Information for GTR Southern passengers during strike (no DOO discussion)

[sarahj]

Seafords are starting to come back from next week. However, the ways and means of them coming back are not what senior southern staff may have said on TV.

 

[neilm]

Seafords are starting to come back from next week. However, the ways and means of them coming back are not what senior southern staff may have said on TV.

Indeed I think we know, since the Tonbridge/Reigate services have come back more sussex mainline trains have started to be cancelled, it is all one big lie.

 

[Hophead]

Is it intended that we should be grateful to management for their benevolence in restoring services and mean to unions and staff for the cancellations that occur elsewhere as a result?

 

[Deepgreen]

I witnessed a spectacular driver's rant on my Thameslink train yesterday afternoon. I won't specify the train at the moment, but after an even more painful-than-usual crawl from Loughborough Junction to East Croydon, we then again crawled towards Purley and stopped three signals north of the station. The seething driver announced that we were running late "yet again" because "Network Rail don't know how to signal trains" and "this happens every day as you long-suffering commuters will know". A few titters around the carriage, and we then proceeded to Redhill, where we again came to a halt outside the station, with the driver then announcing that "we are now waiting for the Southern staff at Redhill to uncouple a train in the platform which will, as usual, take ages. Still, it's all Govia, so they still line their pockets". Further, louder laughter in the carriage. We arrived at Redhill about 20L.

Amazing stuff - a driver who either wanted to get home, or one who has strong views about the current GTR performance (or both)?

Oh, and for the third day running, the information screen stated that "We are now approaching London Blackfriars" all the way to Redhill!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Erm the fact that you mentioned an afternoon service stopping at Redhill (obviously s/b) does rather narrow it down a bit

 

[GB]

I witnessed a spectacular driver's rant on my Thameslink train yesterday afternoon. I won't specify the train at the moment, but after an even more painful-than-usual crawl from Loughborough Junction to East Croydon, we then again crawled towards Purley and stopped three signals north of the station. The seething driver announced that we were running late "yet again" because "Network Rail don't know how to signal trains" and "this happens every day as you long-suffering commuters will know". A few titters around the carriage, and we then proceeded to Redhill, where we again came to a halt outside the station, with the driver then announcing that "we are now waiting for the Southern staff at Redhill to uncouple a train in the platform which will, as usual, take ages. Still, it's all Govia, so they still line their pockets". Further, louder laughter in the carriage. We arrived at Redhill about 20L.

Amazing stuff - a driver who either wanted to get home, or one who has strong views about the current GTR performance (or both)?

Oh, and for the third day running, the information screen stated that "We are now approaching London Blackfriars" all the way to Redhill!

Very professional

 

[IrishDave]

The RMT have just announced more strikes - 14 days of them over the next two months. This from http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-announces-further-strike-dates-in-southern-dispute220916/:

RAIL UNION RMT today confirmed a series of further industrial action by Southern rail Guards in the wake of the company’s continued insistence on removing critical safety trained Guards from trains.

As a result of this blatant disregard for the safety and security of passengers and staff alike RMT has had no alternative but to declare the following action:

Our members are to take strike action by not booking on for any shifts between:

• 00.01 on Tuesday 11th October and 23.59 on Thursday 13th October

• 00.01 on Tuesday 18th October and 23.59 on Thursday 20st October

• 00.01 on Thursday 3rd November and 23.59 on Saturday 5th November

• 00.01 on Tuesday 22nd November and 23.59 on Wednesday 23rd November

• 00.01 on Tuesday 6th December and 23.59 on Thursday 8th December.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said;

“Yet again our members are being forced to take industrial action in a bid to maintain a safe and secure service on Southern. Govia Thameslink and the Government have made it clear that they have no interest in resolving this dispute. Instead they have begun the process of bulldozing through the drive towards wholesale Driver Only Operation (DOO) without agreement and without any concern for the impact on safety, security and disability access.

“Last week there was a train derailment near Watford that involved two trains. The Guards on both trains played a vital role in protecting the passengers and the trains in what were extremely frightening circumstances. If the train had been DOO and without a Guard the consequences would have been far worse.

