Scotrail train travelling with doors open on Borders Railway 27/9/20

[norbitonflyer]

if I am on a train and I am on my own without someone I can trust, I’m going to supervise the immediate risk/danger rather than leave it, making the judgement call that my presence can reduce the risk and I can hopefully persuade someone else to do the other important piece of walking down the train.

You may have to decide between guarding the door to protect fellow passengers, and alerting the crew, especially if the nearest emergency alarm is dangerously close to the open door. A similar conundrum to that of the First Aider alone with a non-breathing patient. Should you try resuscitation first, or look for a phone to call an ambulance?

W

To be honest I've never seen anyone pull a chord on a train,

I've done it myself, twice.
The first was on the Tube, when the doors failed to open in my carriage at two consecutive stops and, at the second stop, people were exiting the carriage via the emergency end door when the train started again - obvious danger of someone falling through the gap between the cars.
The second was someone collapsing in an epileptic fit as my train left Waterloo. Concerned that someone would pull the chain between there and Vauxhall, (I've seen it happen - stranded on the viaduct, it took ages to get an ambulance crew to them) I pulled the cord and stopped the train before it was clear of the platform. Yes, we blocked the exit to several platforms for several minutes, but a paramedic was able to get his motorbike right alongside the train (and the London Ambulance HQ is about 200 yards from Waterloo station)

 

[broadgage]

Had I been on the train with the open doors, I would only have pulled the alarm immediately if there was also some additional risk factor such as children, drunks, wheelchair or baby buggy near the open door.
Otherwise I would delay use of the alarm until the next stop.

Operation of the alarm between stations might result in a multi-hour stranding and is therefore a very last resort. At least at a station one should be able to continue ones journey by taxi or bus or on foot.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Had I been on the train with the open doors, I would only have pulled the alarm immediately if there was also some additional risk factor such as children, drunks, wheelchair or baby buggy near the open door.
Otherwise I would delay use of the alarm until the next stop.

Operation of the alarm between stations might result in a multi-hour stranding and is therefore a very last resort. At least at a station one should be able to continue ones journey by taxi or bus or on foot.

Slightly tangential but am I the only one who is unsure about the immediate availability of taxis, buses and easy walks to Edinburgh at Shawfair fairly early on a Sunday morning?

To address the original point, I have 'pulled the cord' for door emergencies in the past and never been criticised for it. With modern stock my thought would be along the lines of 'if one door is open but the train is clearly able to draw power the whole interlock circuit is compromised and all the others might come open at any moment including at locations where there are people in other vehicles leaning against them, buggies with babies parked in vestibules, etc.'.

 

[philthetube]

The train is probably virtually empty, there is no-one anywhere near the door, I need to get home to pick up my child - would I risk a possible two hour delay while people tried to sort out what to do with a faulty door or would I leave it till I got to my station before telling someone.

It was not so long ago that we had no rear door on buses and while people occasionally fell out of them the vast majority of people didnt.

As a railman I would pull the alarm, but only because I would have questions to answer if I didn't.

Thinking as an ordinary passenger with child to collect I wouldn't unless I perceived danger. a Nearly empty train would not appear dangerous to me so I would just keep an eye out.

Be it right or wrong I think that is what the majority of members of the public would do.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Slightly tangential but am I the only one who is unsure about the immediate availability of taxis, buses and easy walks to Edinburgh at Shawfair fairly early on a Sunday morning?

More likely to be available there than somewhere-between-Eskbank-and-Shawfair

 

[broadgage]

Slightly tangential but am I the only one who is unsure about the immediate availability of taxis, buses and easy walks to Edinburgh at Shawfair fairly early on a Sunday morning?

To address the original point, I have 'pulled the cord' for door emergencies in the past and never been criticised for it. With modern stock my thought would be along the lines of 'if one door is open but the train is clearly able to draw power the whole interlock circuit is compromised and all the others might come open at any moment including at locations where there are people in other vehicles leaning against them, buggies with babies parked in vestibules, etc.'.

I would share your doubts about the availability of taxis or buses at some locations. Still better at a station than stranded between stations.

 

[DorkingMain]

The train is probably virtually empty, there is no-one anywhere near the door, I need to get home to pick up my child - would I risk a possible two hour delay while people tried to sort out what to do with a faulty door or would I leave it till I got to my station before telling someone.

