Class 710 LO

[Old Hill Bank]

All should have been at WMT now to be diagrammed in September (Snow Hill strengthening) so just loosing one for three months seems about best likely case given the works needed by WMT. It doesn’t substantially affect the timetable, what more do you think should have been done?

So has the said 172 gone anywhere or is it still at Willesden as I suppose they could all be cycled through works and sub-leased back then all handed over to WMR in November.

 

[plcd1]

Has any 710 testing started on the GOBLIN?

As said above there are no 710s in London. The one used for the "media event" was immediately towed back to Derby. As the 710s have not got type approval from Network Rail they can't run anywhere on the NR network. One is still at Asfordby test track. 30+ completed trains are currently clogging up Litchurch Lane and production has been slowed down as there is no more storage space.

Bombardier have to get that NR sign off but then, AIUI, face a myriad of issues such as getting the completed trains into a "final" state in terms of signed off software etc then delivery then driver training then maintenance staff familiarisation then fault free mileage accumulation. The trains will also have to be "cleared" on the GOBLIN and other routes which will take more time. Now we have to hope that Arriva actually have enough staff so that they don't have to cancel trains to allow drivers to be trained on the new trains or to drive the trains for mileage accumulation (I guess drivers from cos with wide route knowledge could be used for this if done away from the GOBLIN itself). Only then can we expect to see 710s being formally tested on the GOBLIN. I'm sorry but unless some miracles are about to happen I struggle to see how all that can be done for 8 trains by November. It's not even clear to me whether the LO diesel sidings at Willesden have actually been wired and signed off for use yet - there was a reference in a TfL report to this work being "ongoing". Even if LO get the 710s into service by November there are no guarantees about service quality as we know what happens with new trains - they conk out a lot and staff face a steep learning curve to identify and fix faults. The Aventra is a brand new design so there's little to fall back on - LO own the "learning curve" with these trains.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Ah my mistake, I thought post 444 meant that testing would commence soon.

 

[Wivenswold]

I would hope that the issues aren't affecting the Class 720 build, if that slips then GA have a huge problem on their hands too.

 

[samuelmorris]

I would almost guarantee that it will - testing/commissioning delays that result in a load of unused units sitting around would surely hamper the 720 production line, either for being able to store units, or that they would be affected by the same issues that have prevented the 710s from passing tests. The fact that 345s have only just reached the 2000 MTIN mark after a year in service should also be a bit concerning.

 

[Mikey C]

As said above there are no 710s in London. The one used for the "media event" was immediately towed back to Derby. As the 710s have not got type approval from Network Rail they can't run anywhere on the NR network. One is still at Asfordby test track. 30+ completed trains are currently clogging up Litchurch Lane and production has been slowed down as there is no more storage space.

Bombardier have to get that NR sign off but then, AIUI, face a myriad of issues such as getting the completed trains into a "final" state in terms of signed off software etc then delivery then driver training then maintenance staff familiarisation then fault free mileage accumulation. The trains will also have to be "cleared" on the GOBLIN and other routes which will take more time. Now we have to hope that Arriva actually have enough staff so that they don't have to cancel trains to allow drivers to be trained on the new trains or to drive the trains for mileage accumulation (I guess drivers from cos with wide route knowledge could be used for this if done away from the GOBLIN itself). Only then can we expect to see 710s being formally tested on the GOBLIN. I'm sorry but unless some miracles are about to happen I struggle to see how all that can be done for 8 trains by November. It's not even clear to me whether the LO diesel sidings at Willesden have actually been wired and signed off for use yet - there was a reference in a TfL report to this work being "ongoing". Even if LO get the 710s into service by November there are no guarantees about service quality as we know what happens with new trains - they conk out a lot and staff face a steep learning curve to identify and fix faults. The Aventra is a brand new design so there's little to fall back on - LO own the "learning curve" with these trains.

Well TfL have the main Aventra learning curve with the 345s. Elizabeth Line services are due to commence in December, any issues with the 345s will completely overshadow any GOBLIN issues!

 

[plcd1]

Well TfL have the main Aventra learning curve with the 345s. Elizabeth Line services are due to commence in December, any issues with the 345s will completely overshadow any GOBLIN issues!

Well yes and no. They are at least running the 345s so are gaining operational and maintenance experience from this. They have an sizeable fleet of trains available to cover any breakdowns. The core service in December is pretty self contained so while breakdowns will be embarrassing they are unlikely to wreck other services. There are (apparently) lots and lots of drivers in place who have both simulator and traction experience which gives MTR Crossrail some advantages. If there are problems with Crossrail come December they are very unlikely to be driver and rolling stock related. TfL have discretion as to when they actually launch Crossrail services.

This is not really the case for Arriva with their need to manage a phased transition to new rolling stock and still provide a public service on the Overground. There will be some cut across from class 345 experience but possibly not a huge amount given the train management systems are different.

