Pushchairs on trains

[BestWestern]

...If he's asleep in the pushchair, then sorry, we're not taking him out and folding it up for anyone, it's us that'll suffer later on in the day when he becomes over tired because he's been woke up. He usually just goes in the disabled bay or any free vestibule or space big enough, out of the way.

It is, of course, entirely your choice whether or not to fold the buggy when asked to do so. Do bear in mind, though, that it is entirely at the discretion of the railway staff who are making the request whether or not you travel if the above answer comes back. If there's no room for it, it needs to be folded, sleeping child or not. And yes, to counter the usual attack that gets trotted out when you go into battle, I do have my own!

Sadly, parents who find it deeply offensive that they might need to do their bit for society and fold the buggy can be a routine cause of conflict and delay, depending on location and time of year. To watch a fleet of them attempting to mount an assault on a busy two car train really does hammer home the point that sometimes in life personal convenience is placed well ahead of common sense. I'd be interested to see how these same people react to a similar scenario on a bus; I'd wager most of them politely comply.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yep.

There seem to be a lot of people who don't realise that with young children and buggies come all the clutter that is required to keep them vaguely clean, protected from the elements and entertained. For the first 3 years at least you daren't leave home without any of this stuff even for very short trips! So, most of the time buggies cannot be folded even when the child is not in there. Most parents in my experience do their level best to keep buggies from inconveniencing people.

Rubbish!
We managed to do that with 3 children, 2 stll in nappies. All it needs is a little thought and preparation before the journey.

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm all for life being easier for parents in terms of being able to keep the child in a pushchair if possible. However I do think many current day parents, such as in the comment above, over-estimate the difficulty of having to fold the pushchair up if necessary. Those of us who had young childrrn 20 years ago, when there were far fewer trains with pushchair spaces, still had the same amount of additional clutter of changing bags etc. but still managed to fold the pushchair up and move the child into our lao. It's far from impossible.

Quite!

 

[muz379]

My tocs policy is for buggies to be folded when possible , no aisles or doorways blocked as is the case with other luggage . And wheelchairs will always take priority in the space designated for their use .

Personally how the policy is applied will depend on who the guard is , how busy the service is and what room is left to accommodate a buggy . Somebody turning up to a peak time service with a non folding buggy might find themselves unable to board in the same way someone with a bike or other bulky item of luggage may . Some guards might wait a minute or two for someone to fold a buggy on a platform . Others apply the view that if you are not ready to board then it is tough wait for the next one .


I always advise passengers placing their buggies in the wheelchair space that if later in the journey a wheelchair user wishes to join the train then they would be expected to move and/or could have to fold their buggy. The same with bike spaces . Only once have I had someone refuse to move their buggy for a wheelchair user . And this was promptly dealt with by the station supervisor who was boarding the passenger pointing out to them that unless the wheelchair user who had pre booked could be boarded the train would not be moving . Much tutting later and we had one folded buggy in the luggage rack and one wheelchair user on board .

From experience working in housing most parents now treat having a child as being a serious illness. I had a customer today who's radiator in the kitchen wasn't working, I gave them the next available appointment in two weeks and it wasn't good enough because they have a baby, I don't know why they leave the baby in the kitchen but hey ho. No house I have ever lived in has a radiator in the kitchen. My mum managed 40 years ago folding up a buggy to get on a bus or a train, some of these "babies" can swear as well as the parents as well these days.

I tend to agree that ever increasing numbers of parents seem to think the world should revolve around their choice to have children . As a side note the house I grew up in had a radiator in the kitchen . It constantly had the supply tap closed so was never used , always seemed strange especially given it was a small kitchen which quickly got warm once you started cooking .

 

[ComUtoR]

Buggies are surprisingly good at maximizing space. It has a chair for the mini human, carries shopping, supplies and acts as a convenient transportation device. All within a pretty compact space. Suitcases and bikes take up more space.

Folding it up requires the thing to be unloaded and the child given a seat (which they typically don't pay for) The resulting spread of everything a buggy holds is easily more of an issue.

 

[Thebaz]

Buggies are surprisingly good at maximizing space. It has a chair for the mini human, carries shopping, supplies and acts as a convenient transportation device. All within a pretty compact space. Suitcases and bikes take up more space.

Folding it up requires the thing to be unloaded and the child given a seat (which they typically don't pay for) The resulting spread of everything a buggy holds is easily more of an issue.

Good point about space maximisation.

