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Yeomans to withdraw from several Hereford local routes

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MedwayValiant

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A question if I may.

Are Yeomans Travel and Lugg Valley Primrose actually the same company? They appear to share a website and other social media presences, and the latter have not been mentioned in the present discussion as possible contenders for the routes being vacated by the former.
 
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M803UYA

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A question if I may.

Are Yeomans Travel and Lugg Valley Primrose actually the same company? They appear to share a website and other social media presences, and the latter have not been mentioned in the present discussion as possible contenders for the routes being vacated by the former.
They're two limited companies controlled by the same person.
 

Dai Corner

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A question if I may.

Are Yeomans Travel and Lugg Valley Primrose actually the same company? They appear to share a website and other social media presences, and the latter have not been mentioned in the present discussion as possible contenders for the routes being vacated by the former.
According to Companies House Nigel and Susan Yeomans are Directors of both companies.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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A question if I may.

Are Yeomans Travel and Lugg Valley Primrose actually the same company? They appear to share a website and other social media presences, and the latter have not been mentioned in the present discussion as possible contenders for the routes being vacated by the former.
Yeomans purchased the former Primrose Trave/Lugg Valley some years ago and vehicles have moved between the two fleets.

Mind you, these bus barons axing services to please the shareholders......
 

820KDV

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I'm sure this won't be the only case of services being withdrawn or scaled back whilst Local Transport Authorities are waiting for their pot of gold to arrive from the DfT.
Probably not, but this week someone from DfT told a regional meeting of LTA transport officers, in no uncertain terms, that BSIP "gold" must not be used to prop-up services in this way. He was absolutely definite that it is not the DfT's role to subsidise these services, but LTAs should seek any monies needed to do so through their local government finance settlement. Yes, that was news to us, too!

In the LTA I work for we are facing the withdrawal of a major commercial route along one side of our area. But BSIP can't help, so unless we find the money ourselves, the service will be lost. But, it is quite possible that, if the DfT like the look of it, our bid to turn an hourly tendered service across the top of our area might get BSIP money and be increased to half hourly in the week, probably with the addition of an evening and Sunday timetable which it doesn't currently have. They might even fund Real Time Passenger Information at bus stops to assist in the service up-lift "package". Meanwhile long-standing displays along the withdrawn route will display something like "No service from this stop".
 

Busaholic

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Probably not, but this week someone from DfT told a regional meeting of LTA transport officers, in no uncertain terms, that BSIP "gold" must not be used to prop-up services in this way. He was absolutely definite that it is not the DfT's role to subsidise these services, but LTAs should seek any monies needed to do so through their local government finance settlement. Yes, that was news to us, too!

In the LTA I work for we are facing the withdrawal of a major commercial route along one side of our area. But BSIP can't help, so unless we find the money ourselves, the service will be lost. But, it is quite possible that, if the DfT like the look of it, our bid to turn an hourly tendered service across the top of our area might get BSIP money and be increased to half hourly in the week, probably with the addition of an evening and Sunday timetable which it doesn't currently have. They might even fund Real Time Passenger Information at bus stops to assist in the service up-lift "package". Meanwhile long-standing displays along the withdrawn route will display something like "No service from this stop".
Down here in guinea pig area Cornwall we have totally subsidised services run by the new(ish) Transport for Cornwall, often totally empty for most, if not all, of their journey, unsurprising as many have no timetables posted at stops despite having run for well over a year. Sometimes there is no mention of one of their services at a stop from which all services are supposedly listed. As you say though, if the other, established operator (First) which now runs all its services commercially decided to prune a timetable or even a complete service there'd be no guarantee that Transport for Cornwall would even consider supplying a replacement. Madness.
 

carlberry

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Probably not, but this week someone from DfT told a regional meeting of LTA transport officers, in no uncertain terms, that BSIP "gold" must not be used to prop-up services in this way. He was absolutely definite that it is not the DfT's role to subsidise these services, but LTAs should seek any monies needed to do so through their local government finance settlement. Yes, that was news to us, too!

In the LTA I work for we are facing the withdrawal of a major commercial route along one side of our area. But BSIP can't help, so unless we find the money ourselves, the service will be lost. But, it is quite possible that, if the DfT like the look of it, our bid to turn an hourly tendered service across the top of our area might get BSIP money and be increased to half hourly in the week, probably with the addition of an evening and Sunday timetable which it doesn't currently have. They might even fund Real Time Passenger Information at bus stops to assist in the service up-lift "package". Meanwhile long-standing displays along the withdrawn route will display something like "No service from this stop".
Basically the new money must be used on things that make the government look good and can generate PR photos for MPs. Shiny new electric buses - tick, nice new facilities such as bus stop displays that will stop working next year when the contract needs renewing- tick, new bus routes that havent run before and will be withdrawn as soon as the money runs out - tick, new bus lanes - only a tick if no car drivers complain, existing bus routes - boring, no chance.
 