“This week we reached a deal with Scotrail that we are recommending for acceptance in a referendum of our members, that guarantees a fully competent Conductor/Guard on every new train. This agreement protects passengers, and guarantees a second safety trained member of staff on board a train, who can assist if there is an incident such as we recently saw near Watford.

“If an agreement can be reached on Scotrail, then an agreement can also be made on Southern.

"In the light of these recent developments it is disgraceful that neither the company or the Government are prepared to engage and are continuing to attempt to impose DOO in the interests of putting profit before safety. We call on them to get round the negotiating table as an urgent priority."

 

[Deepgreen]

Erm the fact that you mentioned an afternoon service stopping at Redhill (obviously s/b) does rather narrow it down a bit

Yes - but not to one!

 

[infobleep]

The RMT have just announced more strikes - 14 days of them over the next two months. This from http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-announces-further-strike-dates-in-southern-dispute220916/:

So another 14 days then of the 17.30 Gatwick Express to Brighton being changed an hour before its due to leave so it calls additionally at Clapham Junction and East Croydon. Rather than actually having it in strike timetable as doing so.

There are other Gatwick Express services in the strike timetable that are booked to call at Clapham Junction and East Croydon, so it's not as if it doesn't exist.

Update. Actually may be it will only be 13, unlucky for some, as one of the strike days is a Saturday. Only time will tell.

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[Robertj21a]

I witnessed a spectacular driver's rant on my Thameslink train yesterday afternoon. I won't specify the train at the moment, but after an even more painful-than-usual crawl from Loughborough Junction to East Croydon, we then again crawled towards Purley and stopped three signals north of the station. The seething driver announced that we were running late "yet again" because "Network Rail don't know how to signal trains" and "this happens every day as you long-suffering commuters will know". A few titters around the carriage, and we then proceeded to Redhill, where we again came to a halt outside the station, with the driver then announcing that "we are now waiting for the Southern staff at Redhill to uncouple a train in the platform which will, as usual, take ages. Still, it's all Govia, so they still line their pockets". Further, louder laughter in the carriage. We arrived at Redhill about 20L.

Amazing stuff - a driver who either wanted to get home, or one who has strong views about the current GTR performance (or both)?

Oh, and for the third day running, the information screen stated that "We are now approaching London Blackfriars" all the way to Redhill!

I assume he will be disciplined ?

 

[Carlisle]

I assume he will be disciplined ?

I fear some sections of the railway culture these days have become just a tad similar to player power in the English Premiership,

 

[physics34]

I assume he will be disciplined ?

he needs to be more professional but i really dont like my colleagues being disciplined by means of telling tales on social media......(such as forums like this!)

 

[Starmill]

So another 14 days then of the 17.30 Gatwick Express to Brighton being changed an hour before its due to leave so it calls additionally at Clapham Junction and East Croydon. Rather than actually having it in strike timetable as doing so.

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Honesty the train leaves people behind as a 12 car with declassified 1st. I don't get why you'd want to travel on it. There's not an inch of space to fit a single marginal passenger - even a thin one.

 

[Deepgreen]

I assume he will be disciplined ?

I have debated whether to e-mail GTR, and have decided against it. While stunningly unprofessional (and honest!), it shows the level of anger/dissatisfaction among employees which I tend to share on their behalf and on behalf on those passengers who have been aware of the political puppetry at work of late and simply want a sensible solution. Angry/unhappy staff do not a solution make. BTW, as I have deliberately not identified the actual train in question here, there can be no evidence-based action against anyone based on my posts, even if certain assumptions may be made. I think the event was suitable for inclusion on this thread because it is directly relevant to the dispute and employee relations/morale at GTR, and it was most certainly in the category of "Information for GTR Southern Passengers...".

 

[infobleep]

Honesty the train leaves people behind as a 12 car with declassified 1st. I don't get why you'd want to travel on it. There's not an inch of space to fit a single marginal passenger - even a thin one.

Well I was able to board it at East Croydon one Wednesday I happened to be there. I may have been able to board another Wednesday. Just that at that point I didn't know they were amending the stopping pattern of this service one hour before it departs each day. Or at least the three days I noticed.

