HOW do trains 'turn around' at St. Pancras

[suzanneparis]

Just been wondering, how do trains turn around at St Pancras if they only have an engine at one end?

For example if you have a train with one engine on the route from Leicester to London St. Pancras what happens for the return journey? How is the train turned around so that the engine is at the front of the train for the return journey?

IF it can by some means or other turn around how long does it take?

Thanks and sorry if this is a silly question.

 

[GW43125]

Just been wondering, how do trains turn around at St Pancras if they only have an engine at one end?

For example if you have a train with one engine on the route from Leicester to London St. Pancras what happens for the return journey? How is the train turned around so that the engine is at the front of the train for the return journey?

IF it can by some means or other turn around how long does it take?

Thanks and sorry if this is a silly question.

They haven't had loco-hauled trains that do this in years.

Though I presume when they did it would be like the did at Kings Cross:, train arrives detach loco at buffer end, another loco on top at the country end, couple, that new loco takes it out, releasing the other loco.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Just been wondering, how do trains turn around at St Pancras if they only have an engine at one end?

For example if you have a train with one engine on the route from Leicester to London St. Pancras what happens for the return journey? How is the train turned around so that the engine is at the front of the train for the return journey?

IF it can by some means or other turn around how long does it take?

Thanks and sorry if this is a silly question.

Trains that run from Leicester to St Pancras will be formed of either Meridian units (222's i believe) or HST's. Meridian units are fixed formation trains with a cab at each end, with each coach powered. HST's are the same thing in principle but with, what amounts to a loco(of sorts) at each end. So the train does not need to turn around, the driver just changes end.

 

[Ianno87]

The East Midlands Timetable Planning State that to detach a loco at one end, and attach a second loco at the other end requires a standard absolute minimum of 12 minutes.

If this were still the practice today at St Pancras, almost all trains would certainly be timetabled for longer anyway, to recover any late running on inward journeys (probably at least 20 minutes or more)

You'd also need to consider where the 'fresh' loco was held out of the way whilst waiting for the inward train to arrive - at St Pancras that would probably need to be on the Up/Down Relief line towards Kentish Town so it could come straight in on top of an arrival. Most other terminal stations had a loco siding somewhere off the ends of the platforms where the waiting loco could be kept (e.g. Manchester Piccadilly and Liverpool Lime Streer)

 

[suzanneparis]

Many thanks all of you.

So, it is not possible to use just one loco. ie it reverses the entire train out of the station then detaches from the train then goes to some siding or turntable then re-ataches to the front of the train?

 

[suzanneparis]

sub question. Do trains at St P get refuelled in the station and have their toilets emptied? And how long does that take?

 

[Andrew1395]

Many thanks all of you.

So, it is not possible to use just one loco. ie it reverses the entire train out of the station then detaches from the train then goes to some siding or turntable then re-ataches to the front of the train?

I don't think the layout at St Pancras allows you to do that . At Euston you could propel the coaching stock into one of the backing out roads. Detach, run round, reattach at the other end of the stock, and drop back into a platform. But routinely you would use another locomotives to draw stock into a BOR, that released the engine on the stops, and then you dropped the stock back into a platform with the second loco ready to take the train. Of course with virtually all trains now either multiple units or having traction at each end this does not happen.

 

[headshot119]

sub question. Do trains at St P get refuelled in the station and have their toilets emptied? And how long does that take?

HSTs dump the toilet waste straight onto the track, they don't need emptying. 222s have CET which can only be emptied at a place with CET equipment (Mianly depots I don't think any station has it, St Pancras certainly doesn't). Both are topped up with water at St Pancras.

Refuelling is only done on depots.

 

[AlterEgo]

Many thanks all of you.

So, it is not possible to use just one loco. ie it reverses the entire train out of the station then detaches from the train then goes to some siding or turntable then re-ataches to the front of the train?

Not really, and that wouldn't be desirable, because it takes up lots of time and extra staff. That's why the current setup across almost every train in the country is to ensure trains can be operated from both ends.

 

[suzanneparis]

Many thanks everyone.

I must be mistaken but I thought I travelled to london on a train with a loco at the front - rather older stock. But I must be wrong.

 

[The Planner]

I don't think the layout at St Pancras allows you to do that . At Euston you could propel the coaching stock into one of the backing out roads. Detach, run round, reattach at the other end of the stock, and drop back into a platform. But routinely you would use another locomotives to draw stock into a BOR, that released the engine on the stops, and then you dropped the stock back into a platform with the second loco ready to take the train. Of course with virtually all trains now either multiple units or having traction at each end this does not happen.

You can't now, they have been taken out of use for HS2 construction.

 

[suzanneparis]

'dump toilet waste straight onto the track'. doesn't that present a health hazard for track maintenance staff?

 

[notlob.divad]

This two loco manouver does occasionally happen on specials arriving at Liverpool Lime Street. (Grand National Day, Football Specials etc) the 2nd loco waits in he sidings at Edge Hill.

The top and tail train then usually heads to Crewe to do the run around manouver and layover

The problem is it takes an extra path in each direction to bring the 2nd Loco on and then to let it leave at the end. So to return to using this on a regular basis would be a serious dent to capacity on the modern railway.

