• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

York station after the ticket office closes

Status
Not open for further replies.

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,777
After the ticket office closes at York station does it become an 'unstaffed' station in that a full range of discounted fares should be able to be purchased if boarding a train after this time from there?

I got thinking about it yesterday as I caught a late night Northern service from there and couldn't see any TVMs around the station other than a couple of card only Virgin ones near Burger King. To clarify I was sold an off peak ticket on board no problems.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
105,345
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If there is a card-only TVM that will issue the ticket you require, and you intend to pay by card, you must use it. You may only pay on board if you wish to pay cash/RTVs.

If there is a cash and card TVM that will issue the ticket you require, you cannot purchase on board unless you intend to pay using RTVs.

That's the legal position as I understand it, anyway.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Last time I was there they had 2 card and cash machines just by the travel centre
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
105,345
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
In which case payment on board by cash/RTV is acceptable, but payment by card must be done at the TVM.

Some guards may let this go, but if you met an RPI and were prosecuted that is what it would come down to.
 

bearhugger

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2015
Messages
666
Location
Middlesbrough
If there is a card-only TVM that will issue the ticket you require, and you intend to pay by card, you must use it. You may only pay on board if you wish to pay cash/RTVs.

If there is a cash and card TVM that will issue the ticket you require, you cannot purchase on board unless you intend to pay using RTVs.

That's the legal position as I understand it, anyway.

Would you be able to purchase a discounted ticket on-board if you pretended you didn't have a card and only had cash?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
105,345
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Would you be able to purchase a discounted ticket on-board if you pretended you didn't have a card and only had cash?

The policy on this varies by TOC. LM's policy, while not specifically relevant here, appears to be that it is about how you WANT to pay.

If a card was not visible in the wallet, however, you'd be in the clear.

If you attempted to pay card on board you would clearly not.
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
Would you be able to purchase a discounted ticket on-board if you pretended you didn't have a card and only had cash?

It should have nothing to do with having a card, just whether or not that was your intended method of payment. Cash is accepted, so the choice to use cash should be available. In addition, the presence of a card does not, of course, mean that the card is available to be used. Nor does an RPI have any authority to examine the contents of one's wallet. The statement "I wish to pay by cash" should be all that is required.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
It's surely only a matter of time before the railway becomes no cash like London Buses and British Airways.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
73,882
Location
Yorkshire
Would you be able to purchase a discounted ticket on-board if you pretended you didn't have a card and only had cash?
There is no need to "pretend" anything. You may purchase tickets using a valid payment method: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx

If your intended payment method is taken by the TVMs then you are compelled to use them as that would be the first opportunity to pay.

If your intended payment method is cash/RTV and there is no facility at your origin station to take that payment method, then you may board the train without having purchased a ticket, and be entitled to the full range of fares on board.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,440
Location
Bolton
Are there really cash TVMs at York? I've never seen one. It doesn't help that the majority of TVMs are inside the booking office, and you can't get to them when it's closed.

There are no TVMs anywhere near the entrances to the station from Leeman Road, the Ouse path, or the long stay car park.
 
Last edited:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
73,882
Location
Yorkshire
There are no TVMs anywhere near the entrances to the station from Leeman Road, the Ouse path, or the long stay car park.
There is one near the exit for long stay car park near Platform 1.

I don't think I've ever tried to use it with cash so I'm not sure to be honest. I can't check until Sunday.
 

causton

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
5,504
Location
Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
There is one near the exit for long stay car park near Platform 1.

I don't think I've ever tried to use it with cash so I'm not sure to be honest. I can't check until Sunday.

Why do you need to, when someone from NRE has done so for you? :lol:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stati...otDetails.aspx?StdCode=SME_YRK&HotspotId=8291

It claims that cash payment is accepted and it looks like it has a coin and note slot from the photo.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stati...otDetails.aspx?StdCode=SME_YRK&HotspotId=8268

Same for these ones by the entrance - there is a sign that says "Use cash and card" above the one on the left.

I haven't been to York in a while and neither have they by the look of these machines in the photos, so if Virgin have made them card-only or replaced them with other card-only machines I would not know!
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
73,882
Location
Yorkshire
They've certainly changed some aspects of them, so I couldn't be certain without checking.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,440
Location
Bolton
I thought all of the TVMs at York had been completely replaced? At other VTEC managed stations all of the old ones are gone.

