Any possibility of Carnforth station West Coast Mainline platforms re-opening?

[deltic08]

Have you ever been to the Lake District? How on earth would you get a tram up to Keswick past Grasmere? Not even the Victorian rail builders thought that was worth taking on!

Yes many times and lived there for a while and you could get heavy rail from Windermere to Keswick and would be better than trams.

Climbing up to the old County Boundary at Dunmail Raise Pass is no worse than climbing over Shap, Beattock, Druimochter or Slochd.

The Victorians did want to take it on but was stopped by Wordsworth who was famous enough at that time to have influence. The first NIMBY? Windermere was not planned to be a branch line.

 

[A0wen]

That is utter fantasy. It is very unlikely the main line platforms will open and be served by TPE services, but suggesting Anglo-Scottish InterCity services could and should stop at Carnforth is one of the most outlandish things I've read on a rail internet forum, and most forums are full of strange suggestions.

Whilst it may not be a particularly viable suggestion, I think you're being unfair in your assessment of the IC services stopping at Carnforth being 'one of the most outlandish things' on a rail forum.

By the standards of this forum, it's a fairly tame suggestion - after all the trains do pass through there and the platforms would be a fairly easy thing to reinstate.

Whereas some of the more lunatic suggestions around here have involved reinstating lines which were closed pre-Beeching as unviable, reinstating lines where existing parallel lines are lightly used and the myriad suggestions of how the class 442 EMUs could be reused. In fact using the 442s to provide a Crewe-Carlisle stopper with a Class 86 for power was, I think, just about the only use for them which wasn't suggested

 

[yorksrob]

Whilst it may not be a particularly viable suggestion, I think you're being unfair in your assessment of the IC services stopping at Carnforth being 'one of the most outlandish things' on a rail forum.

By the standards of this forum, it's a fairly tame suggestion - after all the trains do pass through there and the platforms would be a fairly easy thing to reinstate.

Whereas some of the more lunatic suggestions around here have involved reinstating lines which were closed pre-Beeching as unviable, reinstating lines where existing parallel lines are lightly used and the myriad suggestions of how the class 442 EMUs could be reused. In fact using the 442s to provide a Crewe-Carlisle stopper with a Class 86 for power was, I think, just about the only use for them which wasn't suggested

Just because a line was closed pre-Beeching, it doesn't automatically follow that it will be unviable now. I understand that Airdrie - Bathgate closed in 1953.

 

[najaB]

Just because a line was closed pre-Beeching, it doesn't automatically follow that it will be unviable now. I understand that Airdrie - Bathgate closed in 1953.

Passenger services were withdrawn in the 1950's but the railway remained open until the 1980's.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In fact using the 442s to provide a Crewe-Carlisle stopper with a Class 86 for power was, I think, just about the only use for them which wasn't suggested

I believe it just was...

 

[A0wen]

Just because a line was closed pre-Beeching, it doesn't automatically follow that it will be unviable now. I understand that Airdrie - Bathgate closed in 1953.

At the risk of being provocative - I think you know full well that the kind of schemes I was talking about were along the lines of 'let's rebuild the S&MJR from Northampton to Brackley' - which doesn't even attract the interest of the local authorities, still less the rail industry.

Parts of Airdrie - Bathgate had seen services re-introduced by BR in the 80s and the line only closed as a through route in 1982, so few if any obstacles were in the way. The fact it also provided another direct link between Scotland's two major cities also helped. Whereas reinstating a line between Wibble on the Weir and Dunny on the Wold via Fenny Bogmarsh really isn't comparable.

 

[JohnB57]

I understand that Airdrie - Bathgate closed in 1953.

Closed to passengers in 1956 and freight in 1982.

Climbing up to the old County Boundary at Dunmail Raise Pass is no worse than climbing over Shap, Beattock, Druimochter or Slochd.

The Victorians did want to take it on but was stopped by Wordsworth who was famous enough at that time to have influence. The first NIMBY? Windermere was not planned to be a branch line.

I can't find a reference to any serious plan for an extension from Windermere to Keswick, which, if it were to extend onward from Ambleside, would have had to follow the contours of the landscape, missing out the centre of Ambleside and involving major tunnelling at some point beyond that.

Wordsworth's objection seems to be to the Windermere line both as eventually built and proposals to extend it to Ambleside. I can find no meaningful reference (and I know how much you love research!) indicating that the plan was for a through line taking in Keswick so you may be being a little harsh on him. I'd be glad if you could share any further references though.

