Journeyman
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 6,295
7% fare rise - imagine the squealing now!!
That's nothing. There was a 25% increase one year in the seventies.
7% fare rise - imagine the squealing now!!
7% fare rise - imagine the squealing now!!
Joined up means 1 network, you can travel from Cockfosters to Croydon by Bus, using several different operators but it is one network, 1 travelcard and controlled by TFL. No 2 operators are in competition to each other, they work together to provide the service. Try doing that on the National rail Network, you have to check to see which services and operators that your ticket is valid on.I remember the choice of food being terrible, and the subject of much mirth from comedians!
“joined up network” - this keeps being mentioned without explaining what the benefits of this are.
Air travel is very much not a joined up network yet seems to be very popular and I don’t hear anyone suggesting we nationalise it.
And of course now, or pre covid anyway - for much of the time there is no food to choose from at all. So not a choice, just nowt.I remember the choice of food being terrible, and the subject of much mirth from comedians!
“joined up network” - this keeps being mentioned without explaining what the benefits of this are.
Air travel is very much not a joined up network yet seems to be very popular and I don’t hear anyone suggesting we nationalise it.
Some recollections about working for BR in the 80s, not regarding the travelling public experience:
1. Having to take a week off work when they repainted Stooperdale Offices with the cheapest emulsion paint available and I couldn't stop sneezing
2. Bomb damage still noticeable in Kings Cross Western Offices, part of the roof was missing
3. John Peyton House, Nottingham using a portacabin in a derelict building as an off site tape store. Somebody broke in and tried flogging the tape cassetes as VHS areound Meadows pubs
4. The number of train spotters working in Rail House, Crewe
5. The management canteen in Western Tower, Reading with waiter service
6. Screwing Cap Gemini Sogeti on the ICL->IBM conversion project for the Payroll System
7. A friend of mine losing one of the CAPRI system's main files during an overnight callout, I think CAPRI was a ticketing system
8. BR Pension Fund's Fine Art Collection
I don't really get all the comments on how BR was better at being a "joined up network", because it was never run as one - local management always existed in some shape or form, and working practices varied considerably for much of BR's existence, whether that was at regional or sector level.
For many years, loads of services took strange routes and terminated in seemingly random places because it had been decided many moons before that crossing regional boundaries Would Be Bad. In many cases, those boundaries had Victorian origins.
I certainly think there's something to be said for a consistent product in terms of sectors.
For example, it's good to know roughly what to expect in terms of comfort, buffet facilities, first class offering, pricing structure, special offers if you're getting an InterCity service to Plymouth, Birmingham or Edinburgh for example.
Would it have got in there from the various private companies collections before nationalisation (don’t know whether transfers in kind from employers have ever been allowed??)Ref the art: wasn't the fine art collection bought as art values were rising at the time faster than other forms of asset available to the fund to buy? I doubt Pension fund managers were that bothered about looking at it!
Pension funds invest in all sorts of things that they think might protect the value of the pension investments and which can be sold at the appropriate time to generate a higher sum in due course. The more diversification the better I suspect.
DfT could easily have done that in franchise specs if they thought it was important.I certainly think there's something to be said for a consistent product in terms of sectors.
For example, it's good to know roughly what to expect in terms of comfort, buffet facilities, first class offering, pricing structure, special offers if you're getting an InterCity service to Plymouth, Birmingham or Edinburgh for example.
From what I've seen in the forum a few things stand out about how BR was positively viewed - they seem relatively superficial things but I can understand the nostalgia.
- Stock flexibility and the ability to have x, y or z unit or carriage unexpectedly turn up on your service
- Comfiness of seats in old stock
- Alignment of seats to windows
- Locos + carriages in favour of units
- Parcel vans and space for bikes
- Relief services
My memories of BR (outside of NSE which was an entirely different set of experiences) involved waiting on cold platforms waiting for a dirty multiple unit to show up which may or may not have working heating..if it showed up at all. Occasionally there'd be a shiny HST to get somewhere quickly but the period where I'd really appreciate ageing stock and locos was a relatively short one in my early to mid teens.
Why do so many people take exception to this? Honestly, why is it a problem?
Things like comfortable seats, windows you can see out of, luggage/bike space, and so on, are nothing to do with nostalgia ... they're basic functionality - maybe they relate to whether an organisation is run as a public service or for profit maximisation.