This only reinforces my view that a TVM must be provided at every entrance to a station if the train companies wish to enforce requirement to buy before boarding.
 
Last edited:

LiftFan

Member
Joined
27 May 2016
Messages
352
I'm certain the railways won't become cashless given the amount of young teenagers who travel alone or with friends, of which none will have a credit or debit card. I ran into a problem a year or two ago when I almost got prosecuted at Bath Spa for travelling from Frome without a ticket (The office closes before midday and the machine is card only for some idiotic reason) and there was no-one to purchase one from on the train...
 

rmt4ever

Member
Joined
13 May 2013
Messages
691
Location
RMT
In which case payment on board by cash/RTV is acceptable, but payment by card must be done at the TVM.

Some guards may let this go, but if you met an RPI and were prosecuted that is what it would come down to.

What if you wanted to use say £1 of cash and the rest in card?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
73,882
Location
Yorkshire
I'm certain the railways won't become cashless given the amount of young teenagers who travel alone or with friends, of which none will have a credit or debit card.
Some may have debit cards.
I ran into a problem a year or two ago when I almost got prosecuted at Bath Spa for travelling from Frome without a ticket (The office closes before midday and the machine is card only for some idiotic reason) and there was no-one to purchase one from on the train...
A prosecution in these circumstances would fail (assuming you were not attempting to get away without paying at destination)
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
I'm just going to post some of, what I believe to be, the most relevant quotes from the National Rail Conditions of Travel for people to read because it seems like that might be necessary here. If anyone wishes to add further notes that's fine by me.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage said:
1 The National Rail Conditions of Travel define the ‘Agreement’ that comes into
effect between you and the Train Companies that provide scheduled rail services
on the National Rail Network, when you purchase a rail Ticket.
This summary provides a quick overview of the key responsibilities of Train
Companies and passengers contained in these Conditions.
It is important, however, that you read the relevant sections of the Conditions
if you want a full understanding of the responsibilities of Train Companies and
passengers.

2 The key responsibilities of Train Companies (‘we’) are:

....

• We will provide a range of ways in which you can buy a Ticket before your
journey and will ensure that you are treated fairly if you are unable to purchase a Ticket because advertised facilities are unavailable.

....

The key responsibilities of passengers (‘you’) are:

• You must purchase, where possible, a valid Ticket before you board a train
service on the National Rail Network.

....

B. Introduction

....

4 When you are present in or using stations, train services and other facilities on
the National Rail Network, you are also subject to the Railway Byelaws. A copy of
these can be found at www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws or ask at a station Ticket office for details.

Please note that neither a Train Company’s staff nor a Licenced Retailer’s staff have the authority to waive or change these Conditions unless they are specifically allowed to within these Conditions.

C. Planning your journey and buying your Ticket

....

6. You must have a valid Ticket to travel

6.1 We will ensure that you have a reasonable opportunity to purchase your Ticket
before you travel.

6.2 Tickets can be purchased at staffed Ticket offices or through self-service Ticket
machines at many stations, and can also be purchased from a range of Train
Companies and other Licenced Retailers online and by telephone. You may also
purchase a Ticket through use of a smartcard or registered payment card in areas
where such schemes apply.

INFORMATION: ‘Ticket’ includes a validated contactless payment card where accepted. The ‘Tickets’ definition in Appendix B gives more information.

6.3 You must have in your possession a valid Ticket before you board a train unless
one of the following circumstances applies:

(a) At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a
Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine
in working order

and, where notices indicate that you are in a Penalty Fares area

you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing
machine at the station where you start your journey – see section 10 for more
information about Penalty Fares; or

(b) Where you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised
member of staff or notice of the Train Company whose service you intend to
board; or

(c) You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are
departing from are not suitably accessible.

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.

6.4 Children under five years of age may travel free of charge without a Ticket
providing that they are travelling with a passenger holding a valid Ticket or other
authority to travel.

6.5 Children aged between 5 years and 15 years must have a valid Ticket for travel
but are entitled to a “child” discount on most Tickets. If a discount is not
available, it will be made clear to you when you buy your Ticket.

