

[PeterC]

I can think of one where you can't see if there is a full car length clear until your front wheels are in the box. I have ended up half in and half out on more than one occasion. Luckily it isn't covered by cameras

 

[edwin_m]

And a new dimension to Khan's "congestion charge".... London traffic blocking up box junctions so another money making scam

The congestion charge reduces congestion by encouraging people not to drive if they don't really need to. Without it, there would be that much more traffic and box junctions would be even more likely to be blocked.

 

[DelW]

And a new dimension to Khan's "congestion charge".... London traffic blocking up box junctions so another money making scam

The rule about not entering box junctions has existed for decades across the whole country, it's nothing to do with mayor Khan or indeed TfL, other than enforcement being in their remit. The rule is no113 in my Highway Code from 1996, though it had been around long before that. I agree that it can be difficult in heavy traffic but the rule is there specifically to stop vehicles blocking cross traffic when the signals change. I don't think you have any case at all.

 

[Trackman]

I understand the rules of a yellow box junction but don't understand why somebody should be fined if they find themselves stuck due to rush hour traffic jams.

I have received a fine from TfL for entering and stopping in a signalled box junction when my exit wasn't clear, but on most days, in the morning rush hour, the exit is never clear due to bumper-to-bumper traffic. Traffic merges in from all directions and even buses find themselves stuck in the box junction . If I didn't move, I would just be holding up the traffic behind me even more

Do I have a case to appeal?. I begrudge paying "broke" TfL for "breaking Contravention 31 when it is perfectly clear that my exit would never be clear until the end of the rush hour

I feel your pain.
I've seen some real messed up yellow box junctions, like people going through on red or chancing their hand and clogging up the junction for about 5 minutes at least. Honest motorists get punished.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I can think of one where you can't see if there is a full car length clear until your front wheels are in the box. I have ended up half in and half out on more than one occasion. Luckily it isn't covered by cameras

My front wheels were in the box so yes, I was half-in, half-out. And I sat at the lights for at least 3 changes in the sequence

The rule about not entering box junctions has existed for decades across the whole country, it's nothing to do with mayor Khan or indeed TfL, other than enforcement being in their remit. The rule is no113 in my Highway Code from 1996, though it had been around long before that. I agree that it can be difficult in heavy traffic but the rule is there specifically to stop vehicles blocking cross traffic when the signals change. I don't think you have any case at all.

Um... I think I know that.... But it's in London and TfL are broke, so are trying to get cash by any means. I'm sure a lot of other councils will be going broke soon

If I wasn't going to work and still travelling at that time, I will just sit at the lights for as long as it takes then... And if that prevents an emergency vehicle getting through....?

 

[DelW]

Um... I think I know that.... But it's in London and TfL are broke, so are trying to get cash by any means. I'm sure a lot of other councils will be going broke soon

I don't know whether the money from traffic fines stays with TfL or not? I suspect it may go to the Treasury, since I'm fairly sure that's what happens to traffic fines imposed by police elsewhere in the country.

 

[ABB125]

If the traffic beyond the junction only moves when the lights are green for the other road joining the junction, then when the lights turn green for your road, the road ahead is congested, and only clears after your lights change back to red. So what can you do?

That is a daily occurrence at a box junction I used daily a few years ago. Made worse by the fact that invariably 2/3 cars turning onto the main road from the side road would jump the red light and do the "stop at almost 90° to the direction of traffic" routine. Absolute gridlock!

 

[Falcon1200]

Given that vehicles often stop clear of the yellow box junction but blocking the pedestrian crossing area, it's about time that the markings were extended to cover it, as the traffic light phase barely gives a fit person time to cross if they respond instantly to the green man and walk briskly, never mind having to negotiate around cars, buses, lorries etc.

 

[PeterC]

Given that vehicles often stop clear of the yellow box junction but blocking the pedestrian crossing area, it's about time that the markings were extended to cover it, as the traffic light phase barely gives a fit person time to cross if they respond instantly to the green man and walk briskly, never mind having to negotiate around cars, buses, lorries etc.

Remembering of course that to be legal the exit must be visible when you enter the box.

 

[Falcon1200]

Remembering of course that to be legal the exit must be visible when you enter the box.

Indeed, but the issue is vehicles passing the traffic light at green but stopping immediately afterwards, before entering the yellow box, because their exit is not clear - Quite correctly of course. However if the lights then change the vehicle is left blocking the pedestrian route across the road.

 

[stuu]

And a new dimension to Khan's "congestion charge".... London traffic blocking up box junctions so another money making scam

Why is Khan's congestion charge? London has had a congestion charge for 20 years.

How can it be a scam? You were in the wrong, as you openly admit

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Why is Khan's congestion charge? London has had a congestion charge for 20 years.

How can it be a scam? You were in the wrong, as you openly admit

Clearly you have misunderstood the sarcasm in my post.

