York to Harrogate signalling

[superkev]

I hear that theres some work going on between Knaresborogh and Skelton junctions with some LED signals erected and work on the crossings.
Perhaps the work to control the line from York has been advanced.
Does this leave the Whitby branch as the last outpost of semaphores and tokens in Northern land.
K

 

[Chris NS]

There's a few semaphores in northern Stockton.

 

[lincolnshire]

At present its a very staff heavy line between York and Harrogate with the amount of crossings between the two locations. Its easy to see why its been carried out as the plan is to run a more frequent service and the present S & T equipment must be about life expired.

 

[NoMorePacers]

There's also a few semaphores knocking about at Bridlington still.

Of course, if you also include the North West as "Northern land", then most of the Cumbrian Coast and some of the Furness Line has semaphore signalling, as well as semaphores at Rainford on the Kirkby branch.

 

[Darandio]

As alluded to in post #2, they still exist around Norton and Billingham. Nunthorpe is still semaphore too I believe?

 

[Chris NS]

As alluded to in post #2, they still exist around Norton and Billingham. Nunthorpe is still semaphore too I believe?

Yes, there is indeed - that ties into the single-track token operation controlled from Nunthorpe.

Norton is the bigger anomoly though, as that connects two significant population centres on a line that's otherwise coloured lights all the way.

 

[fireftrm]

The signalling work between Harrogate and Poppleton will not change the number of staff, all Level crossings and signaloboxes remain staffed as they are now - it is Electical Token Block to Tokenless block and the addition of stop signals for Whixley LC, a lengthened approach at Catton from the level crossing to the single line section to allow the signaller to accept a train into the station in both directions at the same time and tail light ID cameras at Cattal and Hammerton for the same reason. Road traffic lights at Marston Moor have already been fitted ahead of the signalling changes. The changes allow for less time for crossing loops (signallers don't have to leave their boxes to carry out token exchange) and thus increased frequencies can be timetabled

 

[superkev]

The signalling work between Harrogate and Poppleton will not change the number of staff, all Level crossings and signaloboxes remain staffed as they are now - it is Electical Token Block to Tokenless block and the addition of stop signals for Whixley LC, a lengthened approach at Catton from the level crossing to the single line section to allow the signaller to accept a train into the station in both directions at the same time and tail light ID cameras at Cattal and Hammerton for the same reason. Road traffic lights at Marston Moor have already been fitted ahead of the signalling changes. The changes allow for less time for crossing loops (signallers don't have to leave their boxes to carry out token exchange) and thus increased frequencies can be timetabled

Thanks.
Does that mean the existing locally worked Semaphores remain or is some or all of the line to be controlled from York ROC with new signals.
I suppose the final questions is will the line have more capacity or higher line speeds.l
K

 

[fireftrm]

Some of the semaphores will be replaced by LED colour light signals, but most are remaining. The ROC is not taking any more control of the line and so Poppleton remains the first box on the line. More capacity not higher line speeds

 

[superkev]

I hear that the single line part if the line between Harrogate and York will lose its traditional token system over 3 weekends finishing 5th Dec being replaced by tokenless block. End of an era.
K

 

[Scotrail88]

Is there any planned timetable improvements following this or will it just ensure a more robust service to prevent the signallers having to walk from platform to platform.

 

[LowLevel]

I hear that the single line part if the line between Harrogate and York will lose its traditional token system over 3 weekends finishing 5th Dec being replaced by tokenless block. End of an era.
K

Not before time, it was an antiquated method of working half a century ago

Given it is the method of choice for most preserved railways it is unlikely to be forgotten.

 

[bramling]

Not before time, it was an antiquated method of working half a century ago

Given it is the method of choice for most preserved railways it is unlikely to be forgotten.

A shame to see it go, especially as this line has been one of few if any places on the mainline network where it's still been possible to observe a token exchange happen on the move, no doubt not official practice!

 

[swissrailpassion]

There's also a few semaphores knocking about at Bridlington still.

Of course, if you also include the North West as "Northern land", then most of the Cumbrian Coast and some of the Furness Line has semaphore signalling, as well as semaphores at Rainford on the Kirkby branch.

Thee are 14 post or disc signals left at Bridlington until the new track layout is installed in February.

 

[fireftrm]

I hear that the single line part if the line between Harrogate and York will lose its traditional token system over 3 weekends finishing 5th Dec being replaced by tokenless block. End of an era.
K

If you'd read the thread you would have seen this was noted some time ago (Aug)

A shame to see it go, especially as this line has been one of few if any places on the mainline network where it's still been possible to observe a token exchange happen on the move, no doubt not official practice!

Very definitely not official practice, indeed a violation of the rules

 

[Gloster]

A shame to see it go, especially as this line has been one of few if any places on the mainline network where it's still been possible to observe a token exchange happen on the move, no doubt not official practice!

It was a breach of the rules, at least as far as DMUs were concerned, in the 1980s. Didn’t stop us, though.

 

[bramling]

It was a breach of the rules, at least as far as DMUs were concerned, in the 1980s. Didn’t stop us, though.

Indeed. I was very surprised to observe it happen on the Harrogate line (I won't post the location or time, but it was within the last few years). Clearly it was a driver and signalman known to each other, and both appeared what might be termed "time-served"!

 

[Colin1501]

Does anyone have a plan showing the changes?

 

[theblackwatch]

I gather the semaphores being replaced are the one approaching Cattal from Knaresborough, and the one approaching Poppleton from Hammerton.

