Your ideas for the Thameslink service pattern

[London Trains]

I would like to hear how people would alter the Thameslink core service pattern. Imagine Windmill Bridge Junction and East Croydon have been upgraded, and there is still a 24tph limit through the core.

I would run:

2tph Bedford to Brighton (all stops to St Albans, West Hampstead, Core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick, all stops)
2tph Bedford to Horsham (all stops to St Albans, West Hampstead, Core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Redhill, all stops exc. Faygate)
2tph Cambridge to Brighton (Royston, Baldock, Letchworth, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, Core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick, Three Bridges, Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill, Hassocks)
2tph Peterborough to Reigate (all stops to Stevenage, Finsbury Park, Core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Purley, all stops)

2tph Luton to Orpington (skips Cricklewood, Hendon and Kentish Town)
2tph Luton to Sevenoaks (skips Cricklewood, Hendon and Kentish Town)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Hackbridge (all stops)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon (all stops)

PEAK 2tph Bedford to Littlehampton
PEAK 2tph Bedford to Eastbourne

Out of Victoria, I would scrap the Reigate service and replace it with a Horsham via Gatwick service calling at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Purley and all stops (exc. Faygate).

The Rainham service would again be a Southeastern service out of Cannon Street.

The other Cambridge service will permanently run to Kings Cross and after HS2, a similar Kings Cross to Peterborough service will run all day.

Peak time London Bridge to East Grinstead services will be run by Southern out of the terminating platforms like they used to be.

 

[Bald Rick]

Where’s the other 4tph?

Also, yo7 can’t have fas5 l8ne calls a5 West Hampstead in the peak; no capacity.

 

[London Trains]

Where’s the other 4tph?

Also, yo7 can’t have fas5 l8ne calls a5 West Hampstead in the peak; no capacity.

I wouldn't have the other 4tph for recovery purposes. Anyway, there would be nowhere for them to go - I would rather keep the Cambridge stopper away from the Thameslink core, and I would transfer the Moorgate services to TfL and make them 6tph Welwyn and 6tph Stevenage - negating the need for any Thameslink services at those stops.

And yes, I understand that. I forgot to state it, but the Bedford services would not call at West Hampstead during the peak.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

This is one of those things I just hate, but here we go (if we’re allowed 24tph).
*indicates possible peak extra calls.
#indicates removal of call at peak.

All day standard routes:
TL1 2tph Cambridge North, Cambridge Royston, Letchworth, Hitchin*, Stevenage, Finsbury, core stations to London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Balcombe, Hayward’s Heath, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Brighton.
TL2 2tph Peterborough, Huntingdon, St Neots, Sandy, Biggleswade, Arlesey, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, core stations to London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Hayward’s Heath, Wivelsfield, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Brighton.
TL3 4tph St Albans City, all stations to Blackfriars, Elephant & Castle, Denmark Hill, all stations to Orpington via Catford and Bromley South.
TL4 2tph Bedford, all stations to St Albans City, West Hampstead#, St Pancras, all stations to London Bridge, New Cross Gate#, Norwood Junction, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham*, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges and relevant stations to Horsham.
TL5 2tph Bedford, all stations to St Albans City, West Hampstead#, St Pancras, all stations to London Bridge, New Cross Gate#, Norwood Junction, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Reigate.
(Also services from Blackfriars bay platforms to Ashford Intl and Gillingham via Bromley South)
(Also half-hourly stopping Cambridge services from Kings Cross)