Dai Corner

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Basically the new money must be used on things that make the government look good and can generate PR photos for MPs. Shiny new electric buses - tick, nice new facilities such as bus stop displays that will stop working next year when the contract needs renewing- tick, new bus routes that havent run before and will be withdrawn as soon as the money runs out - tick, new bus lanes - only a tick if no car drivers complain, existing bus routes - boring, no chance.
Not "provide better information and waiting facilities for and improve reliability of tendered routes to attract more passengers so they become commercially viable and no longer a drain on the public purse"?
 

Mugby

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I'm confused by the part of Yeoman's public statement which says that Government financial support to bus companies finished at the end of September.

My understanding is that Government financial support (related to the pandemic) finishes in March next year. Which is correct?
 

philthetube

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Quite correct, we're just surmising here.

What we do know from the press release is that 50% of the customers no longer use the network.

Which is why I ask the question, why not provide 50% of the service accordingly, given that they already operate 'Saturday' timetables?

It's where I'd look as a first move before withdrawal of the services. I'd also be looking at different routings to service the existing customers.
Does this mean that 50% of commuters get a service to work, and the other 50% one home, cut commuter or services which serve schools and you immediately lose 2 journeys daily. 50% reductions are possible on frequent services but not on hourly ones.
 

RT4038

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I'm confused by the part of Yeoman's public statement which says that Government financial support to bus companies finished at the end of September.

My understanding is that Government financial support (related to the pandemic) finishes in March next year. Which is correct?
I believe a two thirds reduction in support level in September, followed by complete withdrawal at end of March.
 

Dai Corner

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I believe a two thirds reduction in support level in September, followed by complete withdrawal at end of March.
From Buses magazine

The Department for Transport (DfT) has released further details of the Bus Recovery Grant (BRG), which replaced Covid-19 Bus Services Support Grant from September 1, although some elements were still to be finalised even as the scheme started.

English operators will essentially receive funds to bridge the gap between current revenue, and the equivalent as operating two years ago, on a route-by-route basis. DfT refers to this as 'lost farebox revenue,' and operators will have to provide data on a month-by-month basis in order to claim the variable grant.

Monthly reports will also have to be provided to local transport authorities (LTA), detailing proposed changes, the reasons for them and justifying their actions. In most circumstances, the LTA must agree to the changes for BRG funding to apply.

Separately, the DfT has also told LTAs that it expects them to continue to pay an enhanced level of concessionary fare reimbursement, rather than payments reflecting actual travel. However, it would no longer be at the full rate, nor is it likely to apply for the whole of the next financial year.

Operators must respond by September 17 to be eligible for the £226.5m fund.
 

Citistar

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Probably not, but this week someone from DfT told a regional meeting of LTA transport officers, in no uncertain terms, that BSIP "gold" must not be used to prop-up services in this way. He was absolutely definite that it is not the DfT's role to subsidise these services, but LTAs should seek any monies needed to do so through their local government finance settlement. Yes, that was news to us, too!

In the LTA I work for we are facing the withdrawal of a major commercial route along one side of our area. But BSIP can't help, so unless we find the money ourselves, the service will be lost. But, it is quite possible that, if the DfT like the look of it, our bid to turn an hourly tendered service across the top of our area might get BSIP money and be increased to half hourly in the week, probably with the addition of an evening and Sunday timetable which it doesn't currently have. They might even fund Real Time Passenger Information at bus stops to assist in the service up-lift "package". Meanwhile long-standing displays along the withdrawn route will display something like "No service from this stop".

This obsession over new projects has seen the progressive worsening of every government's public transport policies since 1997. By not supporting the unsexy, non-headline-grabbing, core day-to-day stuff, whole networks are in danger of falling over at the expense of these glamour schemes which have a very poor record of becoming sustainable without subsidy. We don't need all these millions of pounds being spent with consultancies, putting together bid packages to be read by trolls at the DfT. What the industry desperately needs is money to support and strengthen a realistic network of services. Money to run buses, not write glossy documents about running buses. If the DfT wants to set goals for things such as multi-operator ticketing and vehicle standards, then that's fine, but this infernal cycle of dreamland paperwork around the civil service needs to stop.

I'm confused by the part of Yeoman's public statement which says that Government financial support to bus companies finished at the end of September.

My understanding is that Government financial support (related to the pandemic) finishes in March next year. Which is correct?