It was not so long ago that we had no rear door on buses and while people occasionally fell out of them the vast majority of people didnt.

Several people a year died as a result of falling out of the back when they worked in regular service. And that was on roads, which are a much lower-risk and less controlled environment than the railway.

 

[AngusH]

I don't think that there are ever any bus services at all at Shawfair and probably no taxis.


The station is kind of still awaiting development to an extent, you'd probably have to walk at least half a mile.

 

[Devonian]

As a passenger who has never worked for the railways, I would pull the nearest cord, because I am not qualified to be able to judge whether it is safe to leave the door open: even if there is no-one near the door or in immediate danger from it at that moment in time, I could not guarantee that a foolish adult or curious child might not find the door in the time it took me to find a member of staff, let alone reach the next station. I would be devastated if a death or injury occurred because I did not act for fear of delaying the train or making it difficult to find taxis.

Are people stupid enough to go near open doors? Yes: I've seen a total idiot hanging out of one on the track side. And I've also met someone with bits of his hand missing from trying to close a door in motion: he didn't want to delay his train.

The safety notices I have read countless times while waiting by the doors have made it clear that an open door is a valid reason for a passenger to use the alarm (in fact, it's the only specific reason I can think of seeing on any of those notices). I would far rather face the wrath of passengers who had to wait between stations than the family of someone who had fallen out of a door that I had chosen to ignore or deemed safe.

 

[AngusH]

In this case I can't see that there is any evidence of any deliberate delay in raising the alarm at all.

The only statement I've found seems to be 'the train had travelled “a fair distance, perhaps several miles” with the doors open' (https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....n-ran-borders-railway-doors-wide-open-2989971)



Which at 60mph, could have been two or three minutes while someone noticed something odd, moved to see the door was open, then immediately raised the alarm.

That article also states that the alarm was raised by an off duty scotrail worker.

 

[eoff]

I certainly wouldn't want to be in a position where I could have prevented someone's death or injury yet didn't.

Do you walk along the platform pushing people back who are too close to the edge?

I have managed to obtain some relevant photos from one of the trains that I would normally travel on.





A bit unclear but it seems that if the objective is to stop the train due to faulty doors then go for the green handle as it mentions the train stopping.

 

[HarryL]

The green handle is designed to release the doors and stop the train, but if the doors are already open and the train is moving, something is likely wrong with that system. I would probably go for the red to be on the safe side in this instance, the green would be for if the carriage was on fire or something and the doors had to be opened.

Plus they're both next to the doors, you shouldn't be pulling the one next to the already open doors as you risk falling out, so you would be opening a second set if you pulled green.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except CAF stock, which appears to have the German arrangement (red = emergency brake, green = talk to staff - I forget what colour the emergency release is).

I believe this arrangement (which allowed the guard to put the brakes straight on by hitting the red one) saved the Caledonian Sleeper's bacon a while back.

 

[AngusH]

Excellent photos!

Too much knowledge is assumed by the signs I think.


The wording really isn't the best.


The green would be better if it was written to intent:

"To escape in emergency, ..., pull green handle ...."


So it would be clearly be irrelevant if the doors are open and you don't want them to be.





The red one seems to suggest that if you hear an alarm ringing
you should push the button and explain to the driver.

?

The (smaller) black text is much better:

"In an emergency push to talk to the driver"

 

[Bletchleyite]

The green handle is designed to release the doors and stop the train, but if the doors are already open and the train is moving, something is likely wrong with that system. I would probably go for the red to be on the safe side in this instance, the green would be for if the carriage was on fire or something and the doors had to be opened.

The green is also useful if the DOO driver has forgotten to release the doors on arrival at the terminus and just stopped, keyed out, got up and walked off. Yes, that has happened to me!

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

This thread is painful to read.

If you see a door open, pull the alarm. Simple.

 

[BayPaul]

I'm in the camp of not pulling the handle if the risk seemed low, though I have done the equivalent in other circumstances (calling 999 when I saw a red flare and also when I saw a forest fire across the river). I would personally prefer to stay safe in my seat rather than walk around a train with potentially multiple failed doors to find an alarm, which always tend to be by the doors. If I did go to find an alarm, I'd pull both red and green handle to be safe, then read the text, which seems far too detailed and specific on that photo.