Peak only routes, in the peak direction.
TL6a 2tph (ECS from Hornsey) Finsbury Park, core stations to London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Haywards Heath, Wivelsfield, relevant stations to Eastbourne.
TL7a 2tph (ECS from Hornsey) Finsbury Park, core stations to London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Preston Park, Hove, relevant stations to Littlehampton.
TL8a 2tph (ECS from Hornsey) Finsbury Park, core stations to Blackfriars, Herne Hill, Beckenham Jn, Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Otford, Borough Green, West Malling, Maidstone East and all stations to Ashford International.
TL9a 2tph (ECS from Hornsey) Finsbury Park, core stations to Blackfriars, Herne Hill, Beckenham Jn, Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Farningham Road, Longfield, Meopham, Sole Street, Rochester.
TL10a 2tph (ECS from Cricklewood) West Hampstead, Kentish Town, St Pancras, core stations to Elephant & Castle, Loughborough Jn, Herne Hill, Penge East, Beckenham Junction, Shortlands, Bromley South, Bickley, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Eynsford, Shoreham, Otford, Bat & Ball, Sevenoaks.
TL11a 2tph (ECS from Cricklewood) West Hampstead, Kentish Town, St Pancras, core stations to Elephant & Castle, Loughborough Jn, Herne Hill, West Dulwich, Sydenham Hill, Penge East, Kent House, Beckenham Junction.

TL6b (ECS or service from Three Bridges area) London Bridge, core stations to St Pancras, St Albans, Harpenden, Luton Airport Parkway, Luton, Flitwick, Bedford.
TL7b (ECS or service from Three Bridges area) London Bridge, core stations to St Pancras, St Albans, Luton, Leagrave, Harlington, Flitwick, Bedford.
TL8b (existing services normally terminating at Blackfriars from Ashford), core stations to Finsbury Park, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North, Knebworth, Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth, Baldock, Ashwell, Royston.
TL9b (existing services normally terminating at Blackfriars from Gillingham), core stations to Finsbury Park, Welwyn North, Knebworth, Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth, Baldock, Ashwell, Royston, Meldreth, Shepreth, Foxton, Cambridge.
TL10b (ECS or service from Sevenoaks / Bellingham) Elephant & Castle, core stations to West Hampstead, Mill Hill, Elstree, Radlett, St Albans, Harpenden, Luton Airport, Luton.
TL11b (ECS or service from Beckenham / Bellingham) Elephant & Castle, core stations to West Hampstead, Hendon, Mill Hill, Elstree, St Albans, Harpenden, Luton Airport, Luton.

This leaves space for a peak quarter-hourly stopping service from Victoria to Kent House, as well as one additional fast service every 30 minutes flighted inbetween the TL10a and subsequent faster service (TL8/9). A quarter-hourly fast path is also generated from Victoria to Bromley and beyond via Denmark Hill with a stop there. This satisfies 6 fast trains from Victoria to Medway and Maidstone combined at peak.

Welwyn semi-fast services use alternative rolling stock from Kings Cross.

Services to/ from Tulse Hull are operated by Southern, to any appropriate timetable and route. That means quarter-hourly Victoria - Brixton - Herne Hill - Tulse Hill and beyond in each direction. This is more appropriate as Wimbledon - Sutton seems likely to become a Tram route, and therefore a loop isn’t possible. It also permits up services to depart to Blackfriars and Victoria with no conflict.

Driver depots are heavily-rationalised to Bedford, Peterborough, Cambridge, Letchworth, Hornsey, Bedford, St Albans, Cricklewood, Three Bridges, Brighton, Ashford, Gillingham and Orpington.

 

[Hadders]

I would transfer the Moorgate services to TfL and make them 6tph Welwyn and 6tph Stevenage - negating the need for any Thameslink services at those stops.

Don't think you could get 6tph to Stevenage even with the new platform.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

2tph is all that’s needed north of Hertford, all told.

 

[JonathanH]

2tph Bedford to Horsham (all stops to St Albans, West Hampstead, Core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Redhill, all stops exc. Faygate)

2tph Peterborough to Reigate (all stops to Stevenage, Finsbury Park, Core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Purley, all stops)

TL2 2tph Peterborough, Huntingdon, St Neots, Sandy, Biggleswade, Arlesey, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, core stations to London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Hayward’s Heath, Wivelsfield, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Brighton.