 

[BestWestern]

Buggies are surprisingly good at maximizing space. It has a chair for the mini human, carries shopping, supplies and acts as a convenient transportation device. All within a pretty compact space. Suitcases and bikes take up more space.

Folding it up requires the thing to be unloaded and the child given a seat (which they typically don't pay for) The resulting spread of everything a buggy holds is easily more of an issue.

However, all of those items, including generally the folded buggy itself, can be stored in a manner which doesn't obstruct exits, aisles, access to on board facilities and of course wheelchairs.

An interesting point to note; there is nowhere to store an unfolded buggy on a five car Class 800. The only wheelchair space is in First, with wheelchair users being granted an automatic upgrade which doesn't apply to those with a pushchair! There are no other areas, with the exception of the small cycle/luggage cubbies out in the vestibule, that you'd get a buggy. It'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

 

[Taunton]

If your son was asleep in the disabled bay, would you move for a person in a wheelchair who needs the space?

So we have there two humans in two wheeled units who are unable to walk.

Can you please explain how the one now boarding has some right over the one already there.

 

[Timrud]

Yes, one is disabled so is a higher priority.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I have a 2 year old son, my partner and I have been on several trains with him, not had any real issues.

If he's asleep in the pushchair, then sorry, we're not taking him out and folding it up for anyone, it's us that'll suffer later on in the day when he becomes over tired because he's been woke up. He usually just goes in the disabled bay or any free vestibule or space big enough, out of the way.

Is a person in a wheelchair also "anyone" for the purpose of your remark here?

Only issues we've ever had was trying to board an EMT 156 at Matlock, late evening, very lightly loaded service, we go to lift the pushchair into one of the doors behind the cab, guard runs up to us and says something like "Instead of trying to ram it on here where it's obviously not going to fit, use the other end of the train, like you're meant to"... Must remember the crystal ball next time.

It would appear that as a result of the guard's help you ended up in a more suitable part of the train and all you're actually complaining about, given you were allowed to take a passenger and a vary large piece of luggage free, is the rather trivial matter of exactly how you were spoken to. You didn't need a crystal ball if the lack of space where you were boarding was apparent.

 

[221129]

So we have there two humans in two wheeled units who are unable to walk.

Can you please explain how the one now boarding has some right over the one already there.

Because the law says so.

 

[muz379]

So we have there two humans in two wheeled units who are unable to walk.

Can you please explain how the one now boarding has some right over the one already there.

Are you really trying to equate a wheelchair user to a child in a buggy .

To start with the child can be held by an adult who will be accompanying them

No such requirement for accompaniment exists with wheelchair users , in fact they often travel alone .

 

[twpsaesneg]

So we have there two humans in two wheeled units who are unable to walk.

Can you please explain how the one now boarding has some right over the one already there.

Because it is feasible and reasonable to pick up the child and hold them / seat them next to you, and fold down the buggy. That cannot be reasonably expected of a wheelchair user.

 

[OneOffDave]

So we have there two humans in two wheeled units who are unable to walk.

Can you please explain how the one now boarding has some right over the one already there.

Being a baby doesn't constitute a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 for starters. If the child is small enough to fit in a pushchair then they are small enough to go on a parent's lap. I don't see many people being willing to take an adult wheelchair user sat on their laps.

Also a buggy folds, good luck trying to fold my wheelchair.

Just to be clear I'm not including those buggies for older disabled children that act in lieu of a wheelchair such as the Maclaren Major Buggy

 

[ComUtoR]

However, all of those items, including generally the folded buggy itself, can be stored in a manner which doesn't obstruct exits, aisles, access to on board facilities and of course wheelchairs.

Not always. They hold a shocking volume of items. Most of all, the small tiny human. Where to you then place the child ? With a buggy I take up a single chair (typically I stood with the pushchair) and a buggy sized space. When its folded I take up 2 chairs, changing bag, personal bags, shopping and whatever clutter I have and a buggy sized space. All the crap they carry needs to go somewhere.

An interesting point to note; there is nowhere to store an unfolded buggy on a five car Class 800. The only wheelchair space is in First, with wheelchair users being granted an automatic upgrade which doesn't apply to those with a pushchair! There are no other areas, with the exception of the small cycle/luggage cubbies out in the vestibule, that you'd get a buggy. It'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

Space on any train is limited. Even the disabled space tends to hold a single wheelchair. How do you limit space to specific people ? Should units have dedicated pushchair/pram spaces ? What about dedicated luggage coaches to put the numerous suitcases ? Space is limited and we all have to share the space.

