Future TransPennine/Northern Routes

[route101]

The Friends of the S & C line agree, not surprisingly. I saw a copy of their magazine/newsletter only yesterday which reported a passenger survey they had done. Apparently a fair proportion of the people who answered their questions were travelling through to Scotland. (I have just had a quick look on their website but I can't see the report.)

Whenever ive used the Setlle line , seen fair few connect at Carlisle.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would it be possible for the Northern Connect Blackpool North to York service to be joined with the new Norther service from York to Scarborough? This would give Scarborough 2tph to Leeds and could help to reduce overcrowding on TPE even more as well as giving Scarborough a Direct service to Preston for better connections to the WCML.

IIRC such a service has operated sporadically over the years. I seem to remember in the years leading up to privatisation (and possibly afterwards under Northern Spirit) that the Blackpool North trains ran through to Scarborough, though that could be an entirely false memory.

One downside of working that way is the lack of through platforms at York which have access to the Scarborough lines. If the York to Scarborough shuttle operates from the dedicated bay (currently barely used other than 68s on driver-training runs!) that solves that problem.

 

[PR1Berske]

IIRC such a service has operated sporadically over the years. I seem to remember in the years leading up to privatisation (and possibly afterwards under Northern Spirit) that the Blackpool North trains ran through to Scarborough, though that could be an entirely false memory.

One downside of working that way is the lack of through platforms at York which have access to the Scarborough lines. If the York to Scarborough shuttle operates from the dedicated bay (currently barely used other than 68s on driver-training runs!) that solves that problem.

There was certainly a service to Scarborough, it's the only way I can hear "Malton, Seamer, and Scarborough" in my head as a railway announcement.

 

[randyrippley]

Where's Morecambe - Leeds? Are you suggesting that is abandoned?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Where's Morecambe - Leeds? Are you suggesting that is abandoned?

No it is still running.

 

[randyrippley]

No it is still running.

exactly
so it needs to be on the map.......unless you're suggesting it should be abandoned

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

exactly
so it needs to be on the map.......unless you're suggesting it should be abandoned

No I am not suggesting that but this is Northern Connect not just Northern? In other words, fast inter-urban routes not slow service they will remain as Northern.

 

[GrimShady]

Glasgow - Leeds/York via S&C would be a most useful service I think.

Another service that's been missing for many, many years!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

One route that might be useful is a Northern Connect Glasgow Central to Leeds via Settle & Carlisle Possibly doing this:

• Glasgow Central-Motherwell-Lockerbie-Carlisle-Appleby-Settle-Hellifield-Skipton-Shipley-Leeds

Dropped ‘Connect’ from the title of this thread, so we can discuss future Northern and Northern Connect routes in general and TPE routes

 

[Iskra]

One route that might be useful is a Northern Connect Glasgow Central to Leeds via Settle & Carlisle Possibly doing this:

• Glasgow Central-Motherwell-Lockerbie-Carlisle-Appleby-Settle-Hellifield-Skipton-Shipley-Leeds

There used to be such a service, but it was withdrawn by the Strategic Rail Authority. It was run by Northern 158’s. Not sure the paths exist for 90mph DMU’s between Glasgow and Carlisle anymore since thr WCML upgrade.

Many on here would like to see such a service reinstated, extended to Nottingham though. It would also be sensible to call at Bingley, Keighley and Kirkby Stephen.

 

[VT 390]

One route that might be useful is a Northern Connect Glasgow Central to Leeds via Settle & Carlisle Possibly doing this:

• Glasgow Central-Motherwell-Lockerbie-Carlisle-Appleby-Settle-Hellifield-Skipton-Shipley-Leeds

I like this is a idea but would it be possible to divide the train at Skipton with one portion continuing to Leeds non stop and the other calling at Keighley, Shipley and Bradford Forster Square?

 

[Iskra]

I like this is a idea but would it be possible to divide the train at Skipton with one portion continuing to Leeds non stop and the other calling at Keighley, Shipley and Bradford Forster Square?

Why, when there is already a Skipton-Bradford FS service? That’s just unnecessarily complicating operations.

 

[VT 390]

There used to be such a service, but it was withdrawn by the Strategic Rail Authority. It was run by Northern 158’s. Not sure the paths exist for 90mph DMU’s between Glasgow and Carlisle anymore since thr WCML upgrade.

Many on here would like to see such a service reinstated, extended to Nottingham though. It would also be sensible to call at Bingley, Keighley and Kirkby Stephen.

Could the service be run as a bi-mode with a higher top speed this would not only solve the speed problem but would also stop more diesels running under the wires.

 

[Iskra]

Could the service be run as a bi-mode with a higher top speed this would not only solve the speed problem but would also stop more diesels running under the wires.

That would be one way of doing it.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Amended: Glasgow Central-Leeds: Motherwell, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Hellifield, Skipton, Keighley, Bingley, Shipley and Leeds

Other Routes for Northern:

TfN has recommended these (Modern Railways, December 2018, page 13)

• Liverpool-Manchester-Crewe extended to Alsager and Stoke-on-Trent
• Regular Ellesmere and Helsby
• Increased frequency of Blackpool North to Liverpool service
• Diversion of stopping Manchester to Sheffield services to run via Stockport and Hazel Grove with a replacement service between Manchester and Chinley
• Doubling frequency of Huddersfield to Sheffield and Manchester to Kirkby services
• Increase of services between Rotherham and Doncaster to 4tph (up from 3)
• Regular services between York and Sheffield via Dearne Valley
• Liverpool to Leicester service introduced as part of TPE (or EMT) running alongside a Manchester Airport to Derby service
• Extension of Carlisle and Newcastle to Redcar, Saltburn, James Cook/Nunthorpe, Yarm, Northallerton and Darlington

Any further Northern or TPE routes you would add?