 

[332 > 444]

Well TfL have the main Aventra learning curve with the 345s. Elizabeth Line services are due to commence in December, any issues with the 345s will completely overshadow any GOBLIN issues!

You mustn't forget that the software on 345s is based off the Electrostar whilst the 710/720 will have the new Aventra software.

 

[33021]

That’s not true - 345 software is new

 

[MrPIC]

I also heard that the 345 software was a tarted up looking version as that from Electrostar with the 710 onward having an entirely new software which was causing all the issues

 

[D365]

Software seems to be a bit of a sticking point when it comes to the introduction of new rolling stock fleets.

 

[greatkingrat]

Another train has now been delivered to Willesden (710262) - this is not the one used for the launch.

 

[dp21]

I also heard that the 345 software was a tarted up looking version as that from Electrostar with the 710 onward having an entirely new software which was causing all the issues

Yup this is accurate and the truth.

Last I heard the trains were running but required a bloke with a laptop to reset the traction package every so often.

May have changed in recent weeks!

 

[kennythelad]

Another train has now been delivered to Willesden (710262) - this is not the one used for the launch.

There were two units inside Willesden shed at 1700, tonight. Couldn’t Id either, I’m afraid.

 

[iphone76]

Yup this is accurate and the truth.

Last I heard the trains were running but required a bloke with a laptop to reset the traction package every so often.

May have changed in recent weeks!

Nope. Still the same. I believe our "train riders" will be with us for the foreseeable future.

 

[Bayum]

Yup this is accurate and the truth.

Last I heard the trains were running but required a bloke with a laptop to reset the traction package every so often.

May have changed in recent weeks!

Nope. Still the same. I believe our "train riders" will be with us for the foreseeable future.

Say again?

 

[slick]

Say again?

Refering to the Bombardier fitters who still ride with every Aventra 345

 

[Mikey C]

Refering to the Bombardier fitters who still ride with every Aventra 345 and look set to ride 710s for probably the rest of their career if this is anything to go by

If every Aventra needs a Bombardier employee on board to keep them going, that's a useful way of mopping up unemployment in the Derby area

 

[superkev]

Refering to the Bombardier fitters who still ride with every Aventra 345 and look set to ride 710s for probably the rest of their career if this is anything to go by

I'm beginning to wonder if any part of the UK rail industry can get anything right or on time.
K

 

[iphone76]

I'm beginning to wonder if any part of the UK rail industry can get anything right or on time.
K

I'm told they are going to be riding through the tunnels as well, so it's obviously a long term gig.

They liaise with the official technician based in the control room and assist with issues as they arise such as locking out doors / resetting Mcbs which aren't available to the driver, etc. They also prep the trains each day and take downloads each evening as to how the train has performed during the day.

 

[332 > 444]

Refering to the Bombardier fitters who still ride with every Aventra 345 and look set to ride 710s for probably the rest of their career if this is anything to go by

This is the company that throw their toys out the pram when they don't win a contract......viva la Siemens (yes I'm biased)
If they can't get these in service by November fines should start to be handed out! The peak busting extras are a lifesaver.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Class 365s anyone?

 

[332 > 444]

Class 365s anyone?

I'll take 315s which is what the line's user group suggested!

 

[Fincra5]

Refering to the Bombardier fitters who still ride with every Aventra 345 and look set to ride 710s for probably the rest of their career if this is anything to go by

Bit like when the 700s came in, every train (near enough) had a Siemens fitter travelling onboard! . I think they're still around .. incase!

 

[swt_passenger]

Don’t Bombardier still have travelling fitters going up and down all day on the various XC legs, able to troubleshoot Voyager faults?

 

[Mikey C]

I'll take 315s which is what the line's user group suggested!

In retrospect starting electric services with the displaced 315s would have been a good idea, as with the delays to the 710s, they would have done good service on the line (and worth the driver training etc)

 

[hwl]

In retrospect starting electric services with the displaced 315s would have been a good idea, as with the delays to the 710s, they would have done good service on the line (and worth the driver training etc)

What about installing DOO cameras on all the platforms for the 315s?

 

[Fincra5]

What about installing DOO cameras on all the platforms for the 315s?

Far too expensive for the time.

 

[47802]

Bit like when the 700s came in, every train (near enough) had a Siemens fitter travelling onboard! . I think they're still around .. incase!

Possibly so I guess it depends how they want to manage the maintenance and achive the required reliability levels, In any I would imagine all companies will do it at least until they are approaching the required reliability levels.

With Crossrail of course the situation is complex with 3 bits of an eventual single route opening to 345's at different times and with different signalling systems, then of course you are going to have to get the units working with the platform doors etc on the new core section.

The 710 may be suffering from an overriding priority of both TFL and Bombardier to get Crossrail working especially if they are having more issues than expected.

 

[Mikey C]

What about installing DOO cameras on all the platforms for the 315s?

The 315s are the same length as the 710s though?