Why are parents with children treated with such disdain when traveling. Leisure travel and family tickets are a good source of income to a TOC and actively encouraged. If you have ever traveled on SE's seaside express you can see how efficient parents, kids and buggies can be.

 

[Darandio]

No such requirement for accompaniment exists with wheelchair users , in fact they often travel alone .

This seems to be the case for many children in pushchairs as well, given how much notice the parent often takes of them whilst their head is buried in a phone.

Anyway, our youngest of three is now out of the pushchair and we always adopted the same policy. Normally, we would fold it up before boarding any train regardless of space. If we had shopping we would sometimes leave it down and use the space provided but would happily fold if someone else needed the space. This rarely had to happen.

 

[Darandio]

It's also worth adding that this type of thread has cropped up regularly, and I often defend the single parent who may have no choice but to go and get the shopping by train, that then makes it very difficult to fold down a pushchair loaded with multiple bags. Such suggestions from the anti-parent brigade ranged from not using the train and finding alternative transport at more expense, spreading the weekly shop at more expense or not having children at all.

 

[cuccir]

Trains don't have spaces dedicated for pushchairs. I think it's fine for a pushchair user to take up unused wheelchair, cycle storage, vestibule space or whatever, but I also think probably that you need to be prepared to fold down if needed.

I often defend the single parent who may have no choice but to go and get the shopping by train, that then makes it very difficult to fold down a pushchair loaded with multiple bags.

While I sympathize in theory, are there many people actually doing this? The geography would have to be quite specific: the walk home-station and station-supermarket would have to be sufficiently short in comparison from the home-supermarket walk to justify the cost of the train ticket, which if someone is struggling that much is going to be quite a significant chunk. And even without the restrictions of a train, doing a weekly shop with a pushchair is probably just not psychically possible if you need to walk home any distance from the supermarket: even a frugal shop for a family of two (adult+child) for a week is going to be too big for most people.

So I suspect our hypothetical single parent is either getting home delivery (some supermarkets such as the Co-Op and Iceland offer this for free, and at others it can usually be done for a few pounds or free over a certain price eg £40 at Tesco: and anyway, the cost of delivery would usually be less than a train ticket if you do have to pay it), having to split their shop anyway, leaving kid with family/friends, or taking a bus which serves them much more door-to-door, rather than using the train. I mean I'm sure somewhere there is someone it works out to get the train, but I do struggle to imagine how it would - you'd have to live very close to a station, on a line where a supermarket is close to the station, and a longish walk from a supermarket yourself, where the train ticket costs less than online delivery.

 

[Darandio]

While I sympathize in theory, are there many people actually doing this?

I think there are, certainly from what I have seen personally but it normally isn't food shopping as such.

In terms of home delivery as an alternative, it isn't an alternative for many who still use the Post Office as a means of receiving benefits. Many, many still do in this area as evidenced by my experience working in welfare to work and the queue forming out of the Post Office most mornings!

I've no idea how both of the above relate nationwide, but part of the point of my original post was referring to the anti-parent/pushchair sentiment that exists here and in previous similar threads.

 

[Raul_Duke]

But back on topic, there’s absoloutely nothing wrong with putting a buggy in an UNREQUIRED disabled bay on a train.

Provided you shift it when required.

If you have a baby, then in the western world in 2018 a buggy is essential when out and about.

A pretentious folding bike, or even worse a carbon fibre racing bike on a rush hour train, is arguably not.

 

[BestWestern]

Not always. They hold a shocking volume of items. Most of all, the small tiny human. Where to you then place the child ? With a buggy I take up a single chair (typically I stood with the pushchair) and a buggy sized space. When its folded I take up 2 chairs, changing bag, personal bags, shopping and whatever clutter I have and a buggy sized space. All the crap they carry needs to go somewhere.



Space on any train is limited. Even the disabled space tends to hold a single wheelchair. How do you limit space to specific people ? Should units have dedicated pushchair/pram spaces ? What about dedicated luggage coaches to put the numerous suitcases ? Space is limited and we all have to share the space.

Why are parents with children treated with such disdain when traveling. Leisure travel and family tickets are a good source of income to a TOC and actively encouraged. If you have ever traveled on SE's seaside express you can see how efficient parents, kids and buggies can be.

