Scotrail train travelling with doors open on Borders Railway 27/9/20

[bluenoxid]

I thought that the rulebook says that passengers should take a video of it and tweet it on their social media, making sure to mention every mainstream and obscure media channel. They might mention @virgintrains because they have something to do with trains.

In all seriousness, if I am on a train and I am on my own without someone I can trust, I’m going to supervise the immediate risk/danger rather than leave it, making the judgement call that my presence can reduce the risk and I can hopefully persuade someone else to do the other important piece of walking down the train.

 

[Dieseldriver]

In response to people belittling the danger. Apart from the fact that in the modern day, a train door being wide open presents a clear risk of someone falling out, there are a couple of other issues.
One being that depending on the type of traction, an open door could mean the train is now out of gauge which is a serious risk. Another issue in my mind is, if you as a passenger are aware of one door that is open, who's to say that it's the only unsecured door? There could be others (or even all others) that are open/at danger of being opened presenting a clear safety risk.
The other issue in my mind is, for an incident of this kind to occur, it is a 'wrong side' dangerous fault with the trains equipment. There are a number of reasons why this fault could occur (could have even been caused by the EBS being raised due to a fault) but speaking as a Train Driver, if I was aware of a fault such as this on my train, it would make me question the integrity of other safety related systems and what risk they may pose.
To the posters who are using the same old tired comparisons to how other countries don't seem to be bothered by such things, have a look at their general safety attitudes and fatality/injury rates.
There's a reason why Stonehaven with its death toll of 3 is considered a major, worrying tragedy in this country, there are many countries who would accept it and move on, I personally think myself lucky that we have a more enlightened attitude towards keeping the people under our care safe.

 

[Lloyds siding]

Extraordinary - I would report it immediately so that the appropriate action could be taken as soon as possible.


On that basis, if a fire starts in a room, wait for a convenient moment to report it as long as everyone knows it's there and it appears not to be spreading.

This is getting ridiculous.
Actually, yes! If I can tackle the fire myself, and am confident that I can, then yes, I wouldn't evacuate the building.
In the days of coal fires it was not uncommon for hot coals to tumble out of the fire, and onto the hearth, or even the carpet...you just dealt with it.
Sensible adults do not need a rulebook to take sensible precautions to minimise dangers, reporting a problem as soon as practicable is one of those precautions. Pulling an emergency alarm in the middle of nowhere just because a door is open is not sensible.

 

[peters]

I despair that people will let a train travel several miles with the doors open before they decide it's a good idea to pull the emergency alarm, but when they miss their stop will yank it immediately.

Well I'm pleased no-one attempted to pull the emergency cord above the open door!

To be honest I've never seen anyone pull a chord on a train, even when a door fails to open or someone wrongly presumes the group of people standing at the door are alighting, when they aren't. It does usually result in a lot of swearing though.

Important question where all the doors closed before the train departed? If not isn't the guard guilty of neglect, especially if they also didn't bother to walk through the train between station stops.

 

[haggishunter]

Important question where all the doors closed before the train departed? If not isn't the guard guilty of neglect, especially if they also didn't bother to walk through the train between station stops.

If it was a 6 coach 170 or 158+170 then it’s impossible for the guard to walk through and it may not have been possible for a passenger to find the guard depending on the portion.

ps Not sure if double 170s can or do work the line in question ?

 

[Robertj21a]

Really?!!!

If you had gone through any, even a basic intro, level of rules training, you would understand why that statement is very very wrong in terms of an appropriate.

I'm a passenger, it's for the railway to sort out their rules etc etc

 

[peters]

If it was a 6 coach 170 or 158+170 then it’s impossible for the guard to walk through and it may not have been possible for a passenger to find the guard depending on the portion.

ps Not sure if double 170s can or do work the line in question ?

The Newsquest group article in the original link says their report is based on what another paper have said. The other paper said the train was a 3 coach class 170 train.

 

[CC 72100]

I'm a passenger, it's for the railway to sort out their rules etc etc

Yes, which is why I question your initial judgement of:

" I'm not sure I'd bother reporting it until the next station, as long as those on board were adults and aware of the situation."

 

[Meerkat]

On that basis, if a fire starts in a room, wait for a convenient moment to report it as long as everyone knows it's there and it appears not to be spreading.

With respect that is a really ridiculous comparison.
If I am sat near enough to the door to know it’s open I am near enough to shout a warning to anyone going near who hasn’t immediately worked it out from all the noise and wind. It’s not like many people are going to be walking up and down a 170 (or any train without a buffet)

 

[peters]

On that basis, if a fire starts in a room, wait for a convenient moment to report it as long as everyone knows it's there and it appears not to be spreading.