The original grant was CBSSG which ended in September. This was based on mileage and a number of other cost metrics. The replacement "Bus Recovery Grant" is horrendously complicated and supposed to be based upon a set of normal baseline data for what operators would expect to be normally generating in terms of income from each service. This is then compared with actual takings and a reimbursement proportional to a percentage of how much the DfT has to spend will be repaid.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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This obsession over new projects has seen the progressive worsening of every government's public transport policies since 1997. By not supporting the unsexy, non-headline-grabbing, core day-to-day stuff, whole networks are in danger of falling over at the expense of these glamour schemes which have a very poor record of becoming sustainable without subsidy. We don't need all these millions of pounds being spent with consultancies, putting together bid packages to be read by trolls at the DfT. What the industry desperately needs is money to support and strengthen a realistic network of services. Money to run buses, not write glossy documents about running buses. If the DfT wants to set goals for things such as multi-operator ticketing and vehicle standards, then that's fine, but this infernal cycle of dreamland paperwork around the civil service needs to stop.
Think there are two things to really look at here.

The Labour Government really failed to take the opportunity that they had and really champion public transport. Spending on the NHS and schools was obviously much needed but they never did anything fundamental in terms of public transport and especially buses. They did begin to start to level up things with the fuel duty escalator to impact private car usage, though the monies raised were used for health, education and welfare. They gave the Rural Bus Challenge funding to local authorities as a way of dealing with the public mood after the fuel protests.

Now, it's right that funding is devolved down to local authorities (than the dead hand of DfT) and some LAs were sensible whilst others just blew the cash on outlandish stuff. Sunday service from Yeovil to Chard? Or Wells to Frome? Arguably, we are seeing EXACTLY the same stupidity in Herefordshire now.... They announced services to new, free services on a Sunday and these included town services in Ledbury and Ross - the mind boggles!

Then there was the election bribe of the twirly pass; something that I actually welcomed but soon appreciated that it was the government writing a cheque but for the industry to cash in many respects. A something for nothing give away to Marjorie and Gerald that was so uneven that hitherto reasonable local routes were suddenly no longer viable.

However, then we saw the cutting of the austerity years from 2010, and the pernicious way in which central govt went about things. The cut of the Fuel Duty Rebate (rebranded as a grant), increased cost pressures from pensions contributions, cutting funding to LAs so they carried the can for what services, bus or otherwise, were cut locally, and the tweaking of ENCTS so firms don't get the same remuneration. That one Tory administration is making capital on repairing the damage of another is almost satirical. That Hereford could lose daytime buses but Leominster town service gains free Sunday ones is almost beyond parody.
 

Typhoon

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I don't think this has been raised before, apologies if it has. It is some years since I've been to Hereford but much of Yeomans' 72 appears to be covered by Sargeants route B, started at the end of May. Assuming this is true (and there is a Solo on it as I type) this must have taken some revenue from Yeomans. Similarly Sargeants' route A appears to duplicate part of Lugg Valley's 76 (with an earlier start). I wouldn't think Hereford routes justify two operators.

I can remember the name 'Sargeants' from when I worked for Hereford and Worcester over 30 years ago, apparently a traditional marches bus company but the company was taken over in late 2019 and (according to its website) the fleet refreshed. I am wondering whether there is a little more to this than is obvious?
I don't know whether there is anyone on the ground who could comment?
 

Mwanesh

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The passenger industry is in deep trouble. People are bashing Yeomans here. They have done the figures and realised its not good to carry on. I look at Notices and Procceedings. The number of bus companies starting up is nearly zero.
 

markymark2000

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The passenger industry is in deep trouble. People are bashing Yeomans here. They have done the figures and realised its not good to carry on. I look at Notices and Procceedings. The number of bus companies starting up is nearly zero.
Much deeper issues with start ups than passenger numbers. Trust me! that's another topic though.
 

Flange Squeal

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As rumoured, Sargeants have won the tenders. From the Herefordshire Council website:

Herefordshire Council has moved swiftly to secure bus services in Hereford following the announcement by Yeomans that it was withdrawing a large proportion of its commercial services from January 2022.