The 'crap they carry' goes in the luggage rack, the child in your arms. A folded buggy ideally goes in a rack, or at the very least can be placed somewhere largely out of the way, presenting a smaller footprint than when it's unfolded. I'm not sure where this idea that a buggy has to hold several tons of junk is coming from. You buy a changing bag, which is perfectly adequate for the storage of a baby or toddler's essentials. Aside from that, you might have some shopping I suppose, although that's more usually buses than trains. What on earth else is everybody carrying on there?! As you rightly say, space is limited. Therefore, folding a buggy that is specifically designed to be folded for storage is a perfectly reasonable requirement. Don't turn up with half your personal belongings hanging off of it, and the business of folding and storing it is a lot easier!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

If you have a baby, then in the western world in 2018 a buggy is essential when out and about.

A pretentious folding bike, or even worse a carbon fibre racing bike on a rush hour train, is arguably not.

Worst comment on these forums in 2018 so far. I dare you to come and explain to Fegg Junior (18 months) how his buggy is better than any of our bikes. He won't be having it. As soon as he gets home from nursery he finds his bike helmet and wants to go for a ride...

 

[xc170]

If your son was asleep in the disabled bay, would you move for a person in a wheelchair who needs the space?

That is very selfish of you.

So sod the disabled person that might have actually booked the wheelchair space, as long as you are OK it doesn't matter about the inconvenience caused to others

Oh dear, obviously I would move him. That being said, I usually travel off peak on trains that have more than enough wheelchair spaces, can't say I've ever been on a train with more than one whee'chair user.

It would appear that as a result of the guard's help you ended up in a more suitable part of the train and all you're actually complaining about, given you were allowed to take a passenger and a vary large piece of luggage free, is the rather trivial matter of exactly how you were spoken to. You didn't need a crystal ball if the lack of space where you were boarding was apparent.

Sorry, forgot the unwritten RUK rule of Thou shall not criticise rail staff.

If the lack of space was apparent, do you REALLY think I would have tried to board there? No.

My partner was also quite shocked by how rude the guard was to us, so a complaint was submitted to the TOC.

 

[Raul_Duke]

Hahaha. Best comment on these forums in 2018 so far.



Worst comment on these forums in 2018 so far. I dare you to come and explain to Fegg Junior (18 months) how his buggy is better than any of our bikes. He won't be having it. As soon as he gets home from nursery he finds his bike helmet and wants to go for a ride...

He’s not a ‘baby’ at 18months though. I was referring to smaller, immobile children. I should have been clearer.

Also, I can only speak from experience, but some times it’s handy to have a toddler strapped into something they can’t escape from when out and about!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Also, I can only speak from experience, but some times it’s handy to have a toddler strapped into something they can’t escape from when out and about!

Very true!

He's now at the stage where he won't stay in the buggy on trains anyway, as he always wants to look out the window and say "bye bye" to every passing tree...

 

[xc170]

Very true!

He's now at the stage where he won't stay in the buggy on trains anyway, as he always wants to look out the window and say "bye bye" to every passing tree...

Mine is getting to that stage, he'd be running up and down the train generally being a massive annoyance to everyone else.

 

[221129]

In my and most of my colleagues opinion if a buggy is not in the way (blocking doors,vestibules,wheelchair spaces when it is required) then no problem but as soon as it becomes an obstruction it needs to be folded or removed.

 

[Llanigraham]

So true.
Mine is getting to that stage, he'd be running up and down the train generally being a massive annoyance to everyone else.

Then I suggest that you do not have adequate control over your child.
Take things for him to be occupied sitting down.

(Father of 3, graandfather of 2)

 

[pt_mad]

XCs policy is the pushchair has to be folded at all times if it wants to travel. Although it depends on the staff/how busy it is for it to be enforced. Wheelchair space officially has to be kept clear by law.

Having read some of the experiences above, would the TOC expect the parent/s to fold even if they had all the items mentioned earlier hanging on: the pushchair, and perhaps the child was asleep?

We've seen so far that many experiences are that parents simply wish to and expect to leave the pushchair standing, and leave baby in pushchair. So how suitable or appropriate is any policy which stipulates that pushchairs must be folded?

 

[johnkingeu]

It’s depressing how often this conversation revolves around how we can make the mini humans, disabled passengers, harassed parents, or squashed commuters fit into the ever smaller spaces government permits them to inhabit rather than how we can redesign our stations and trains to make life easier for everybody (including not forcing people to fold buggies with one hand while balancing a child in the other).

Incidentally the new 700s are great for buggies due to the horrendous narrow seats!