To be fair the one time I'm aware of a train fire, it was discovered 2 minutes from the next station and the guard (being aware of it) allowed the train to continue to the next station and then got both the train and the platform it had stopped at evacuated. That meant it was easy to safely evacuate everyone and that the emergency services could easily find the train (being at the station, not somewhere between x and y) and park their vehicles very close to the train.

 

[aleggatta]

This sounds very similar to a defect that was discovered on Electrostars whilst I was working on them. It was discovered that it might be possible, if a pair of micro switches were inadvertently wired the wrong way round, you could get interlock with a door open. As a new part of the door examination we had to lock all the doors out of use and confirm that interlock was lost when opening the cab doors. Whilst I don’t think we ever had an occurrence of it in real life, there were certainly single digit door failures of this kind, however most were still ‘safe’ as it generally only affected one of the two interlock circuits.

 

[DorkingMain]

I really am in despair reading this thread. Door hanging open and people here seem to think it's fine minus there being a bit of a draft. Good heavens.

 

[Lloyds siding]

How do you determine that? Because that can change over time (ie. you walk past it on steady footing, take the view that you are not at risk of falling out, then 2 minutes later the group of lads who are on can number 7 come charging past, already unsteady, as the train goes over a set of points - for them the risk is higher).

If drunken yobs heave into view then I would modify my risk assessment. OK?

I really am in despair reading this thread. Door hanging open and people here seem to think it's fine minus there being a bit of a draft. Good heavens.

With respect...only those saying look at other countries with open doors and windows may be consdered to say 'it's fine', everyone else has said it needs reporting as soon as practicable. But to suggest that stopping a train in the middle of nowhere, and presumably evacuating is a 'safer' response is ridiculous.

 

[Robertj21a]

I really am in despair reading this thread. Door hanging open and people here seem to think it's fine minus there being a bit of a draft. Good heavens.

It probably splits down into those who have travelled extensively abroad - and those whose only experience is the UK, with all its rules, H&S etc.
Still not sure why it's a really big deal if there's only adults on board, and aware of the situation (assuming the next station isn't 100 miles away!!).

 

[DorkingMain]

If drunken yobs heave into view then I would modify my risk assessment. OK?


With respect...only those saying look at other countries with open doors and windows may be consdered to say 'it's fine', everyone else has said it needs reporting as soon as practicable. But to suggest that stopping a train in the middle of nowhere, and presumably evacuating is a 'safer' response is ridiculous.

Why would you need to evacuate if you could secure the door and detrain at the next station? Is what you're suggesting here "I don't fancy getting off a defective train so I'd rather stay on one with a huge safety risk"

 

[yorkie]

Passengers can't be blamed for anything in my opinion

Since when have passengers had training in the railway rule book.

Quite.

I've been on trains (powered by English Electric locos) on main line railways travelling at speeds comparable with the speeds on this line, with open doors, and even had staff invite us to have the doors open (this invitation occured just last year).

Yes a UK rail enthusiast would understand that the emergency alarm should be used in this country if the train door is open but it's not really fair to criticise passengers for something that isn't within their control and isn't their responsibility and for which they have not had training and may not have the relevant knowledge

I

I really am in despair reading this thread. Door hanging open and people here seem to think it's fine minus there being a bit of a draft. Good heavens.

It is, in some European countries not that far from here!

 

[DorkingMain]

It probably splits down into those who have travelled extensively abroad - and those whose only experience is the UK, with all its rules, H&S etc.
Still not sure why it's a really big deal if there's only adults on board, and aware of the situation (assuming the next station isn't 100 miles away!!).

Trains are not gauged to run with the doors hanging open, serious risk of it hitting something line side.

What if someone walks through from the next carriage and doesn't realise?

I really think the railway could do more to educate people about safety situations. Things like holding doors open, trying to open the doors on a train that's already dispatched and about to move, not knowing how to handle serious safety issues like this. All of them have the potential to end in seriously bad outcomes and then everyone will sit around saying "Why didn't we make that more clear to people?"

 

[jfowkes]

If drunken yobs heave into view then I would modify my risk assessment. OK?

Bit late to be reassessing risk on the fly at that point. What if you pull the passcom but one of the drunk people falls out the door ten seconds later while the train is still doing 50mph?

 

[Robertj21a]

Trains are not gauged to run with the doors hanging open, serious risk of it hitting something line side.