 

[Meerkat]

Small chance of an incident vs big chance of taking hours to get home.
I get on the train to get somewhere......

 

[Merle Haggard]

My previous post (no 8), quoting the Meridian RAIB report, was intended to show the apparent insouciance regarding a door being open, as relevant to the reports about the O.P. incident.
It's interesting that in four pages of discussion about hypothetical actions to take, there has only been one reference to what seems to me a real possibility - that someone had already fallen out and is lying injured with no help at hand.
In the bad old/good old days of B.R., in the event of a door open the guard would walk through the train to look for any unattended personal belongings that suggested a passenger had left their seat and hadn't returned.

 

[the sniper]

This thread is painful to read.

If you see a door open, pull the alarm. Simple.

Someone contact the BTP and get them to stop the "If you see something that doesn't feel right" announcements, as the public clearly aren't in a position to judge what 'feels right'.

If flying along with doors open isn't worth reporting and "Alarm" is just too confusing as a title on the pass comm label, there isn't much hope.

 

[eoff]

Someone contact the BTP and get them to stop the "If you see something that doesn't feel right" announcements, as the public clearly aren't in a position to judge what 'feels right'.

Was it not "look right"? I remember when this annoucement first started at Edinburgh Waverley and it gave you no indication who you might be contacting. I so wanted to be able to phone up and report Michael Portillo's yellow trousers.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Small chance of an incident vs big chance of taking hours to get home.
I get on the train to get somewhere......

Bet you'd feel great if you did nothing then a child fell out....

 

[Robertj21a]

If there weren't too many people on board (as on many trains at present) and they were all adults then I don't see the point in me risking my life to get up to find an alarm - and then spend time reading red and green notices that aren't terribly clear to a layman. If the other adults are similarly aware, and the next station isn't far away, then I'd leave it alone.

 

[Devonian]

If ... "Alarm" is just too confusing as a title on the pass comm label, there isn't much hope.

Not much joy if you're looking for an 'Alarm' on the IETs, but at least you don't have to choose between red or green: someone's decided to try green labels saying 'SOS' above the red buttons...

 

[Lloyds siding]

Bit late to be reassessing risk on the fly at that point. What if you pull the passcom but one of the drunk people falls out the door ten seconds later while the train is still doing 50mph?

Firstly , I would be doing my very best to physically stop people falling out...drunk or not.
However, reassessing risk 'on the fly' as you put it, or as circumstances change as I would put it, is exactly what you are meant to do.
I'm very pleased that in recent months the railways have introduced reduced speed limits in adverse weather conditions, something that the motorways have been doing for years.

I'll pick up Deepgreen's issue of fire: a few years ago I was at Liverpool Central (underground station) when smoke started filing the sation, issuing from the railway tunnel. [It happened last week too] A passenger told station staff, who then stood in a gaggle at the end of the platform, peering into the dark smoky void. The smoke got worse and the smell was clearly burning electrical insulation. I decided (my judgement) that it wasn't a safe place to be....and in the absence of any other advice , shouted to my fellow passengers: ' I think we need to leave, NOW!'. It was only when I reached the top of the escalators that I heard shouts from below ' Please make your way to the exits as quickly as possible', followed by the fire alarms going off.

 

[O L Leigh]

Really, this thread is so full of hot air it's a wonder that my laptop didn't float up to the ceiling.

You are on the train because you want to get somewhere, stopping the train in the middle of nowhere for a few hours isn’t conducive to achieving that.

I might well think similarly because of the railway's approach to evacuations. Report it on plain line and you could be set for a 3 hour stranding. Report it at the next station (which wouldn't have been far off) and you can get off and get a taxi.

Operation of the alarm between stations might result in a multi-hour stranding and is therefore a very last resort.

Small chance of an incident vs big chance of taking hours to get home.
I get on the train to get somewhere......

Where has this suggestion that raising the alarm will result in a multi-hour stranding come from? Why is everyone jumping to the conclusion that this must be the only possible outcome when operating the passcom?

But to suggest that stopping a train in the middle of nowhere, and presumably evacuating is a 'safer' response is ridiculous.

