Extending the Waterloo and City Line

[waterboo]

In reality, I do not see a serious case to extend the line, but, just for a bit of fun and knowledge, how would you go about extending it, and what do you think should be the stops/destinations.

My proposal would be to extend the line by connecting it to the northern city line, from there however, I am not sure of the economics of doing this, and it is this for which I need your help and your other options.

 

[gordonthemoron]

they should extend it to Kings Cross, Platform 9 3/4

 

[DJL]

Given how short the line is it may well be cheaper to bore (a) new tunnel(s). Even if that new route also has Waterloo and Bank as adjacent stops and is directly underneath the current tunnels

 

[12CSVT]

Has an intermediate station at Blackfriars ever been considered ?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Looking at a picture of the tunnel layout at Bank extending it to the east is not an option as you've got the Central line tunnels in the way. I've no idea what the situation is like at Waterloo

 

[David Goddard]

Interesting to note the following on "Wikipedia":

In 1934 the London Passenger Transport Board (LPTB), operator of most of the London Underground system, proposed that the Waterloo & City should have a new intermediate station at Blackfriars, connecting with the District Line station there. They further proposed that the Waterloo & City line should be extended to Liverpool Street station and Shoreditch, the trains there continuing over the East London Railway to New Cross and New Cross Gate. It is not clear whether the scheme had been costed, but nothing came of it.

Personally, any plausible extensions could either be Northwards from Bank to Moorgate to join the Northern City line and Westwards to Victoria
The biggest obstacle is probably the length of the existing platforms.

 

[simple simon]

Since the building of the DLR at Bank an eastern extension from the present platforms would no longer be easy - part of what would have been a running line is now an interchange passageway.

I thought that the Blackfriars platforms were going to be added by Network SouthEast in the 1980's. I assume that it did not happen because in the rush hours the trains are already too overcrowded - so an extra stop would not make sense.

Simon

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I don't know if it would be practical or even physically possible anyway but what about extending it to connect all the main terminus stations:

* Waterloo
* Kings X & St Panc.
* Euston
* Charring Cross
* Blackfriars
* Victoria
* London Bridge

Maybe even a connection to the Picc line for Heathrow to link all the major transport hubs in London

 

[duncanp]

There is probably a good reason why it can't be done, but I would have thought that extending the DLR from Bank to Waterloo would be one option.

If not, how about extending it Westwards to Victoria?

 

[Nym]

Well, at Bank the old overun tunnel on Platform 8 is now a walkway to the Northern Line platforms at at Waterloo you'd have to build a new depot and demolish the current one as you'd need to run through it. Then you have the fast that the platforms are only four cars long...(!)

 

[Bald Rick]

There is probably a good reason why it can't be done, but I would have thought that extending the DLR from Bank to Waterloo would be one option?

To quote Modern Railways from around quarter of a century ago:-

The W&C trains won't go round DLR curves, and the DLR trains won't fit in W&C tunnels.

That's before the slight problem of the Central line and various building foundations being in the way.

http://stations.aeracode.org/#bnk

 

[ianhr]

Bank to Moorgate then via Northern City Line to Drayton Park-Finsbury Park (// to ECML) then via abandoned route to Highgate and cross platform interchange with the Northern Line at East Finchley & perhaps on to Mill Hill East. It would open a lot of new through journey opportunities, make better use of the Northern City Line and relieve pressure on the Northern Line. GN Moorgate trains should go to King's Cross or Thameslink & there could be cross platform interchange at Finsbury Park.

 

[edwin_m]

Bank to Moorgate then via Northern City Line to Drayton Park-Finsbury Park (// to ECML) then via abandoned route to Highgate and cross platform interchange with the Northern Line at East Finchley & perhaps on to Mill Hill East. It would open a lot of new through journey opportunities, make better use of the Northern City Line and relieve pressure on the Northern Line.

Not on to Edgware or Bushey Heath as well?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Bank to Moorgate then via Northern City Line to Drayton Park-Finsbury Park (// to ECML) then via abandoned route to Highgate and cross platform interchange with the Northern Line at East Finchley & perhaps on to Mill Hill East. It would open a lot of new through journey opportunities, make better use of the Northern City Line and relieve pressure on the Northern Line. GN Moorgate trains should go to King's Cross or Thameslink & there could be cross platform interchange at Finsbury Park.

I remember hearing from somewhere (possibly on here!) that Crossrail is now (or will shortly be) in the way of any possible Southern extension of the Northern City Line. Anyone know if this is correct?

 

[Class172]

I made a proposal for an extension of the line a couple of years ago. It does not factor in potential barriers to expansion such as platforms in the way etc., so is not necessarily probable in real life.

The route included a northbound extension to Chingford, taking the line over from Greater Anglia (or is it TfL now?), and the line extended southwards past Wimbledon and Kingston-upon-Thames. The route between Fulham Broadway and Wimbledon is transferred from District to W&C operation. I designed the route also so there is a direct connection between Victoria, Waterloo and Liverpool Street terminals.

A map of the route is here: red stations are surface; yellow subsurface.

 

[Jonny]

Looking at a picture of the tunnel layout at Bank extending it to the east is not an option as you've got the Central line tunnels in the way. I've no idea what the situation is like at Waterloo

The depot is at the Waterloo end. Any alternative arrangement would need to work around that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS A bit of 'digging' on google turned up this:http://www.harsig.org/PDF/WaterlooCity2010.pdf

and this:
http://www.simsig.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=usertrack:sims:drain

 

[waterboo]

Well, at Bank the old overun tunnel on Platform 8 is now a walkway to the Northern Line platforms at at Waterloo you'd have to build a new depot and demolish the current one as you'd need to run through it. Then you have the fast that the platforms are only four cars long...(!)