TL5 2tph Bedford, all stations to St Albans City, West Hampstead#, St Pancras, all stations to London Bridge, New Cross Gate#, Norwood Junction, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Reigate.

I hate to dampen your enthusiasm for messing around with the destinations of the core services south of London but can you explain why the current arrangement (with Bedford running to Reigate instead of Gatwick at some point) is in any way sub-optimal. Do you not think that the people who plan this stuff didn't make commercial and operational decisions about which destinations best link across London? It strikes me that they actually got it right.

 

[London Trains]

I hate to dampen your enthusiasm for messing around with the destinations of the core services south of London but can you explain why the current arrangement (with Bedford running to Reigate instead of Gatwick at some point) is in any way sub-optimal. Do you not think that the people who plan this stuff didn't make commercial and operational decisions about which destinations best link across London? It strikes me that they actually got it right.

Swapping Horsham and Reigate around will likely make everything more reliable - Peterborough services are more likely to get delayed (conflicts with LNER, GN, GC, HT, GA, XC, EMR and theres Welwyn Viaduct which can wreak havoc) than Bedford (conflicts with only EMR), so having Peterborough services run to the destination closer to London, where the stops (Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham) can be added to the Horsham service in disruption, and it is likely there will be a GWR service Redhill to Reigate connecting with the Horsham service for Reigate passengers, is better generally.

 

[Ianno87]

Swapping Horsham and Reigate around will likely make everything more reliable - Peterborough services are more likely to get delayed (conflicts with LNER, GN, GC, HT, GA, XC, EMR and theres Welwyn Viaduct which can wreak havoc) than Bedford (conflicts with only EMR), so having Peterborough services run to the destination closer to London, where the stops (Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham) can be added to the Horsham service in disruption, and it is likely there will be a GWR service Redhill to Reigate connecting with the Horsham service for Reigate passengers, is better generally.

More reliable?

It's already incredibly reliable for a service of its complexity; GTR's PPM increased after the initial timetable disruption had gone away.

Welwyn viaduct simply does not "wreak havoc" on anything.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I hate to dampen your enthusiasm for messing around with the destinations of the core services south of London but can you explain why the current arrangement (with Bedford running to Reigate instead of Gatwick at some point) is in any way sub-optimal. Do you not think that the people who plan this stuff didn't make commercial and operational decisions about which destinations best link across London? It strikes me that they actually got it right.

The best thing for passengers ultimately is operational goodness, as it means their journeys are more likely to be reliable. Creation of extremely decent and standard quarter-hourly pathing is the right thing to do - and people can simply pop off a Bedford service at London Bridge, and 5 minutes behind will be a rapid Gatwick or Brighton.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

More reliable?

It's already incredibly reliable for a service of its complexity; GTR's PPM increased after the initial timetable disruption had gone away.

Welwyn viaduct simply does not "wreak havoc" on anything.

GTR is very punctual at the moment. But carrying only 6% of usual passengers means only 6% of the chance of a passenger delay. Low loadings meant no excessive dwell times. It’s nice to see, but Peterborough to Horsham is so bloody odd. You can build a quarter-hourly standard path from Hitchin to Three Bridges and from Bedford to Redhill - which is better for passengers, I do suggest. It builds a decent Metro-style frequency over a much greater area and likely improves reliability.

 

[Bald Rick]

The best thing for passengers ultimately is operational goodness,

A common mistake.

The best thing for passengers is a reliable service taking them where they want to go to. Clearly you can’t satisfy every flow, so you design the service around the most popular.

 

[Ianno87]

GTR is very punctual at the moment. But carrying only 6% of usual passengers means only 6% of the chance of a passenger delay. Low loadings meant no excessive dwell times. It’s nice to see, but Peterborough to Horsham is so bloody odd. You can build a quarter-hourly standard path from Hitchin to Three Bridges and from Bedford to Redhill - which is better for passengers, I do suggest. It builds a decent Metro-style frequency over a much greater area and likely improves reliability.