No evac would be necessary for a situation like this. The crew will secure the door closed, proceed to the next station and then tip everyone out there at a location where other posters have already said they'd rather be.

Passengers make their own risk vs delay judgment, knowing how long things can take to sort out on the railway.
Passengers also make a judgment on self-responsibility that railways here are not allowed to - ie “if you manage not to notice the bloody great hole in the side of the train and fall out of it then that’s just Darwinism”.

The problem is that who would be ultimately responsible for the person who fell out of the train? The passengers who elected to do nothing or the railway company who operate the train? It isn't Darwinism in action but rather a question of responsibility.

If I may be permitted to make a suggestion...? If you see something like an open door on a train and are unsure of the correct course of action, go operate a passcom and ask the driver what he/she thinks. If it's no biggy then the driver can tell you and the train won't even have to stop. Even if it is older stock which automatically dumps the brake (by which I mean anything pre-Networker vintage with perhaps one or two exceptions), it's not likely to be an issue because, as has already been outlined, a door open in traffic definitely does merit getting the train stopped ASAP.

 

[Meerkat]

Where has this suggestion that raising the alarm will result in a multi-hour stranding come from? Why is everyone jumping to the conclusion that this must be the only possible outcome when operating the passcom?

No evac would be necessary for a situation like this. The crew will secure the door closed, proceed to the next station and then tip everyone out there at a location where other posters have already said they'd rather be.

So instead of arriving at your destination at the expected time you will be freezing your proverbial off at a random station whilst somebody tries to organise onward transportation by a slower form of transport?
And that‘s why people wouldn’t be in a hurry to get the train stopped.

The problem is that who would be ultimately responsible for the person who fell out of the train? The passengers who elected to do nothing or the railway company who operate the train? It isn't Darwinism in action but rather a question of responsibility.

Sure - and knowing the railway would have to react much more thoroughly than an individual would that individual might well decide not to hurry to give them the chance.

As for the idea that someone might have fallen out that is unlikely to have happened unnoticed unless there is no one else near the door......in which case there is no one to report it anyway.

 

[O L Leigh]

So instead of arriving at your destination at the expected time you will be freezing your proverbial off at a random station whilst somebody tries to organise onward transportation by a slower form of transport?
And that‘s why people wouldn’t be in a hurry to get the train stopped.

The passenger's Golden Rule. "Thou shalt not inconvenience me". Sad.

As for the idea that someone might have fallen out that is unlikely to have happened unnoticed unless there is no one else near the door......in which case there is no one to report it anyway.

That's the sort of assumption that we cannot afford to make, especially as passengers will clearly place convenience ahead of safety.

 

[LowLevel]

I think the people who are suggesting that someone wouldn't do something about a door being open because it might delay them are barking up the wrong tree based upon their own knowledge and perhaps an attempt to appear clever.

I personally subscribe to the "I am in a controlled environment so someone must be aware/doing something about it - I can't be in an unsafe environment" theory.

I've been in situations on trains that are clearly unsafe a few times. The passengers, despite in several cases being clearly terrified, did sod all.

This included one occasion where a rock went through a window, struck someone in the face causing them an injury having narrowly missed me with glass flying everywhere and all the passengers did was sit there, bar the woman who was injured who was understandably screeching.

I had to pick myself up to stop the train.

I genuinely think people, unless they have a particular element to their personality, entirely dissociate themselves in unpleasant or scary situations and as someone who does not, this has borne itself out throughout my life when I've taken action when others have just watched or even run away.

 

[jfowkes]

Firstly , I would be doing my very best to physically stop people falling out...drunk or not.

Which just puts both yourself and the person at risk of falling out. The potential harm of which you can drastically reduce by stopping the train.

However, reassessing risk 'on the fly' as you put it, or as circumstances change as I would put it, is exactly what you are meant to do.

Yes, but in this case it might be too late to do anything about it. Of course you should always consider changing circumstances. You should also look ahead and try to predict what might change. How likely is it the situation goes from basically controllable to basically uncontrollable? How quickly will that happen? How much will you be able to affect that?

I suggest that there are several potential ways in which an open door can go from "basically not so bad" to "very immediately hazardous" very quickly. And the way to prevent or reduce the risk of all of those things is stopping the train.