What if someone walks through from the next carriage and doesn't realise?

I really think the railway could do more to educate people about safety situations. Things like holding doors open, trying to open the doors on a train that's already dispatched and about to move, not knowing how to handle serious safety issues like this. All of them have the potential to end in seriously bad outcomes and then everyone will sit around saying "Why didn't we make that more clear to people?"

I doubt that passengers will ever be too interested in how trains are gauged......

 

[eoff]

We used to have railway safety films on TV but mainly aimed at dissuading people from going near tracks.

And more generally the public information films 'Coughs and Sneezes' for example.

 

[Fokx]

I don't know what a PAU is but assuming it is some kind of alarm that replaced the very obvious and available communication chord that would be at the doors, next to the danger in question. I know that there are announcements advising passengers to read the emergency notices but unfortunately I don't do so because the first train I ever did this on had a notice that did not match the carriage layout so it seemed pointless to me.

Yes it’s the red handle that is located next to door areas that if the driver doesn’t deactivate in a certain amount of time, the brakes apply and train comes to an emergency stop. A driver can cancel this action out and use the terminal to speak directly to the passenger to find out what the emergency situation is.

PAU - Passenger Alarm Unit (red handle/button)
CFA - Call for aid (red button usually in toilets/disabled areas)
IEED - Internal Emergency Egress Device (green handle near doors that automatically applies the brakes and allows the passenger to open the doors manually in an emergency)

 

[Dieseldriver]

I doubt that passengers will ever be too interested in how trains are gauged......

Which is why if they observe a potentially dangerous occurance, they would be expected to do the sensible thing and alert a member of train crew to allow them to use their professional knowledge to take the appropriate actions. Same reason that if I saw a potentially dangerous situation on board a ship, I'd immediately alert a member of the crew for them to deal with it.

 

[theironroad]

Yes it’s the red handle that is located next to door areas that if the driver doesn’t deactivate in a certain amount of time, the brakes apply and train comes to an emergency stop. A driver can cancel this action out and use the terminal to speak directly to the passenger to find out what the emergency situation is.

PAU - Passenger Alarm Unit (red handle/button)
CFA - Call for aid (red button usually in toilets/disabled areas)
IEED - Internal Ememergency Egress Device (green handle near doors that automatically applies the brakes and allows the passenger to open the doors manually in an emergency)

Maybe it's new, but I've never heard of the IEED acronym. Always just known it as a door egress.

 

[Fokx]

Maybe it's new, but I've never heard of the IEED acronym. Always just known it as a door egress.

It may be traction specific but that’s the official name on the Siemens Desiro units of the mid-00’s

 

[theironroad]

I thought that the rulebook says that passengers should take a video of it and tweet it on their social media, making sure to mention every mainstream and obscure media channel. They might mention @virgintrains because they have something to do with trains.

Lol, love it.

Probably followed by a reply from the TOC saying either a) if you want to complain fill in this form or b) we've passed this on to the door's manager.

It may be traction specific but that’s the official name on the Siemens Desiro units of the mid-00’s

Even more news to me having signed 444/450 since new.....

 

[Malcmal]

Eschede train disaster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just a reminder of one time that a passenger (and conductor) failed to operated the emergency brake resulting in the deaths of 101 people. Of course this is the extreme end of the scale.

 

[Darandio]

Just a reminder of one time that a passenger failed to operated the emergency brake resulting in the deaths of 101 people. Of course this is the extreme end of the scale.

Your wording there is very much putting the blame at the door of the passenger, that wasn't the case at all.

 

[Fokx]

Even more news to me having signed 444/450 since new.....

It’s definitely the name of the ones on our class 185’s and I believe it was on our 350/4’s (although I’ve never signed those)

 

[Malcmal]

Your wording there is very much putting the blame at the door of the passenger, that wasn't the case at all.

The root cause of the disaster was of course mechanical failure but I just wanted to point out that reluctance by a passenger to act can be the difference between life and death. The wording I wrote is technically correct is it not? I do see that I changed the wording before you finished your reply to add that the conductor also failed to act as well.

 

[Darandio]

The root cause of the disaster was of course mechanical failure but I just wanted to point out that reluctance by a passenger to act can be the difference between life and death. The wording I wrote is technically correct is it not? I do see that I changed the wording before you finished your reply to add that the conductor also failed to act as well.

The passenger did act immediately by informing the conductor. The conductor then didn't act, citing company policy regarding the operation of the emergency brake.