I'm talking about GTR's pre-Covid punctuality, consistently high 80s / low 90s. A marked improvement over pre-May 2018 timetable.

The Thameslink timetable is very, very robust.

 

[JonathanH]

GTR is very punctual at the moment. But carrying only 6% of usual passengers means only 6% of the chance of a passenger delay. Low loadings meant no excessive dwell times. It’s nice to see, but Peterborough to Horsham is so bloody odd. You can build a quarter-hourly standard path from Hitchin to Three Bridges and from Bedford to Redhill - which is better for passengers, I do suggest. It builds a decent Metro-style frequency over a much greater area and likely improves reliability.

There is a quarter hourly standard path from Hitchin to East Croydon and Bedford to East Croydon. South of there the calling patterns have to differ. For a start you have to fit in the Southern services to Victoria. Living in Reigate, I am much happier with the 'fast' Peterborough and 'slow' Bedford in the morning peak than if they were both 'slow' Bedford trains. If you are going to run a non-stop train from Gatwick to Brighton, the other trains on the line can't run at even intervals.

The Peterborough train actually offers a pretty good (off-peak) journey time for through journeys to Gatwick even though it goes via Redhill. Peterborough to Horsham is not odd, not in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Ianno87]

There is a quarter hourly standard path from Hitchin to East Croydon and Bedford to East Croydon. South of there the calling patterns have to differ. For a start you have to fit in the Southern services to Victoria. Living in Reigate, I am much happier with the 'fast' Peterborough and 'slow' Bedford in the morning peak than if they were both 'slow' Bedford trains. If you are going to run a non-stop train from Gatwick to Brighton, the other trains on the line can't run at even intervals.

Indeed *not* having a 15 minute even Thameslink pattern south of East Croydon has made other things be possible.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is a quarter hourly standard path from Hitchin to East Croydon and Bedford to East Croydon. South of there the calling patterns have to differ. For a start you have to fit in the Southern services to Victoria. Living in Reigate, I am much happier with the 'fast' Peterborough and 'slow' Bedford in the morning peak than if they were both 'slow' Bedford trains. If you are going to run a non-stop train from Gatwick to Brighton, the other trains on the line can't run at even intervals.

The Peterborough train actually offers a pretty good (off-peak) journey time for through journeys to Gatwick even though it goes via Redhill. Peterborough to Horsham is not odd, not in the grand scheme of things.

Indeed *not* having a 15 minute even Thameslink pattern south of East Croydon has made other things be possible.

Stop it with your sensibleness!

 

[Bedpan]

I hate to dampen your enthusiasm for messing around with the destinations of the core services south of London but can you explain why the current arrangement (with Bedford running to Reigate instead of Gatwick at some point) is in any way sub-optimal. Do you not think that the people who plan this stuff didn't make commercial and operational decisions about which destinations best link across London? It strikes me that they actually got it right.

From a commercial point of view Luton - Rainham is completely stupid, however much operational sense it makes. Us Harpendenites have lost a very useful direct service to Wimbledon and Sutton, with onward connections from both, which can be used as an alternative to travelling via London terminals, in exchange for a service to the Medway Towns that nobody in their right senses would use because of the time it takes to get there.

 

[London Trains]

From a commercial point of view Luton - Rainham is completely stupid, however much operational sense it makes. Us Harpendenites have lost a very useful direct service to Wimbledon and Sutton, with onward connections from both, which can be used as an alternative to travelling via London terminals, in exchange for a service to the Medway Towns that nobody in their right senses would use because of the time it takes to get there.