 

[Iskra]

I wouldn't use the M6 if commuting from Carnforth to Lancaster. Longer in distance and no quicker in time.

I would and did. It's quicker, I can assure you. The A6 is problematic due to schools on it, Tesco, being a bus route, lower speeds and then you've traffic lights too. The traffic over the Lune bridges is horrific and you then have to compete with all the Morecambe traffic and then crawl around the ring road.

The M6 is much easier.

 

[deltic08]

Closed to passengers in 1956 and freight in 1982.


I can't find a reference to any serious plan for an extension from Windermere to Keswick, which, if it were to extend onward from Ambleside, would have had to follow the contours of the landscape, missing out the centre of Ambleside and involving major tunnelling at some point beyond that.

Wordsworth's objection seems to be to the Windermere line both as eventually built and proposals to extend it to Ambleside. I can find no meaningful reference (and I know how much you love research!) indicating that the plan was for a through line taking in Keswick so you may be being a little harsh on him. I'd be glad if you could share any further references though.

No reference this time. Only what was generally talked about when I lived there in 1955/56 with relatives.

Had it gone through, the station at Windermere would have been sited higher up on the north side of the A591 and yes to the northeast of Ambleside Town.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the risk of being provocative - I think you know full well that the kind of schemes I was talking about were along the lines of 'let's rebuild the S&MJR from Northampton to Brackley' - which doesn't even attract the interest of the local authorities, still less the rail industry.

Parts of Airdrie - Bathgate had seen services re-introduced by BR in the 80s and the line only closed as a through route in 1982, so few if any obstacles were in the way. The fact it also provided another direct link between Scotland's two major cities also helped.

Being provocative hasn't troubled you previously.

To be strictly true, the 1985 reintroduction was between Edinburgh and Bathgate not Airdrie and Bathgate unless you were referring to extension from Airdrie to Drumgelloch in 1970 something.

 

[A0wen]

Being provocative hasn't troubled you previously.

Good afternoon pot, I'm kettle.

I thought you were taking your ball away as you didn't like how everyone else played?

 

[Dunc108]

One option could be a short North curve off the Furness & Midland tracks onto the WCML, providing an alternative solution to reinstating any through platforms and with any northbound Windermere or Manchester - Scotland services able to call in either direction without hogging the main line. Still might never happen but could be a compromise.

 

[TheKnightWho]

One option could be a short North curve off the Furness & Midland tracks onto the WCML, providing an alternative solution to reinstating any through platforms and with any northbound Windermere or Manchester - Scotland services able to call in either direction without hogging the main line. Still might never happen but could be a compromise.

How would this solve anything? Introducing a new curve, and the operational difficulties that would involve (such as reverse running for short stretches for up trains) would be far more expensive and constraining that reintroducing a couple of platforms into service again.

Unless you're proposing a flyover, which would be even more expensive...

 

[yorksrob]

At the risk of being provocative - I think you know full well that the kind of schemes I was talking about were along the lines of 'let's rebuild the S&MJR from Northampton to Brackley' - which doesn't even attract the interest of the local authorities, still less the rail industry.

Parts of Airdrie - Bathgate had seen services re-introduced by BR in the 80s and the line only closed as a through route in 1982, so few if any obstacles were in the way. The fact it also provided another direct link between Scotland's two major cities also helped. Whereas reinstating a line between Wibble on the Weir and Dunny on the Wold via Fenny Bogmarsh really isn't comparable.

Most suggested reopenings are based on passenger numbers, so I still count the line as having been closed in the 1950's as that was when it was decided that the area couldn't support a passenger service.

At the risk of being more provocative, most reopening proposals seem to meet with the same negative reaction from some quarters of this forum whether they be Bedford - Cambridge, Uckfield - Lewes, Okehampton - Tavistock, the S&D or even turning the former Cromford & High Peak Railway into a high speed maglev. So no. I don't know full well what type of schemes you are referring to.

 

[deltic08]

Good afternoon pot, I'm kettle.

I thought you were taking your ball away as you didn't like how everyone else played?

Stick to the thread that is about Carnforth platforms and not about point scoring.

 

[Class 170101]

If the mainline platforms at Carnforth were to re-open I could only see them being used by TPE Manchester to Scotland services in terms of 'Intercity' services. Local services to Windermere may also use them but I don't see Windermere to Barrow as a major flow.

In so far as Virgin services are concerned I could only see it being used by 04:20 departure from Glasgow and possibly the 06:58 from Lancaster if that was to start back from Edinburgh (04:50 approximately).