 

[Scotrail88]

Can anyone explain what the difference will be with the new system. Obviously no need to hand out token but how is it carried out?
thanks in advance

 

[Colin1501]

The signalling work between Harrogate and Poppleton will not change the number of staff, all Level crossings and signaloboxes remain staffed as they are now - it is Electical Token Block to Tokenless block and the addition of stop signals for Whixley LC, a lengthened approach at Catton from the level crossing to the single line section to allow the signaller to accept a train into the station in both directions at the same time and tail light ID cameras at Cattal and Hammerton for the same reason. Road traffic lights at Marston Moor have already been fitted ahead of the signalling changes. The changes allow for less time for crossing loops (signallers don't have to leave their boxes to carry out token exchange) and thus increased frequencies can be timetabled

If Whixley is getting colour-light stop signals in each direction, does that mean its semaphore distants are being replaced as well? As the westbound one is currently below Cattal's starter, presumably that signal would become a 3-aspect colour-light.

 

[fireftrm]

If Whixley is getting colour-light stop signals in each direction, does that mean its semaphore distants are being replaced as well? As the westbound one is currently below Cattal's starter, presumably that signal would become a 3-aspect colour-light.

I believe so - may be a two aspect as led heads don't require individual lamps and single yellow may be all that's needed

 

[Mollman]

Can anyone explain what the difference will be with the new system. Obviously no need to hand out token but how is it carried out?
thanks in advance

Basic Operation​

To describe the basic operation of the system, let us assume that the signalman at box 'A' wishes to send a train to his colleague at 'B'. If the instruments are normal (and all else is in order in accordance with the Regulations) then A pushes his 'offer' button - provided that B turns his acceptance switch to 'Accept' (or has done so already), then the indicators on both instruments will go to 'Train Accepted' and the lock on the section signal at A will be released. When the train passes the section signal it will occupy a track-circuit, which causes the section signal to change to a red aspect and both block indicators to go to 'Train In Section'. When the train arrives at B and passes beyond the home signal it will operate a treadle, and occupy and then clear two track-circuits in succession - upon completion of this process a 'train arrived' condition will be registered within the system. When the signalman at B has seen the train arrive clear of the single-line complete with tail-lamp he returns his acceptance switch to 'Normal' and presses his 'Train Arrived' button - if the 'train arrived' condition has been proved then both indicators will return to 'Normal' and the block is clear.

It must be emphasised that, when A presses his 'Offer' button, there is no visual or audible indication at B that a train is being offered. The design assumption with this system was that trains would run according to the timetable, and so B would have placed his switch to 'Accept' already in anticipation. (It is possible for both signalmen to keep their switches at 'Accept', so that the first one to 'offer' gains the section.) This 'pre-acceptance' feature means that B does not have to be present in his signal-box in order for A to offer or despatch the train. If B should find it necessary subsequently to stop the train leaving A then, provided that the block is still in the 'Train Accepted' condition, he has merely to return his switch to 'Normal' - the indicators will return to 'Normal' and the release on the section signal at A will be cancelled. The section signal is normally a colour-light, so cancellation of the release causes the signal to change automatically to a red aspect, even if signalman A is not present in the signal-box to replace the signal lever. (It is permitted to have a semaphore section signal, in which case the cancellation causes a warning buzzer to sound continuously until the signal lever is returned to normal.) Conversely A can cancel his 'offer' by turning his own switch to 'Accept' temporarily, whereupon both block indicators will revert to 'Normal'.

More details can be read here:
http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/gen/signal/tkblock.html

 

[Colin1501]

I visited Poppleton station in 1996, and at that time there was a new colour- light signal, with the head covered up, half way along the down platform. I went back in 2014, and the post was still there, looking very rusty, and the head had been removed. On a further visit in 2016, the post had gone as well! So it looks as if something like the present changes was considered almost 25 years ago, and then abandoned.

 

[Novern Uproar]

It will be sad to see 'token working' on the line disappear, but increased rail capacity is certainly required. There is room to double most of the line, however that will require significant investment. Big housing developments are planned for the largely rural area along the A59, notably around Hammerton and the locals are rightly not happy.

 

[superkev]

More details can be read here:
http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/gen/signal/tkblock.html

Thankyou most interesting.
Presumably that means the existing block instruments will be replaced. K

 

[johntea]

Is there any planned timetable improvements following this or will it just ensure a more robust service to prevent the signallers having to walk from platform to platform.

I think there are plans to eventually extend the Knaresborough services to York (so 2 services an hour Leeds - York via Harrogate) but it’s all been delayed due to Covid so I reckon is now at least still a couple of years away

 

[Pinza-C55]

Is there any planned timetable improvements following this or will it just ensure a more robust service to prevent the signallers having to walk from platform to platform.

There's currently a scheme to build a new village/small town of I think 3000 houses near Hammerton station extending all the way to Cattal station. This would massively the increase the number of commuters from both stations and would logically make the case for redoubling the line. Hopefully this will have been taken into account with the new signalling.

 

[YorksLad12]

There's currently a scheme to build a new village/small town of I think 3000 houses near Hammerton station extending all the way to Cattal station. This would massively the increase the number of commuters from both stations and would logically make the case for redoubling the line. Hopefully this will have been taken into account with the new signalling.

And the proposed station at Flaxby.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I visited Poppleton station in 1996, and at that time there was a new colour- light signal, with the head covered up, half way along the down platform. I went back in 2014, and the post was still there, looking very rusty, and the head had been removed. On a further visit in 2016, the post had gone as well! So it looks as if something like the present changes was considered almost 25 years ago, and then abandoned.

As far as I know the problem with that signal was that, if it had been commissioned, the platform would have needed to be nearly doubled in length (at vast expense) in order to allow the train to be fully in the platform when stopped at the signal. The existing semaphore has "grandfather rights" and thus could be simply maintained thus avoiding the expense so that is what happened. I think the signal was erected in 1989 as a consequence of the York resignalling and abolition of Skelton Junction box.