It doesnt make that much operational sense. What would make more sense would be to operate Luton to Sevenoaks, replacing the Blackfriars terminators. The peak only Luton to Orpington should then operate all day, creating an every 15m service all the way from Luton to Bromley. They should operate 5m before the St Albans to Sutton allowing people to change at St Albans onto the Sutton train (and allowing the Luton to Orpington / Sevenoaks services to skip Hendon and Cricklewood without catching up the next Sutton). This means a simple 8tph service runs on the slow lines, all via Elephant and Castle when south of the core, and Bedford services, as well as ECML services all operate via London Bridge to BML destinations. Stupid ideas like peak only Welwyn services or all day Maidstone East to Cambridge services can be forgotten.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

15 min frequency in each direction on the Sutton Loop all terminating at Blackfriars.

 

[Ianno87]

From a commercial point of view Luton - Rainham is completely stupid, however much operational sense it makes. Us Harpendenites have lost a very useful direct service to Wimbledon and Sutton, with onward connections from both, which can be used as an alternative to travelling via London terminals, in exchange for a service to the Medway Towns that nobody in their right senses would use because of the time it takes to get there.

It's a simple same-platform change in the core to get to Wimbledon/Sutton. I think you're over-estimating the level of demand for such a flow.

Incidentally, the Rainham service from observation does appear to be reasonably popular inwards of Dartford-ish area (wherw the journey time is not such a big issue) for people specifically travelling beyond London Bridge.

 

[Bald Rick]

From a commercial point of view Luton - Rainham is completely stupid, however much operational sense it makes. Us Harpendenites have lost a very useful direct service to Wimbledon and Sutton, with onward connections from both, which can be used as an alternative to travelling via London terminals, in exchange for a service to the Medway Towns that nobody in their right senses would use because of the time it takes to get there.

From regular observation, I would say that the market from north of St Albans to south of Elephant & Castle on the Sutton trains was close to zero. And most of it was to/from Luton airport. Meanwhile there is quite a market from Radlett / Elstree etc to London Bridge. Also, notably, Greenwich appears to be quite popular off peak from Luton southwards.

But at the end of the day, you can tolease all the people all the time.

It's a simple same-platform change in the core to get to Wimbledon/Sutton.

Indeed, same platform at St Albans, with a 6-7 minute connection time and guaranteed seats.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

One thing I can’t wait for personally is the ‘non-Thameslink’ Rainham service that doesn’t bring everything into/out of Cannon Street to a stand when something is more than 60 seconds late.

 

[30907]

One thing I can’t wait for personally is the ‘non-Thameslink’ Rainham service that doesn’t bring everything into/out of Cannon Street to a stand when something is more than 60 seconds late.

You mean running all Greenwich lines trains to/from CST presumably?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

You mean running all Greenwich lines trains to/from CST presumably?

Yes. And, if we can, re-arranging the Charing Cross service so as to not occupy one of the ‘ten-minute’ paths, returning a single and easy Metro frequency.

 

[Ianno87]

You mean running all Greenwich lines trains to/from CST presumably?

Yes. And, if we can, re-arranging the Charing Cross service so as to not occupy one of the ‘ten-minute’ paths, returning a single and easy Metro frequency.

Where is going to lose its Cannon Street service to allow that to happen?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Not at all - we’re talking about removing the Thameslink Rainham, returning the ten-minutely Slade Green to Deptford (to Cannon St) service and then slotting the Charing Cross I’m elsewhere.

 

[Ianno87]

Not at all - we’re talking about removing the Thameslink Rainham, returning the ten-minutely Slade Green to Deptford (to Cannon St) service and then slotting the Charing Cross I’m elsewhere.

So, that's two extra trains into Cannon Street. So something else must come out.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

So, that's two extra trains into Cannon Street. So something else must come out.

I understand the Thameslink Rainham is being swapped for a Reigate, therefore no; something else need not come out.

 

[Ianno87]

I understand the Thameslink Rainham is being swapped for a Reigate, therefore no; something else need not come out.

Which only leaves four trains per hour via Greenwich.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Which only leaves four trains per hour via Greenwich.

And therefore you insert the Cannon Street starters. Even at peak, the paths still exist but are just a 4/5 minute gap to accommodate the XKE crossing move.