 

[Aictos]

Amended: Glasgow Central-Leeds: Motherwell, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Hellifield, Skipton, Keighley, Bingley, Shipley and Leeds

Other Routes for Northern:

TfN has recommended these (Modern Railways, December 2018, page 13)

Any further Northern or TPE routes you would add?

As I don't think the paths exist between Carlisle and Glasgow Central for 90mph services, I would much rather Northern recast the Leeds to Nottingham/Leeds to Carlisle services and run them as Northern Connect services between Nottingham and Carlisle via Leeds as connections to Glasgow Central can be made at Leeds and Carlisle.

This also has the benefit of increasing capacity at Leeds as services will only be using a platform for a few minutes as a though service instead of terminating there which also offers improved journey opportunities for stations en route.

As to other routes, why not consider linking Doncaster to Leeds/Leeds Metro services as though services so you could get a direct EMU between Doncaster and Bradford/Skipton for example giving direct links to major locations in Yorkshire but also as these services wouldn't be terminating at Leeds, it means platform capacity will be increased.

I'm sure there are reasons for the above NOT to happen but I certainly don't want to see Leeds to Glasgow via Carlisle when there are already plenty of decent connections already at Carlisle with TPE and Virgin Trains operating.

 

[DanTrain]

One route that might be useful is a Northern Connect Glasgow Central to Leeds via Settle & Carlisle Possibly doing this:

• Glasgow Central-Motherwell-Lockerbie-Carlisle-Appleby-Settle-Hellifield-Skipton-Shipley-Leeds

Dropped ‘Connect’ from the title of this thread, so we can discuss future Northern and Northern Connect routes in general and TPE routes

My initial reaction to this was 'it takes ages' - and it does. But actually it can be done in 5 hours using present service (with 0 connection time at Carlisle), and cutting a few stops could probably get that to 4h 40, similar to the cheapest option offered by NRE. Whilst we're at it, why not stick a HST on it and extend to St Pancras

 

[Ken H]

My initial reaction to this was 'it takes ages' - and it does. But actually it can be done in 5 hours using present service (with 0 connection time at Carlisle), and cutting a few stops could probably get that to 4h 40, similar to the cheapest option offered by NRE. Whilst we're at it, why not stick a HST on it and extend to St Pancras

call it the Thames Clyde Express.

 

[DanTrain]

call it the Thames Clyde Express.

Class 45 operated of course

 

[Glenn1969]

2nd train per hour Bradford to Preston that after Preston then calls Lancaster, Carlisle, then either Carstairs, Haymarket and Edinburgh (2 hourly) or Lockerbie, Motherwell and Glasgow Central (also 2 hourly) ?

 

[DanTrain]

2nd train per hour Bradford to Preston that after Preston then calls Lancaster, Carlisle, then either Carstairs, Haymarket and Edinburgh (2 hourly) or Lockerbie, Motherwell and Glasgow Central (also 2 hourly) ?

What are you running that with? Surely it would be quicker to change onto a pendo at Preston than run a 158 up the WCML, unless you plan on nicking some 221s from somewhere?

 

[Glenn1969]

It would be a Northern service possibly with new stock

 

[VT 390]

2nd train per hour Bradford to Preston that after Preston then calls Lancaster, Carlisle, then either Carstairs, Haymarket and Edinburgh (2 hourly) or Lockerbie, Motherwell and Glasgow Central (also 2 hourly) ?

What are you running that with? Surely it would be quicker to change onto a pendo at Preston than run a 158 up the WCML, unless you plan on nicking some 221s from somewhere?

It would be a Northern service possibly with new stock

For the amount of passengers who would benefit from this (I would imagine not many) is it actually worth doing this as paths on the northern section of the WCML could be better used for other services which would carry more passengers.
I do think a second Leeds/Bradford service to Preston would be good though alongside the Northern Connect service and at least one of these services could be timetabled to connect well with either Virgin or TransPennine services at Preston.

 

[route101]

Think a TPE or Northern service Leeds to Glasgow would be a good one , certainly hopefully would attract passengers . Does not have to be freq 3 or 4 times a day.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Why not extend 1 service per hour from Knottingley to Hull via Goole?

I would also provide an hourly service from Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Gainsborough.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why not extend 1 service per hour from Knottingley to Hull via Goole?

I would also provide an hourly service from Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Gainsborough.

Knottingley to Goole currently only has the peak services to Leeds and back. Goole would probably provide passengers if there was a proper service, but the intermediate stops of Hensall, Snaith and Whitley Bridge have very little surrounding populations.

A better improvement in that neck of the woods would be extending the future Huddersfield to Castleford service to York.

 

[randyrippley]

reroute the Morecambe-Leeds service so it becomes hourly Preston-Lancaster-Leeds/Bradford using those soon-to-be-spare fast class 185 sets.
Or even start at Liverpool and take some of the pressure off the route via Manchester.

 

[Iskra]

reroute the Morecambe-Leeds service so it becomes hourly Preston-Lancaster-Leeds/Bradford using those soon-to-be-spare fast class 185 sets.
Or even start at Liverpool and take some of the pressure off the route via Manchester.

I think you might want to consult a map.

 

[randyrippley]

I think you might want to consult a map.

It may not be the most direct route, but at least users would avoid the Manchester bottlenecks. If you think starting at Liverpool is a step too far, then start at Wigan.

 

[PR1Berske]

It may not be the most direct route, but at least users would avoid the Manchester bottlenecks. If you think starting at Liverpool is a step too far, then start at Wigan.

You want to go Wigan--Preston--Lancaster--Leeds?