Likewise on the return
17:57 from Euston extended from Lancaster to Edinburgh
19:30 from Euston to Glasgow - additional stop.

All pretty much in marginal time.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Pretty sure someone on here has said in the past that Virgin has zero interest in ever serving Carnforth, should the mainline platforms come to fruition.

 

[QueensCurve]

Yes many times and lived there for a while and you could get heavy rail from Windermere to Keswick and would be better than trams.

Climbing up to the old County Boundary at Dunmail Raise Pass is no worse than climbing over Shap, Beattock, Druimochter or Slochd.

The Victorians did want to take it on but was stopped by Wordsworth who was famous enough at that time to have influence. The first NIMBY? Windermere was not planned to be a branch line.

Speculative of course, but I have always suspected there would have been a Dunmail Tunnel. Probably it would be deep enough to avoid disturbing the relics of King Dunmail of Cumberland reportedly buried at the summit.

Joseph Locke will be able to offer more detail, but he originally proposed a summit tunnel at Shap but was overridden by the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway's board of directors.

 

[70014IronDuke]

If the mainline platforms at Carnforth were to re-open I could only see them being used by TPE Manchester to Scotland services in terms of 'Intercity' services. Local services to Windermere may also use them but I don't see Windermere to Barrow as a major flow.

In so far as Virgin services are concerned I could only see it being used by 04:20 departure from Glasgow and possibly the 06:58 from Lancaster if that was to start back from Edinburgh (04:50 approximately).

Likewise on the return
17:57 from Euston extended from Lancaster to Edinburgh
19:30 from Euston to Glasgow - additional stop.

All pretty much in marginal time.

If platforms should be restored, Virgin will still never, ever, stop Glasgow or Carlisle trains there on a scheduled, commercial basis (unless some emergency should transpire like the Lamington problem, which specifically needed it).

With a population of 5,600, even with the Furness and Skipton connections added in, it would never make commercial sense, given that Lancaster is just down the road.

I'll wager 100 to 1 on this.

TPE, or its equivalent, is the best that could be hoped for.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You obviously haven't been to Carnforth. The missing southbound platform is the station entrance and doesn't need linking with the rest of the station. It is already linked by a closed doorway.

You're right, I haven't been (at least not since childhood) and had made assumptions based on the layout that access was directly onto one of the Furness line platforms. With the layout being as it is, it's a slight shame the platforms were demolished as if they were still in place it would be easier to reopen them... Though that being with the caveat that there'd still need to be a demand for it, and there isn't enough demand for it to ever be worthwhile.

 

[Greenback]

With a population of 5,600, even with the Furness and Skipton connections added in, it would never make commercial sense, given that Lancaster is just down the road.

I do think that this the crux of the matter. Another stop for the lon distance Anglo Scottish trains would not be commercially justified so close to Lancaster.

 

[70014IronDuke]

You're right, I haven't been (at least not since childhood) and had made assumptions based on the layout that access was directly onto one of the Furness line platforms. With the layout being as it is, it's a slight shame the platforms were demolished as if they were still in place it would be easier to reopen them... Though that being with the caveat that there'd still need to be a demand for it, and there isn't enough demand for it to ever be worthwhile.

When did local services north of Lancaster stop? I think it was from the winter timetable in 1968-69.

EDIT: (apologies, brain froze) I meant 67-68. I know the main-line platforms were out of use in the summer of 68.

I can imagine it was difficult to justify. I don[t really know what the service was, but I suspect around 4 trains a day each way. I'd certainly be surprised if it were more than 6.

Passenger demand has risen hugely since then. I believe that if platforms had remained in place, then a northbound service would have been restarted by now.

And given there are due to be improvements on the Skipton line towards a semi-decent service, (not sure about the Barrow), that will only help potential demand. What it needs is an influential lobbying group - with the emphasis on influential, ie MPs or some such campaigning for it.

Either that, or Carnforth needs to be annexed by Scotland

 

[najaB]

Either that, or Carnforth needs to be annexed by Scotland

No thanks, you can keep it.

 

[Iskra]

No thanks, you can keep it.

It comes with a fine rolling stock collection! I'd have it just for that!

 

[deltic08]

If the mainline platforms at Carnforth were to re-open I could only see them being used by TPE Manchester to Scotland services in terms of 'Intercity' services. Local services to Windermere may also use them but I don't see Windermere to Barrow as a major flow.