To be pedantic they are not basic functionalities of a system whose basic functionality is transporting you from A-Z. I don’t see any reason a nationalised system is any more likely to have them - possibly less likely as the Treasury see one big budget and cut it.Things like comfortable seats, windows you can see out of, luggage/bike space, and so on, are nothing to do with nostalgia ... they're basic functionality - maybe they relate to whether an organisation is run as a public service or for profit maximisation.
Because it's literally and linguistically false, and because it displays a profit motive rather than a public service motive.
maybe they relate to whether an organisation is run as a public service or for profit maximisation.
Although I am too young to remember BR, what I do like is the idea of a national rail operator with an in-house engineering department that designs, builds and repairs its own rolling stock, keeping things consistent and joined-up. I'm not saying there's no place for private companies on our railways and I know that the DfT still specifies a great deal but I think that's part of the problem - the people specifying the trains aren't the people using or operating the trains. Therefore we end up with the horrific seats on IETs because the DfT went for the cheap option.
No European railway, nationalised or not, designs and builds its own rolling stock in-house any more.
This part of the industry has been globalised for decades, and is now in the hands of the private sector majors (Siemens, Alstom, Hitachi, CRRC).
It's the same with signalling, with much the same players.
BR could never have kept up with global technology development in all the disciplines that were part of the steam era - APT was the last attempt.
BR also ended up with a non-standard network which, despite much progress, continues to plague today's railway.
HS1 and HS2 are straight out of the French high speed technology playbook - they left us behind.
APT was the last attempt.
True, its a thing of the pastNostalgia ain't what it used to be...
One could question the wisdom of this though. The loss of the British train building industry benefits no one-particulary the residents of York and Birmingham. It's insance the amount of money that has been sent to Siemens to build UK rolling stock when the investment and wealth creation could have stayed in places that have been crying out for it for decades.
Would it have got in there from the various private companies collections before nationalisation (don’t know whether transfers in kind from employers have ever been allowed??)
Slightly different I know but post-demutualisation one life company’s with profits fund included the antique furniture and art in The head office (and some fishing rights!)
I think theres a number of reasons. I was born at the start of privatisation, but gained a rose-tinted view of BR from my father. I think that whilst BR had its poor points, it was a more "interesting" railway; locomotives, coaches, "older" trains that seemed to have more charm than their 90s/00s replacements. Yes, BR may have been awful in many ways, but I think watching trains at Birmingham New Street was more interesting in 1970/80 and 90 than 2020.
Secondly, British people do have a rose-tinted view of the 1945-1979 state capitalism economic model. I think it goes back to the comfort of the big state during the Second World War and the reassurance the state was there to provide in the economic mess after the war. I think that explains part of the hatred towards Thatcher, as she dismantled that system (although you could argue it actually collapsed during Ted Heath's government).
My experience of BR.
The good:
Integrated national service one ticket covers most route under one company branding.
wasn't the whole unified compensation scheme (to which todays delay repay has evolved from) introduced in its modern form by BR as part of John Major's Citizen's Charter initiative?My experience of BR.
The good:
Integrated national service one ticket covers most route under one company branding.
It got better toward the end with sectorisation and a more customer focussed attitude then privatisation happened, a missed opportunity.
The bad.
Take it or leave it attitude knowing they won't be sacked as they'll strike at the drop of a hat paralysing an entire network.
(At least with privatisation other train companies will fill the gap)
Good luck getting compensation or refund for a bad service or missed train or even no train ! The entire process is deliberately obscured designed to wear you down so you'll give up in the end.(bad move as they'll just buy a car instead vowing never to return to BR)
I think theres a number of reasons. I was born at the start of privatisation, but gained a rose-tinted view of BR from my father. I think that whilst BR had its poor points, it was a more "interesting" railway; locomotives, coaches, "older" trains that seemed to have more charm than their 90s/00s replacements. Yes, BR may have been awful in many ways, but I think watching trains at Birmingham New Street was more interesting in 1970/80 and 90 than 2020.
Secondly, British people do have a rose-tinted view of the 1945-1979 state capitalism economic model. I think it goes back to the comfort of the big state during the Second World War and the reassurance the state was there to provide in the economic mess after the war. I think that explains part of the hatred towards Thatcher, as she dismantled that system (although you could argue it actually collapsed during Ted Heath's government).