I am well aware that the London congestion charge has nothing to do with box junction offences

 

[zwk500]

Given that vehicles often stop clear of the yellow box junction but blocking the pedestrian crossing area, it's about time that the markings were extended to cover it, as the traffic light phase barely gives a fit person time to cross if they respond instantly to the green man and walk briskly, never mind having to negotiate around cars, buses, lorries etc.

I think it should just be a separate rule that it's illegal to stop blocking a marked pedestrian crossing - I certainly try and avoid doing it where possible.

With the Yellow box junctions in London, there do seem to be plenty that are never going to be possible to legally comply with because somebody else will ignore their lights and block the exit/path. These junctions should just be given up as yellow box and have the light sequences tweaked.

 

[Basil Jet]

I think it should just be a separate rule that it's illegal to stop blocking a marked pedestrian crossing - I certainly try and avoid doing it where possible.

With the Yellow box junctions in London, there do seem to be plenty that are never going to be possible to legally comply with because somebody else will ignore their lights and block the exit/path. These junctions should just be given up as yellow box and have the light sequences tweaked.

There was one in Holborn on a corner where you couldn't see the exit until after you entered - it's now been reduced in size.

I think box junctions should have lanes marked across them and it should be illegal to change lane in them - at the moment you can enter a box where the exit is clear and the car next to you can cut across into the space you were going to take, thus forcing you to end up stuck on the box when you did nothing wrong.

 

[PeterC]

There was one in Holborn on a corner where you couldn't see the exit until after you entered - it's now been reduced in size.

That was after somebody went to court over their FPN and had it thrown out.

 

[stuu]

Clearly you have misunderstood the sarcasm in my post.

I am well aware that the London congestion charge has nothing to do with box junction offences

So why mention it then? There is no obvious sarcasm in your post.

 

[yorkie]

If there is a queue of traffic and your exit is not clear, do not enter the box junction. If you are unsure if the exit will be clear or not, hold back until you can be sure.

I don't see why a fine wouldn't apply in the circumstances described here.

There is a box junction near York station (south entrance, not the main entrance) which is regularly abused my motorists. I personally can get round them but many other road users (notably emergency vehicles) would not be able to. I will challenge them if I am able to do so and if I have time.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If there is a queue of traffic and your exit is not clear, do not enter the box junction. If you are unsure if the exit will be clear or not, hold back until you can be sure.

I don't see why a fine wouldn't apply in the circumstances described here.

There is a box junction near York station (south entrance, not the main entrance) which is regularly abused my motorists. I personally can get round them but many other road users (notably emergency vehicles) would not be able to. I will challenge them if I am able to do so and if I have time.

Yes, great in theory

But when 2 two-lane red-route A roads converge on a signalled yellow box junction and motorists regularly block it up in early morning rush hour one cannot hold back. Every other route is snarled up so there's no other way. And that's even before there's a rail strike.... Emergency vehicles have to use the bus lane or pass on the opposite side of the road in front of oncoming traffic

 

[yorkie]

Yes, great in theory

But when 2 two-lane red-route A roads converge on a signalled yellow box junction and motorists regularly block it up in early morning rush hour one cannot hold back. Every other route is snarled up so there's no other way. And that's even before there's a rail strike.... Emergency vehicles have to use the bus lane or pass on the opposite side of the road in front of oncoming traffic

Can you find the location on Google Street view and link it here?

Have you raised this with the relevant authority?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Don't know how to link but it's where the A20 meets the A210 and A2213 towards Blackheath and Kidbrooke. Traffic from the A205 also comes up here to avoid the queues further up the A205 towards Hither Green

Yes, I have filed an appeal (but not hopeful...)

 

[MotCO]

Don't know how to link but it's where the A20 meets the A210 and A2213 towards Blackheath and Kidbrooke. Traffic from the A205 also comes up here to avoid the queues further up the A205 towards Hither Green

Yes, I have filed an appeal (but not hopeful...)

Is it here?

Blackheath · London

London

www.google.com

 

[43066]

Can you find the location on Google Street view and link it here?

Have you raised this with the relevant authority?

Dropped pin
Near Eltham Rd, London

51°27'12.5"N 0°01'34.1"E

maps.google.com

Looks like here!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Can you find the location on Google Street view and link it here?

Have you raised this with the relevant authority?

Dropped pin
Near Eltham Rd, London

51°27'12.5"N 0°01'34.1"E

maps.google.com

Looks like here!

Yup thanks

Is it here?

Blackheath · London

London

www.google.com

Yes !

 

[island]

I live in the locality of this junction and can readily sympathise with the OP. It is a very tiresome junction especially for traffic coming from the southeast direction and heading north or east. I will take some photos next time I pass that way in case there may be any defective road markings or such.

Which way was the car travelling when the alleged contravention occurred? If turning right you may stop on a box junction if oncoming traffic prevents you from making your turn.