In so far as Virgin services are concerned I could only see it being used by 04:20 departure from Glasgow and possibly the 06:58 from Lancaster if that was to start back from Edinburgh (04:50 approximately).

Likewise on the return
17:57 from Euston extended from Lancaster to Edinburgh
19:30 from Euston to Glasgow - additional stop.

All pretty much in marginal time.

According to the Atkins 2011 Report into the Stafford Area upgrade and Norton Bridge Junction replacement in particular, one of the positives is provision of 3 additional passenger and one freight train per hour each way. One of the additional trains quoted was Euston-Blackpool/Windermere splitting/joining at Preston. This could just have stopped at Carnforth if the mainline platforms had been there.

What would have been better would be to alternate Barrow and Windermere every hour then Carnforth would have a service every two hours to London as would Barrow. I hope this new service will happen as both places need a through London service.

 

[Class 170101]

If platforms should be restored, Virgin will still never, ever, stop Glasgow or Carlisle trains there on a scheduled, commercial basis (unless some emergency should transpire like the Lamington problem, which specifically needed it).

With a population of 5,600, even with the Furness and Skipton connections added in, it would never make commercial sense, given that Lancaster is just down the road.

I'll wager 100 to 1 on this.

TPE, or its equivalent, is the best that could be hoped for.

I would agree that TPE Scottish services is the best to be hoped for. However I was merely pointing out trains in marginal time.

Sunderland with Virgin East Coast is only in marginal time likewise, Aberdeen Bradford, Inverness, Skipton and Harrogate are all marginal timed services. This is all I would suggest for Carnforth to / from London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

According to the Atkins 2011 Report into the Stafford Area upgrade and Norton Bridge Junction replacement in particular, one of the positives is provision of 3 additional passenger and one freight train per hour each way. One of the additional trains quoted was Euston-Blackpool/Windermere splitting/joining at Preston. This could just have stopped at Carnforth if the mainline platforms had been there.

What would have been better would be to alternate Barrow and Windermere every hour then Carnforth would have a service every two hours to London as would Barrow. I hope this new service will happen as both places need a through London service.

Why not have two splitting trains every two hours?
So
Euston to Blackpool / other destination (I'll let users decide) Every two hours split Preston
then opposite that
Euston to Windermere / Barrow again every two hours splitting at Preston.

Therefore an hourly service between Preston and London.

 

[deltic08]

When did local services north of Lancaster stop? I think it was from the winter timetable in 1968-69.

EDIT: (apologies, brain froze) I meant 67-68. I know the main-line platforms were out of use in the summer of 68.

I can imagine it was difficult to justify. I don[t really know what the service was, but I suspect around 4 trains a day each way. I'd certainly be surprised if it were more than 6.

Passenger demand has risen hugely since then. I believe that if platforms had remained in place, then a northbound service would have been restarted by now.

And given there are due to be improvements on the Skipton line towards a semi-decent service, (not sure about the Barrow), that will only help potential demand. What it needs is an influential lobbying group - with the emphasis on influential, ie MPs or some such campaigning for it.

Either that, or Carnforth needs to be annexed by Scotland

I remember standing at the north end of the up platform on the first outing of 60007 after rebuilding and repainting at Crewe works travelling north to Carlisle and eventually Glasgow I think so must have been still there at that time. Again not sure of the date whether 1967 or 68 or even 69 unless it came under the steam ban of August 1968.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I would agree that TPE Scottish services is the best to be hoped for. However I was merely pointing out trains in marginal time.

Sunderland with Virgin East Coast is only in marginal time likewise, Aberdeen Bradford, Inverness, Skipton and Harrogate are all marginal timed services. This is all I would suggest for Carnforth to / from London.

Well, I wouldn't call all of those only in marginal time - Sunderland, Skipton, Harrogate yes, and Inverness, partly.

But look at the populations involved here - Sunderland and the rest have somewhat more than 5,600, I'd suggest

Why not have two splitting trains every two hours?
So
Euston to Blackpool / other destination (I'll let users decide) Every two hours split Preston
then opposite that
Euston to Windermere / Barrow again every two hours splitting at Preston.

Therefore an hourly service between Preston and London.

So, what you appear to be advocating here is a Carnforth-London service as part of all this?

If some sort of Barrow - Euston service were to be restored, then that would surely stop at Carnforth, I agree. But stopping an up express on restored main line platforms for a Windermere portion? - I can't see it. Not even half a train from Windermere - not for London passengers. There are plenty of trains - well, enough - from Barrow and Skipton for Carnforth passengers to change at Lancaster.