 

[Roast Veg]

Since HS1 there haven't been any railtours to STP (that I know of) owing to capacity, which means no loco haulage. My best guess would be that it might be possible to run around at Kentish Town if it was so desperately desired, but I doubt it's been accommodated into the signalling.

 

[swt_passenger]

'dump toilet waste straight onto the track'. doesn't that present a health hazard for track maintenance staff?

Very much so. It is one of a number of reasons that HSTs are considered obsolescent, and their use now has a finite cut off date.

 

[yorkie]

Many thanks all of you.

So, it is not possible to use just one loco. ie it reverses the entire train out of the station then detaches from the train then goes to some siding or turntable then re-ataches to the front of the train?

It is possible, but it is vastly easier to have a driving cab at both ends of the train.

The facilities to allow a loco to run around a train even remotely practicable are largely long gone from many stations, however!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Since HS1 there haven't been any railtours to STP (that I know of) owing to capacity, which means no loco haulage. My best guess would be that it might be possible to run around at Kentish Town if it was so desperately desired, but I doubt it's been accommodated into the signalling.

The only railtours that I'm aware of that might have started or ended at St Pancras are the Javelin ones run close to Remembrance Day.

 

[MarkyT]

No one mentioned push-pull working which is where you have a locomotive at one end and at the other end carriage with a driving cab from which the loco can be remote controlled. In Paris a form of this this was used on some suburban services with steam engines until the early 1970s. At next door Kings Cross, class 91 locomotives work in the push pull mode on routes to the North East with a 'driver trailer' carriage at the other end of the train.

HSTs can also be considered a form of push-pull with two streamlined power cars, each a fully self-contained locomotibe really but with only one driving cab. One is attached to each end of the train and one can remote control the other.

Yet another form of traditional working involves no running round, but rather the engine that brought the train into the terminus just uncouples and waits while a new engine is attached to the front for departure, then the engine at the buffer stop shunts out to a holding siding where it can wait to drop onto the front of a subsequent train.

 

[Barn]

Many thanks everyone.

I must be mistaken but I thought I travelled to london on a train with a loco at the front - rather older stock. But I must be wrong.

You were probably on an HST, which has another power car at the other end of the train. One pushes and the other pulls.

 

[43074]

The only railtours that I'm aware of that might have started or ended at St Pancras are the Javelin ones run close to Remembrance Day.

There have been numerous tours run in association between EMT and UK Railtours from St Pancras to various heritage railways - including the North Norfolk and the Keighley & Worth Valley, for instance.

 

[Jordeh]

I recall some Class 67s running extra services or providing backup during the London Olympics. I presume there were 67s at both ends.

 

[QueensCurve]

They haven't had loco-hauled trains that do this in years.

Though I presume when they did it would be like the did at Kings Cross:, train arrives detach loco at buffer end, another loco on top at the country end, couple, that new loco takes it out, releasing the other loco.

This is how it was done at most termini up until the mid 1980s. At that stage, BR recognised this was a costly way to operate due to being labour intensive and trapping locomotives unproductively between the train and the buffer stop.

Fixed formation trains in the form of HSTs with a driving power car on either end came onto most of the InterCity routes in the late 1970s and the routes out of Euston were converted to fixed formation trains of the Push Pull type with a loco attached to the North end of the set and a Driving Van Trailer (not to be confused with delirium tremens) at the South end.

There is a health hazard from toilets discharging onto the line. I seem to recall there was a hepatitis risk to those working on the track.

 

[GW43125]

This is how it was done at most termini up until the mid 1980s. At that stage, BR recognised this was a costly way to operate due to being labour intensive and trapping locomotives unproductively between the train and the buffer stop.

And then comes the issue of when trains are late, the locos are trapped which knocks on to lots of other services!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Since HS1 there haven't been any railtours to STP (that I know of) owing to capacity, which means no loco haulage. My best guess would be that it might be possible to run around at Kentish Town if it was so desperately desired, but I doubt it's been accommodated into the signalling.

Don't think there is the facility to do that at Kentish Town (I reckon it'd block one or both of the slow lines at the north end), I think they'd have to go to Cricklewood Yard.

 

[Trog]

'dump toilet waste straight onto the track'. doesn't that present a health hazard for track maintenance staff?

Never seemed to do me and my colleagues any harm.

 

[AM9]

... and a Driving Van Trailer (not to be confused with delirium tremens) at the South end.

I think you mean Deep Vein Thrombosis.

 

[bastien]

The loco would change ends at Reading on the cross country trains up from Poole. As I recall, about half the time something would go wrong (who knows what) and cause an hour's delay. Ditto for changing the 47 for an electric at New Street.

Happy days!

 

[Comstock]

Very much so. It (dumping toilet waste onto the track) is one of a number of reasons that HSTs are considered obsolescent, and their use now has a finite cut off date.

I can't believe they are *still* doing this. What is the cut off date, do you know?

 

[najaB]

I can't believe they are *still* doing this. What is the cut off date, do you know?

2019 in line with the PRM cutoff as well, is it not?

 

[Comstock]

I don't know how easy it is to add retention tanks to HSTs. If it is straightforward I would imagine it would have been done already.