If it is indeed so full, why do GTR keep amending its stopping pattern an hour before it leaves? If theirs no room why aren't just just skipping Clapham Junction and East Croydon as the strike timetable claims it will do?

Something rather odd about it all.

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[Deepgreen]

On the four occasions this week that I have caught a southbound Thameslink train from Blackfriars to Redhill, the PIS has displayed "We are now approaching London Blackfriars" for the rest of the journey. Is this a known issue south of the Thames, or a series of separate issues?

 

[Carlisle]

Angry/unhappy staff do not a solution make. ".

I completely agree, but history since privatisation anyway suggests a total RMT victory here won't really deliver the overall staff happiness you'd like either , it merely creates a niche within the industry of a few powerful and extremely well rewarded essential employees whilst TOCs attempt efficiencies by cutting or outsourcing of station and ticket office functions, maintenance and cleaning staff revenue protection, admin and middle management roles etc

 

[infobleep]

Intresting to note that one service, a Southern service from London Victoria to Brighton made extra stops this morning due to a train from Bedford being cancelled. An online reason was put out for it being late due to this but it arrived at its destination on time and wasn't delayed at any stations throughout its journey, bar leaving Victoria a minute late!

In contrast a Gatwick Express train to Brighton left Victoria 5 minutes late and departed both Gatwick Airport and Haywards Heath 11 minutes late. However no announcement at all online or at the station. That sums up GTR and information to passengers.

Isn't the Gatwick Express meant to be a premium service? Or is that only in price and no more?

Needless to say that today at least, the Southern service was quicker than the Gatwick Express, although it didn't stop at Gatwick to be fair.

Thanks to I assume the guard I now know why the train was late. It started off from the wrong platform and the access gate was shut so passengers couldn't reach the time. On top of that there were some speed restrictions.

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[RichardKing]

Major disruption on the East Coastway this evening, owing to a track circuit failure in the Eastbourne area.

I imagine this will have a massive knock-on effect for services into/out of London Victoria this evening (not helped by the current situation on SN)!

As per usual, communication doesn't appear to be happening at certain affected stations.

 

[Deepgreen]

I completely agree, but history since privatisation anyway suggests a total RMT victory here won't really deliver the overall staff happiness you'd like either , it merely creates a niche within the industry of a few powerful and extremely well rewarded essential employees whilst TOCs attempt efficiencies by cutting or outsourcing of station and ticket office functions, maintenance and cleaning staff revenue protection, admin and middle management roles etc

No, it won't, you're right, but the level of disgruntlement at present is unsustainable. The staff (guards) I have encountered are, essentially, not carrying out anything but skeleton passenger service duties (ticket checking has all but vanished, even when they walk into/through first class, and TTIs have vanished again). Guards also continue to make pointless repeated P.A. announcements that simply copy what the (clearer) recorded announcements haver already just told us - why is this considered useful? Information during the dispute era has been a shambles in general, with the latest 'salt-in-the-wound' effort by Southern being the claim that Redhill to London services are back to normal - they are far from that, with numerous cancellations ascribed to staff shortages!

 

[infobleep]

Are they running additional services tomorrow compared to the previous strikes, given some services are now DOO, where as previously they were not?

I note the 17.30 Gatwick Express service is listed as stopping at Clapham Junction and East Croydon. That's the first time I've seen that listed over an hour in advance of the train service running. This in case it was more than 24 hours in advance! Amazing.

During previous strikes those two stops would get added within an hour of the trains departure from Victoria and these seemed to happen every time.

The 17.42 is only stopping at Clapham Junction though. I wonder if they will change within in an hour if it's departure time to include East Croydon?

I would put money on it changing.

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[hwl]

Are they running additional services tomorrow compared to the previous strikes, given some services are now DOO, where as previously they were not?

I note the 17.30 Gatwick Express service is listed as stopping at Clapham Junction and East Croydon. That's the first time I've seen that listed over an hour in advance of the train service running. This in case it was more than 24 hours in advance! Amazing.