Understandably, the platform length is a problem, but, could the mainline run through two of the sidings, such as siding 3 and 5? Then, it might not be a problem.

Also, the DLR is on a completely different level to the W&C, so to be connected, there may have to be some crazy, if not impossible gradients.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bank to Moorgate then via Northern City Line to Drayton Park-Finsbury Park (// to ECML) then via abandoned route to Highgate and cross platform interchange with the Northern Line at East Finchley & perhaps on to Mill Hill East. It would open a lot of new through journey opportunities, make better use of the Northern City Line and relieve pressure on the Northern Line. GN Moorgate trains should go to King's Cross or Thameslink & there could be cross platform interchange at Finsbury Park.

I really like this idea - good way to relieve the northern line.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Bank to Moorgate then via Northern City Line to Drayton Park-Finsbury Park (// to ECML) then via abandoned route to Highgate

The Northern Line tunnels between Moorgate and Bank get in the way. Remember that the Northern City Line tunnels are beneath the Northern Line tunnels at Moorgate and Old Street.

 

[waterboo]

If all else fails, I do believe that the Waterloo and City line will make an excellent 'inner city' walkway.

 

[Tibbs]

Also, the DLR is on a completely different level to the W&C, so to be connected, there may have to be some crazy, if not impossible gradients.

Turn the DLR into a funicular railway for that bit.

I reckon the engineering would be dead easy - put a chain in like they do on rollercoasters, and a big crochet hook on the front and back of the train. Job done!

 

[Deerfold]

If all else fails, I do believe that the Waterloo and City line will make an excellent 'inner city' walkway.

Or we could keep it as it is - would a walkway cope with the current number of users of the line?

 

[DJL]

Or we could keep it as it is - would a walkway cope with the current number of users of the line?

People would likely be further apart under their own power but you wouldn't have the (comparatively) large gaps between trains.
What is the maximum frequency that the tracks can cope with with current layout & technology? (i.e. if you had a limitless supply of working trains of any type that will physically fit in the tunnels)

I honestly don't understand what the obsession is with extending this line.
It is short with good reason.
Any longer line should be in addition to the current one not instead of. (and as I said previously a new line would probably be cheaper to implement than any kind of extension anyway)

 

[waterboo]

Or we could keep it as it is - would a walkway cope with the current number of users of the line?

Well, whilst a train appears to be the 'faster way', it has a lower crush load capacity for getting people a to b, whilst having a tunnel will allow more people to access it.

That is, considering the current gaps in the frequency of the service.

 

[shaun]

Extend it under Waterloo to join the surface lines before Vauxhall, then use the ex-Eurostar route right through the tunnel to Calais.

On a serious note, it really is fine as it is. Maybe open it on Sundays to start, or if you insist on extending just join it to the Central Line at Bank. It uses identical rolling stock anyway.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Extend it under Waterloo to join the surface lines before Vauxhall, then use the ex-Eurostar route right through the tunnel to Calais.

On a serious note, it really is fine as it is. Maybe open it on Sundays to start, or if you insist on extending just join it to the Central Line at Bank. It uses identical rolling stock anyway.

It's opening times could be altered to tie in with the opening times of the DLR's Bank branch

 

[Deerfold]

Maybe open it on Sundays to start, or if you insist on extending just join it to the Central Line at Bank. It uses identical rolling stock anyway.

If you join it to the Central line at Bank you'd have to use some of the current paths east of Bank (unless you've ideas for getting the frequency up beyond 34tph). As the trains in those paths currently serve the main centre of the Central Line you'd have to reduce the frequency on that section. Can't see that being popular. And on the eastern section you now have half length trains.

 

[CarltonA]

or if you insist on extending just join it to the Central Line at Bank. It uses identical rolling stock anyway.

The Waterloo & City 92 stock is far from identical to the central line stock. The trains originally aquired by NSE are very basic in comparison with the much modified and ATO fitted stock in operation on the central line. Leaving aside the fact they are much shorter.

 

[317 forever]

To quote Modern Railways from around quarter of a century ago:-

The W&C trains won't go round DLR curves, and the DLR trains won't fit in W&C tunnels.

That's before the slight problem of the Central line and various building foundations being in the way.

http://stations.aeracode.org/#bnk

It is a pity that it sounds impossible to extend the DLR to Waterloo via the W&C Line. As well as providing links and reducing pressure on the Jubilee Line, the 1992 stock could transfer to the Central Line to provide some spares.

 

[Busaholic]

A station at Blackfriars is quite achievable and would make Thameslink more Central London-friendly than either currently or in immediate future.It would be particularly useful outside peak hours when the W&C is not busy.Waterloo is not even connected to Blackfriars by bus anymore since the 76 was diverted by Fleet Street rather than Queen Victoria Street (unnecessarily in my view).

 

[317 forever]

A station at Blackfriars is quite achievable and would make Thameslink more Central London-friendly than either currently or in immediate future.It would be particularly useful outside peak hours when the W&C is not busy.Waterloo is not even connected to Blackfriars by bus anymore since the 76 was diverted by Fleet Street rather than Queen Victoria Street (unnecessarily in my view).

I agree that the rerouting of route 76 away from Blackfriars was pointless. An alternative Bank - Fleet Street - Waterloo was introduced as route 26 on the same day ie 18.7.92, which in a sense supplemented route 4 from Ludgate Hill to Waterloo.