When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[ainsworth74]

Am I right in assuming that you have token machines in those cabinets, rather than in a proper Signalbox?. To me needs to be upgraded to etcs and controlled from the nearest roc. As for the track, sounds like some needs relaying and a better timetable and longer trains. Why isn't Whitby council raising so much funds and local people. Then as happened with the Portishead line near Bristol, the dft paid the rest.

Perhaps because Whitby council realise that they have better things to spend their money on...

 

[Starmill]

Perhaps because Whitby council realise that they have better things to spend their money on...

Whitby Town Council is so small that their accounts are hand-written. As you can see they generated receipts last year of around £300,000 from Rates and miscellaneous income. They could hardly afford to pay for a bench to be installed at the station.

Whitby is in the Scarborough Borough Council area, and it is fairly obvious that they have next to no interest in funding this line.

 

[markindurham]

I have to agree with the comments regarding Whitby vs Scarborough. Whitby folk regularly complain that they are treated as the poor relation by Scarborough Borough Council, so there is no way that SBC would seriously assist the Esk Valley line.

 

[ainsworth74]

Whitby Town Council is so small that their accounts are hand-written. As you can see they generated receipts last year of around £300,000 from Rates and miscellaneous income. They could hardly afford to pay for a bench to be installed at the station.

All money must be subsumed in the name of the Esk Valley Line!

Whitby is in the Scarborough Borough Council area, and it is fairly obvious that they have next to no interest in funding this line.

Slightly more seriously whilst Scarborough Borough Council no doubt has more resources one, I think, can safely assume that they have more important things to spend their money on.

 

[AndyHudds]

Wouldn't this come under the jurisdiction of North Yorkshire County Council, don't they hold sway over the council's within the North Yorkshire area?

 

[Glenn1969]

They don't fund bus services particularly well and consider services bringing tourists in from outside the area a very low priority (they have withdrawn DalesBus from the ENCTS scheme). So I doubt they would assist the Esk Valley Line

 

[Bald Rick]

I am afraid you are talking rubbish. Please read what I wrote.

What you wrote was:

European countries with TGV-type lines are all far bigger and less densely populated than [the]UK

I explained, patiently, that this was demonstrably not the case.

 

[Bald Rick]

To me needs to be upgraded to etcs and controlled from the nearest roc. As for the track, sounds like some needs relaying and a better timetable and longer trains.

ETCS would be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

There’s little wrong with the track. And everything wrong with the alignment. It’s called the Esk Valley Line for a reason.

 

[Greybeard33]

IMO the line should be closed east of Nunthorpe, except for any parts the NYMR might be willing to take over.

Having recently visited the area, I observed that Great Ayton has frequent bus services, which go to the centre of the village (the station is a mile away). The villages further along the line have perfectly adequate roads nowadays and could be provided with a subsidised minibus service for a tiny proportion of the subsidy needed to maintain the railway.

For end to end journeys between Middlesbrough and Whitby, the direct bus along the A171 is far quicker, and it might well be commercially viable to increase the frequency without the subsidised competition from the railway.

 

[HSTEd]

ETCS would be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

There’s little wrong with the track. And everything wrong with the alignment. It’s called the Esk Valley Line for a reason.

.... I have to ask

How many structures are there that would need to be rebuilt to clear the line for tilting trains?

 

[Bald Rick]

.... I have to ask

How many structures are there that would need to be rebuilt to clear the line for tilting trains?

No idea. Probably not many. But at the curvature on the line, tilt isn’t really effective. IIRC tilt on the pendolino only kicks in around 60-70mph.

 

[HSTEd]

No idea. Probably not many. But at the curvature on the line, tilt isn’t really effective. IIRC tilt on the pendolino only kicks in around 60-70mph.

The Japanese use tilt on trains with only a 70-80mph top speed.
The tilt only kicking in at about 60-70mph might simply be a reflection on their not really being anything on the WCML that needs tilt for speeds less than that.

 

[Starmill]

For end to end journeys between Middlesbrough and Whitby, the direct bus along the A171 is far quicker, and it might well be commercially viable to increase the frequency without the subsidised competition from the railway.

This is a serious point, and one that shouldn't be overlooked. Subsidised railways can and do distort the commercial bus market, leaving a greater transport need than if they were not there. A tightly specified bus market may in fact be the best of both worlds, with or without occasional trains which must be subject to the same regulation.

However, I would not personally put this line as number 1 in the country on that basis - I would say that train services to Whitby are more promising economically than those to Bleaneau Ffestiniog or Wick.

 

[yorksrob]

This is a serious point, and one that shouldn't be overlooked. Subsidised railways can and do distort the commercial bus market, leaving a greater transport need than if they were not there. A tightly specified bus market may in fact be the best of both worlds, with or without occasional trains which must be subject to the same regulation.