What I understood the OP to be saying was to restore platforms for passengers from Carnforth (and from the Furness and Skipton lines) to head north without trundling down to Lancaster and passing back 30 mins later. (and of course, making the return journey possible).

However, I grant you that a 'half-train' from Windermere might stop at Carnforth, but primarily to set down, under this scenario.

 

[Philip C]

When did local services north of Lancaster stop? I think it was from the winter timetable in 1968-69.

EDIT: (apologies, brain froze) I meant 67-68. I know the main-line platforms were out of use in the summer of 68.

I can imagine it was difficult to justify. I don[t really know what the service was, but I suspect around 4 trains a day each way. I'd certainly be surprised if it were more than 6.......

Wikipedia suggests May 1970 as the closure date of the main line platforms (following closure of Milnthorpe, Tebay and Shap on 1/7/68). I'm afraid that my records are very thin after the mid-sixties.

The March 1967 - May 1968 timetable shows the following northbound departures from Carnforth:

WEEKDAYS
0500 Kendal & Windermere only
0755 All to Windermere
0830 Oxenholme & all to Carlisle
0845SO (1/7-19/8) (ex Morecambe Prom. not via Lancaster) Carlisle, Motherwell, Glasgow Central
0900 (ex Preston) Oxenholme & all to Windermere
1058SX (3/7-25/8) (ex Blackpool North) Kendal & Windermere only
1124SX (12/6-1/9) (ex Morecambe Prom. not via Lancaster) Oxenholme & all to Windermere
1312 (ex Euston 0905) Oxenholme, Kendal & Windermere only
1516 Oxenholme & all to Carlisle
1535 Oxenholme & all to Windermere
1805SO (8/7-26/8) (ex Blackpool North) Oxenholme, Carlisle, Haltwhistle, Hexham, Newcastle
1850 (ex Warrington BQ via Earlestown) Oxenholme & all to Windermere
2025SX Oxenholme & all to Windermere
2025SO All to Windermere
2115SX (ex Euston 1705) Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle
2115SO (ex Euston 1705) All, except Shap, to Carlisle

SUNDAYS
Bus Service in operation throughout timetable.
1050BUS (ex Lancaster) Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle
1154BUS (ex Preston) Oxenholme, Penrith
1719BUS (ex Preston) Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle

Note: An all stations train to Carlisle (at this time) would have called at Milnthorpe, Oxenholme, Tebay, Shap, Penrith and Carlisle.

I'm quite surprised at how many trains were using the down main platform at Carnforth at this time. Ignoring dated trains there are TEN per day, of which SIX originate at Carnforth, TWO at Euston and ONE at each of Preston & Warrington.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Wikipedia suggests May 1970 as the closure date of the main line platforms (following closure of Milnthorpe, Tebay and Shap on 1/7/68). I'm afraid that my records are very thin after the mid-sixties.

....

I'm quite surprised at how many trains were using the down main platform at Carnforth at this time. Ignoring dated trains there are TEN per day, of which SIX originate at Carnforth, TWO at Euston and ONE at each of Preston & Warrington.

Thanks for this. I was hoping someone would find an old TT with such services.

Well, ten per day, yes - but most of these go just to Oxenholme/Windermere - only three to Carlisle (or beyond) - which is even fewer than I had imagined.
Interesting to see that two of these trains were Euston 'Inter-city' trains, however.
Perhaps my memory for July-August 68 is wrong then . I thought the main line services had been withdrawn by then, but perhaps these trains to Windermere continued to call after the local trains to Tebay and Shap etc had ceased.

 

[The Planner]

Its only there currently at 16:33, 17:33 and 18:33. Like the xx57 at 16:57 and 17:57 ( and FO 18:57). I think these may be allowed to be filled in all hours.

Yes, but what I mean is that Norton Bridge doesnt unlock them, you can use them now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thanks for this. I was hoping someone would find an old TT with such services. Well, ten per day, yes - but most of these go just to Oxenholme/Windermere - only three to Carlisle (or beyond) - which is even fewer than I had imagined. Interesting to see that two of these trains were Euston 'Inter-city' trains, however.

Perhaps my memory for July-August 68 is wrong then . I thought the main line services had been withdrawn by then, but perhaps these trains to Windermere continued to call after the local trains to Tebay and Shap etc had ceased.

Because of the intended nature of this line, it is easy to draw a comparison between the closed local stations between Preston and Lancaster and the closed local stations between Lancaster and Carlisle.