During previous strikes those two stops would get added within an hour of the trains departure from Victoria and these seemed to happen every time.

The 17.42 is only stopping at Clapham Junction though. I wonder if they will change within in an hour if it's departure time to include East Croydon?

I would put money on it changing.

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About 80 more trains compared to last time.

 

[infobleep]

Except an engineering train broke down in Balcombe tunnel today. All lines now open but until about 8am no trains were heading north with very few heading south. So I doubt Govia will be able to claim more trains running than usual.

Still I'm sure they can blame Network Rail for the problems. It would look odd if they only blamed the guards for the strike though.

My brother had never seen so many people at Haywards Heath station. They were running a replacement bus to Tunbridge Wells, which stopped at various places on route, including Uckfield. I guess passengers could travel from Uckfield if that line has any trains today.

I wonder what it's like to recover from disruption during a strike timetable?

Interestingly there was a 4.25 bus to Three Bridges from Haywards Heath and a 5.35 bus to Brighton but nothing else, except the buses running to Tunbridge Wells. Were they already running buses to Tunbridge Wells? As it seems odd they didn't run those buses to Three Bridges and Brighton. What was the reason?

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[Xenophon PCDGS]

Except an engineering train broke down in Balcombe tunnel today. All lines now open but until about 8am no trains were heading north with very few heading south. So I doubt Govia will be able to claim more trains running than usual.

Still I'm sure they can blame Network Rail for the problems. It would look odd if they only blamed the guards for the strike though.

Who then, at what allegorical door would you lie the blame of a broken-down engineering train at?

 

[Deepgreen]

Who then, at what allegorical door would you lie the blame of a broken-down engineering train at?

A comma instead of a semi-colon, too many 'ats' and a 'lie' instead of a 'lay'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Except an engineering train broke down in Balcombe tunnel today. All lines now open but until about 8am no trains were heading north with very few heading south. So I doubt Govia will be able to claim more trains running than usual.

Still I'm sure they can blame Network Rail for the problems. It would look odd if they only blamed the guards for the strike though.

My brother had never seen so many people at Haywards Heath station. They were running a replacement bus to Tunbridge Wells, which stopped at various places on route, including Uckfield. I guess passengers could travel from Uckfield if that line has any trains today.

I wonder what it's like to recover from disruption during a strike timetable?

Interestingly there was a 4.25 bus to Three Bridges from Haywards Heath and a 5.35 bus to Brighton but nothing else, except the buses running to Tunbridge Wells. Were they already running buses to Tunbridge Wells? As it seems odd they didn't run those buses to Three Bridges and Brighton. What was the reason?

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RTT is not helping planning today, as it is displaying partial data - for example, I have seen many trains on the system which have not been activated, but which have run, or which have not been activated but have been cancelled.

It may be my wrong perception, but has a disproportionate number of NR (engineering) trains been failing lately? While I appreciate that they operate in 'challenging' conditions, this is surely what they need to be designed to take into account.

 

[BestWestern]

It may be my wrong perception, but has a disproportionate number of NR (engineering) trains been failing lately? While I appreciate that they operate in 'challenging' conditions, this is surely what they need to be designed to take into account.

A 'Network Rail' engineering train could in fact be anything, though. A ballast train with a DB/Freightliner/Colas/DRS loco at either end for example. I suspect it's just unfortunate coincidence.

 

[swt class 450]

I see that the Uckfield line now has four trains during the strike (two in each direction). Does this mean that some of the manangement Guards have been trained on 171s? If so how many have been trained?

Personally i think it would have been a much better idea to run a shuttle service between Oxted to Uckfield every two hours all day between 06:00 and 00:00 using just one train. Passengers could then change at Oxted for trains to and from London

I am also surprised that they are still not running any Redhill to Tonbridge services when most of these services are run by Southeastern Drivers and Southeastern Guards. I think it would have been better to run a shuttle service between Redhill to Tonbridge every two hours all day between 06:00 and 00:00 using just one train. Passengers could then change at Redhill or Tonbridge for trains to and from London.