However, I would not personally put this line as number 1 in the country on that basis - I would say that train services to Whitby are more promising economically than those to Bleaneau Ffestiniog or Wick.

If a bus service has to rely on the local railway service being neglected to be 'commercially viable' (and by "neglected", I mean left in a situation with a wholly sub-standard service pattern which we wouldn't accept on other similar routes, and which itself was an historical accident borne of the trimming of services to make Regional Railways attractive for privatisation), then I would seriously question how 'commercially viable' that bus route actually is. I'm somewhat at a loss to see why I, as a railway user, should be expected to experience a below average train service just to prop up some marginal bus company.

I myself have used the public bus along the tops, and while nowhere near as unsuitable as the nauseating Bodmin Road - Padstow run for example, it was still longer than I'm comfortable with for a bus journey.

The other thing the bus is useless at in this context is in serving the intermediate stops. I was once on a full minibus which had been hired in to take passengers who'd missed their connection off the TPE (yes, the line does get plenty of passengers from the South) and one of them needed one of the intermediate stations. The route of the main road and down into the valley was hair-raising to say the least with lots of sharp drops and bends, and added on at least twenty minutes to the journey. Should these settlements have to put up with a sub-average train service just to prop up a 'commercially viable' bus that would be no use to them ?

 

[Meerkat]

Should these settlements have to put up with a sub-average train service just to prop up a 'commercially viable' bus that would be no use to them ?

In most of the country those size settlements wouldn’t have any public transport

 

[Starmill]

If a bus service has to rely on the local railway service being neglected to be 'commercially viable'

I was hypothesising on it being withdrawn not neglected. Quite different.

This thread is entirely 'When will something be done about the Whitby branch?'. Replacing it with a much more frequent, fast and comfortable bus service would be doing something.

 

[yorksrob]

In most of the country those size settlements wouldn’t have any public transport

Just because the rest of the country's badly run, doesn't mean we should accept a deterioration of service in the Esk valley.

I was hypothesising on it being withdrawn not neglected. Quite different.

This thread is entirely 'When will something be done about the Whitby branch?'. Replacing it with a much more frequent, fast and comfortable bus service would be doing something.

Then that makes your argument even more preposterous than I had thought.

 

[Starmill]

Then that makes your argument even more preposterous than I had thought.

You created this thread to ask what to do about the route.

That’s a legitimate suggestion. There are arguments in favour and against, much as there are with rebuilding Battersby or more passing loops.

If you didn't want some legitimate suggestions, you maybe should have considered that before creating an all-encompassing thread about the route.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I think to be honest they should have canned the Esk Valley route and kept the route from Saltburn to Scarborough, but we have got what we have got. An infrequent service running to a small town at the end of a sparsely populated area, on a line that the maintenance up keep per year must be very close to the actual fare receipts if not higher, and that is before the subject of unit and staff costs etc..

I did some work on the Esk Valley line a few years back, cant quite remember the location, but because of the access difficulties a relatively simple bit of work probably cost in excess of £100,000 and that is before any remedial works were done, that was just a ground investigation.

I think a lot of people dont care to admit the standard to which the lines were built and are now suffering quite a bit just through the normal usage and costs per year are only likely to go up and that is excluding any major infrastructure work.

You ask the question "When will something be done about the Whitby line?", you could counter the question with "A what point does TOO much need to be done about the Whitby line".

Dont get me wrong, i love travelling along the line, but the only time I considered getting the train to Whitby was when I lived in Thornaby. I live in Leeds now and would never think about getting the train to Whitby.

 

[yorksrob]

You created this thread to ask what to do about the route.

That’s a legitimate suggestion. There are arguments in favour and against, much as there are with rebuilding Battersby or more passing loops.

If you didn't want some legitimate suggestions, you maybe should have considered that before creating an all-encompassing thread about the route.

If it's legitimate to suggest it, it's also legitimate to decry it.

Afterall, 'commercially viable' bus routes only exist as part of a Thatcherite fantasy world in which private companies have to be free to cherry-pick the most lucrative bus routes while ignoring the rest, in order for the system to function.

As for getting a bus/coach from Inverness to Wick, having seen the route on a map, the idea seems unappealing.

 

[yorksrob]

I think to be honest they should have canned the Esk Valley route and kept the route from Saltburn to Scarborough, but we have got what we have got. An infrequent service running to a small town at the end of a sparsely populated area, on a line that the maintenance up keep per year must be very close to the actual fare receipts if not higher, and that is before the subject of unit and staff costs etc..

I did some work on the Esk Valley line a few years back, cant quite remember the location, but because of the access difficulties a relatively simple bit of work probably cost in excess of £100,000 and that is before any remedial works were done, that was just a ground investigation.

I think a lot of people dont care to admit the standard to which the lines were built and are now suffering quite a bit just through the normal usage and costs per year are only likely to go up and that is excluding any major infrastructure work.