The council has awarded a contract to Sargeants Brothers Ltd to operate a number of temporary bus services in Hereford from Tuesday 4 January 2022. This will ensure the continuation of essential services, and will reinstate buses for Belmont and the Royal National College for the Blind at Venns Lane following the withdrawal of services for these locations in September. Sargeants existing A service will also provide an essential link between the Tesco city bus station and Tupsley for pupils travelling to Bishops School.
The following services will be operated by Sargeants:
  • 71B – Credenhill – Stretton Sugwas – Moor Farm (for Whitecross School) – Hereford
  • 75 – Redhill – Belmont – Hunderton – Hereford (off-peak)
  • 81B – Barrs Court Road - College Green – Victoria Park – Venns Lane - Hereford
  • 88/88B – Hinton – Putson – The Pastures – Redhill - Hereford (Saturday service)
  • 461 – Kington – Hereford will serve Credenhill village centre on Sundays
Timetable information can be found at https://wwww.sargeantsbros.com/timetables/
Cllr John Harrington, Cabinet member for transport and infrastructure, said: “I am delighted that we will have a continuation of services for city bus users and this will include reinstatement of some routes which were withdrawn in September. We are also looking at the longer term provision for the city to implement our ambitions for an improved overall service and are awaiting government feedback on the request for £18.1m from the national bus strategy. We have invited proposals from operators and will consider these early in the New Year.”
 

markymark2000

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Yeomans has changed their mind on the 88/88A and an interesting one on the 74. Interesting how these decisions got made since the announcement that Sargents got the contracts.

74, while the 'A' variation may be removed, the route will remain every 15 minutes (Strange one given it will not reduce the PVR unless they have 0 minute layovers). Also an improved Sunday service. Seeing as they are getting rid of the other routes, the 74 will now get an hourly Sunday service.
The 88/88A will remain, half hourly combined, Mon-Fri, between school times.
 

M803UYA

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Yeomans has changed their mind on the 88/88A and an interesting one on the 74. Interesting how these decisions got made since the announcement that Sargents got the contracts.

74, while the 'A' variation may be removed, the route will remain every 15 minutes (Strange one given it will not reduce the PVR unless they have 0 minute layovers). Also an improved Sunday service. Seeing as they are getting rid of the other routes, the 74 will now get an hourly Sunday service.
The 88/88A will remain, half hourly combined, Mon-Fri, between school times.
I guess nothing focuses the mind like another operator getting a foothold on tendered work as then they will look for commercial pickings.
 

rcro

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It’s not a lot of change from what was announced - 74 was going to return to its usual route as the A varient was only added in September as cover for the withdrawn Belmont route (which the council has now decided to reintroduce under tender). Given half of Hunderton has been flattened in recent years, for a commercial venture sitting on layover for an extra couple of minutes is better value for money than sending 2 buses per hour around. Any sort of commercial Sunday service is a welcome surprise based on previous communications.

Commercial 88 on weekdays is a welcome change, clearly built around schools contracts and I suspect following some dialogue from the council rather than fear of Sargeants taking over the whole world. As I’ve said before, Yeomans aren’t in the market for vast commercial services and the fact they’ve operated them for so long is by accident rather than planned.

I do wish Sargeants well with their sudden expansion. I suspect they will not find building up operations as easy as Yeomans did, starting from a smaller base. At least to an outsider they are much better presented and probably have a better impression with public from this history of being a small family business run out from a small town. The new owners clearly want to expand, and I’ve had in my head for a while that they want to move the business from Kington to Hereford. If they think they can make it work then good luck to them!
 

carlberry

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I guess nothing focuses the mind like another operator getting a foothold on tendered work as then they will look for commercial pickings.
Sargeants already had commercial Hereford services with their A and B routes.
 

SuperLuke2334

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Yeomans are still going strong post the timetable change, and I'm constantly seeing more Sargeants buses around the area daily. Its a shame that Yeomans did have to resort to this, I use them every day to get to and from school, and they are a pleasure to travel on, the drivers are also really nice. Hopefully Yeomans can bring back some of the services should pre-Covid levels of passenger numbers start to return.
 

markymark2000

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Yeomans are still going strong post the timetable change, and I'm constantly seeing more Sargeants buses around the area daily. Its a shame that Yeomans did have to resort to this, I use them every day to get to and from school, and they are a pleasure to travel on, the drivers are also really nice. Hopefully Yeomans can bring back some of the services should pre-Covid levels of passenger numbers start to return.
I want to know how Sergeants are covering their costs. Most of the routes have buses sit around for 20-30 mins after each trip.
 

Dai Corner

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I want to know how Sergeants are covering their costs. Most of the routes have buses sit around for 20-30 mins after each trip.
Herefordshire Council are covering Sergeants costs (plus some profit presumably) aren't they?
 

markymark2000

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Herefordshire Council are covering Sergeants costs (plus some profit presumably) aren't they?
It's a tender yes but unless Sergeants knew how they would operate the routes and put in a higher price or Herefordshire Council are giving away money to run an additional bus because Sargeants don't do mass interworking to run the buses on a PVR of 2 I think it would work out as rather then 3.
 
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