Also i still dont see why they cant stop any trains at Faygate / Salfords / Earlswood when trains are actually still passing through these stations. There are actually quite a few people who use these stations.

I am a bit confused with what is happening on the Dorking - Holmwood - Ockley - Warnham - Horsham line through. All of the 377 trains (which are now all DOO) appear to be running in addition to rail replacement buses. It seems like it is just the few 455 trains (which still require a Guard) that are not running so i am not sure why rail replacement buses are being used all day in addition to the usual train services.

As usual the Southern management seem to have not planned the services during the strikes very well. But then Govia are not capable of doing anything properly.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Interestingly there was a 4.25 bus to Three Bridges from Haywards Heath and a 5.35 bus to Brighton but nothing else, except the buses running to Tunbridge Wells. Were they already running buses to Tunbridge Wells? As it seems odd they didn't run those buses to Three Bridges and Brighton. What was the reason?

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Yes the buses between Haywards Heath and Tunbridge Wells via Uckfield Buxted Crowborough and Eridge were already arranged. Only 2 trains this morning on the Uckfield line, one at 8.04 and.one at 8.34 so not a viable alternative.

There was some.operational incident on the East Grinstead line which meant no trains for a while. Southern tweeted grains were still remains a good running on the Uckfield line which lead to comments about it only being :2 etc

 

[infobleep]

Southern claimed 61% of services ran today. Well what percentage would it have been, had there not been the engineering train issues and the East Grinstead issues?

Did they divert trains elsewhere, just so something ran to keep the percentage up as high as possible? It wouldn't matter about Thameslink or Gatwick Express, as they were not part of today's strike. Or am I being too cynical?

I think they said shuttle train services were running between Haywards Heath and Brighton. However the 7.30 is still showing as delayed on National Rail Enquiries App and the 8.15 was cancelled. I don't know if any other shuttles were run.

At one stage around lunchtime, there was a 50 minute gap between train services heading north from Haywards Heath as late trains were being turned at Three Bridges.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes the buses between Haywards Heath and Tunbridge Wells via Uckfield Buxted Crowborough and Eridge were already arranged. Only 2 trains this morning on the Uckfield line, one at 8.04 and.one at 8.34 so not a viable alternative.

There was some.operational incident on the East Grinstead line which meant no trains for a while. Southern tweeted grains were still remains a good running on the Uckfield line which lead to comments about it only being :2 etc

What was the reason for these buses?

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[Deepgreen]

I see that the Uckfield line now has four trains during the strike (two in each direction). Does this mean that some of the manangement Guards have been trained on 171s? If so how many have been trained?

Personally i think it would have been a much better idea to run a shuttle service between Oxted to Uckfield every two hours all day between 06:00 and 00:00 using just one train. Passengers could then change at Oxted for trains to and from London

I am also surprised that they are still not running any Redhill to Tonbridge services when most of these services are run by Southeastern Drivers and Southeastern Guards. I think it would have been better to run a shuttle service between Redhill to Tonbridge every two hours all day between 06:00 and 00:00 using just one train. Passengers could then change at Redhill or Tonbridge for trains to and from London.

Also i still dont see why they cant stop any trains at Faygate / Salfords / Earlswood when trains are actually still passing through these stations. There are actually quite a few people who use these stations.

I am a bit confused with what is happening on the Dorking - Holmwood - Ockley - Warnham - Horsham line through. All of the 377 trains (which are now all DOO) appear to be running in addition to rail replacement buses. It seems like it is just the few 455 trains (which still require a Guard) that are not running so i am not sure why rail replacement buses are being used all day in addition to the usual train services.

As usual the Southern management seem to have not planned the services during the strikes very well. But then Govia are not capable of doing anything properly.

Quite, and if one removes the words "during the strike", this also applies! There was a RRB at Dorking today at 0735, presumably for any 455-operated workings. It's obviously beyond the wit of man to re-roster some workings to ensure 377s operate all the Horsham line service and 455s move to the suburbs to join the rest of the fleet there - at least then people would know a train, not a bus (i.e. no bikes, heavy luggage, buggies, etc) awaited them.