You ask the question "When will something be done about the Whitby line?", you could counter the question with "A what point does TOO much need to be done about the Whitby line".

Dont get me wrong, i love travelling along the line, but the only time I considered getting the train to Whitby was when I lived in Thornaby. I live in Leeds now and would never think about getting the train to Whitby.

I've never seen anything to suggest that the Whitby route is more susceptible to excessive maintenance costs or, for example, climate related disruption than anywhere else on the network. If you're saying that 'too much' needs to be done to this line, then you will effectively be opening the network up to a much larger reshaping. Is that really a question you want to ask ?

Admittedly the location of your work was difficult to get to, but are there not inaccessable areas all over the network, and isn't the Esk valley's comparative inaccessability one of the main reasons for the route's continued existance ?

I use the line regularly from further afield than Leeds BTW.

 

[03_179]

If it had a better service and capacity then I'd be able to travel from home (London) to Whitby and back in a day. Now it's either an overnight or go by car.

Trust me 6 hours there and six hour back is a long old trip.

 

[Starmill]

If it's legitimate to suggest it, it's also legitimate to decry it.

So what sort of realistic case for investment is there in the Esk Valley line, beyond the enhancements that have already been delivered, committed, and the ones I've hinted at? The case to close it completely is economically strong and obvious. It's not under consideration for purely political reasons. I would say that as a result the line is already getting its best possible deal I.e. There is no threat of closure.

 

[R G NOW.]

So what sort of realistic case for investment is there in the Esk Valley line, beyond the enhancements that have already been delivered, committed, and the ones I've hinted at? The case to close it completely is economically strong and obvious. It's not under consideration for purely political reasons. I would say that as a result the line is already getting its best possible deal I.e. There is no threat of closure.

I heard somewhere that it costs a lot of money to close a line, odd that after what Dr Beeching did. So I suspect they will keep it open as it probably covers it's running costs and provides a service. Network Rail I suppose could improve it though, as I previously said with some better signalling and a bit of track relaying, even if it was used track from a main line somewhere. I think your TOC needs to give you better trains and longer ones. If everyone then uses it, it will surely get upgraded sometime.

I think you need a rail users action group setup sort of thing to lobby councils and network rail, a bit like they did for the Portishead line.

 

[ainsworth74]

If everyone then uses it, it will surely get upgraded sometime.

The car is better and more convenient for most and there are good bus links between the main settlements. It is not unused but it will never see enough usage to warrant significant expenditure.

I think you need a rail users action group setup sort of thing to lobby councils and network rail, a bit like they did for the Portishead line.

There already is one and they've been active for donkeys years.

http://www.eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/index.html

 

[Meerkat]

Just read the article in Modern Railways. Sounds like they are already spending too much on the line - a MOM on one service everyday!
Mentions opening a Roseberry Parkway - surely this has to replace the current Great Ayrton?! Last thing the Whitby people need is yet another stop!

 

[AndyHudds]

The car is better and more convenient for most and there are good bus links between the main settlements. It is not unused but it will never see enough usage to warrant significant expenditure.

There already is one and they've been active for donkeys years.

http://www.eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/index.html

Does it have good bus links? Bus links to where? The bus to Scarborough is only every 30 minutes. Coastliner only every 2 hours from West Yorkshire.

 

[yorksrob]

So what sort of realistic case for investment is there in the Esk Valley line, beyond the enhancements that have already been delivered, committed, and the ones I've hinted at? The case to close it completely is economically strong and obvious. It's not under consideration for purely political reasons. I would say that as a result the line is already getting its best possible deal I.e. There is no threat of closure.

I would dispute the suggestion that the case for closure is strong or obvious, in any sense but that, like most of the rest of the network, the line probably doesn't cover its whole operating cost.

• Whitby is already overcongested and needs more public transport provision, not less.
• Even with a lousy timetable and long journey times, the line holds its own against the bus.
• There's no guarentee that current train passengers will transfer to bus, rather than going by car or abandoning Whitby altogether.
• The bus doesn't even serve the Esk valley due to topography.

In answer to your question, the compelling case for improving the route is:

• It's remarkably popular, even with the current woeful service. With a decent one it will be even more popular.
• All resorts do better with outside visitors with a railway.
• One only has to look at the difference that a passing loop has made to the Falmouth line.

 

[yorksrob]

Just read the article in Modern Railways. Sounds like they are already spending too much on the line - a MOM on one service everyday!
Mentions opening a Roseberry Parkway - surely this has to replace the current Great Ayrton?! Last thing the Whitby people need is yet another stop!

An additional member of staff doesn't particularly do much to increase capacity on the line.

I would suggest they took a buffet trolley with them, but it wouldn't get down the aisle half the times I've been on the route.

 

[Harpers Tate]

.....The bus to Scarborough is only every 30 minutes......

Some places would kill for a 30 minute bus frequency.......