6.6 Special arrangements apply for accompanied children aged under 11 in the
London pay as you go zonal fare area. For details please go to:
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/travel-for-under-18s/travelling-with-children
INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.

....

9. Travelling without a valid Ticket

9.1 Travelling without a valid Ticket (which includes, where relevant, any supporting
documentation such as a Railcard), or being unable to present them when asked
is a serious matter.

If you believe that there are reasonable circumstances that led to you travelling
without a valid Ticket or being able to present one, then you should explain these
to the member of Train Company staff who has asked to inspect your Ticket.

INFORMATION: This applies, for example, for some types of self-print ticket which are only valid when carried with the appropriate ID stated at the time of booking.

9.2 If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked, we are permitted, in law,
to take one of the following measures:

a) To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see section 10
below); or

b) To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly
served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts
or special terms, or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train
that you are on; or

c) To report you for prosecution.

If you are unable to present a valid Ticket or to pay a fare (including a part
payment of a Penalty Fare to the value of the Ticket required) when requested,
you will be required to provide your name and address so that the matter can be
followed up.

10. Penalty Fares

10.1 Some Train Companies operate a Penalty Fares scheme. All such schemes
operate on the same basis, and are approved by the Department for
Transport. More information on Penalty Fare schemes and a list of the Train
Companies operating such schemes can be found at www.nationalrail.co.uk/
tickets.

10.2 Train Companies are required to ensure that warning notices are clearly
displayed on trains and stations where such schemes operate. Within the
areas where such schemes operate, you may be charged a Penalty Fare if:

(a) You travel on a train service without a Ticket or Permit to Travel;

(b) You travel in first class accommodation with a standard class Ticket;

(c) You travel on a train service at a time when your Ticket is not valid;

(d) You travel with a Train Company for which your Ticket is not valid;

(e) You do not have the necessary supporting document(s), where required
(for example a valid Railcard or photocard).

....
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
20,719
After the ticket office closes at York station does it become an 'unstaffed' station in that a full range of discounted fares should be able to be purchased if boarding a train after this time from there?

I got thinking about it yesterday as I caught a late night Northern service from there and couldn't see any TVMs around the station other than a couple of card only Virgin ones near Burger King. To clarify I was sold an off peak ticket on board no problems.
The machines you saw by Burger King are cash & card TVMs.

Are there really cash TVMs at York? I've never seen one. It doesn't help that the majority of TVMs are inside the booking office, and you can't get to them when it's closed.
There really are. You need to look more closely!

There are no TVMs anywhere near the entrances to the station from Leeman Road, the Ouse path, or the long stay car park.
One card only machine on the way in from the long stay car park, as mentioned by Yorkie, and one at the entrance from the short stay car park, which you walk through on your way from the river path. There isn't one on the Leeman Road side of the station.

Why do you need to, when someone from NRE has done so for you? :lol:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stati...otDetails.aspx?StdCode=SME_YRK&HotspotId=8291

It claims that cash payment is accepted and it looks like it has a coin and note slot from the photo.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stati...otDetails.aspx?StdCode=SME_YRK&HotspotId=8268

Same for these ones by the entrance - there is a sign that says "Use cash and card" above the one on the left.

I haven't been to York in a while and neither have they by the look of these machines in the photos, so if Virgin have made them card-only or replaced them with other card-only machines I would not know!
They are very old photos!

I thought all of the TVMs at York had been completely replaced? At other VTEC managed stations all of the old ones are gone.
All VTEC TVMs have been replaced over the last 6 months, and there are 50% more than previously.
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
8,118
Location
Crayford
Is split payment offered at all? I see no reason why it should be, it is quite awkward and almost nobody would want to do it.

Unless RTV(s) and the ticket(s) required come to the same amount then I'd say that split payment is often required. I agree that splits between cash and card are unlikely though.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
105,345
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Unless RTV(s) and the ticket(s) required come to the same amount then I'd say that split payment is often required. I agree that splits between cash and card are unlikely though.

Ah, yes, didn't think of that. Though a need to use an RTV would I believe allow on-board payment. I have certainly walked past a TVM and boarded when I wished to use RTVs, and the Euston barrier staff didn't mind.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top