EMR Class 170 updates

[Bletchleyite]

This is not like Chiltern. The DfT forced the 170s to be converted to 168s and be sent to Chiltern, it's in their requirements for the bids for the franchise that the 170s will leave. The 171s are not leaving until a suitable replacement goes to Southern, Southern do not have to let them go like TPE did.

Currently the 171s are not leaving Southern.

And EMR aren't really stuck without the 170s as they can just continue to use 15x.

 

[LowLevel]

This is not like Chiltern. The DfT forced the 170s to be converted to 168s and be sent to Chiltern, it's in their requirements for the bids for the franchise that the 170s will leave. The 171s are not leaving until a suitable replacement goes to Southern, Southern do not have to let them go like TPE did.

Currently the 171s are not leaving Southern.

Heard elsewhere that the ex ScotRail units are likely to leave Southern sooner rather than later (I hear that they're not much of a loss anyway, hence ScotRail releasing them in the first place. The units already at EMR aren't exactly stunning performers in the reliability stakes).

As for Liverpool it won't be 158s, their time is up apparently - can't promise a move to TPE with the bells and whistles then leave the same 30 year old trains in place when the plan changes. Also apparently no additional 170s available. 185s the most likely option subject to some practicalities being resolved.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'd still have thought continued use of 158s makes the most sense for that, unless they're already committed to go to another TOC?

 

[Domh245]

This is not like Chiltern. The DfT forced the 170s to be converted to 168s and be sent to Chiltern, it's in their requirements for the bids for the franchise that the 170s will leave. The 171s are not leaving until a suitable replacement goes to Southern, Southern do not have to let them go like TPE did.

Currently the 171s are not leaving Southern.

That isn't at all what happened. The DfT through inaction (on letting TPE commit to their continued use allowed the ROSCO to move their units somewhere else with a longer guaranteed use. The DfT then had to intervene after the deals were signed to stop half the units leaving immediately and to otherwise backfill the lack of trains they'd created. DfT didn't force the movement to Chiltern at all, quite the opposite in fact.

Similarly, when looking in the Emergency Measures Agreement for EM (the closest we'll ever get to seeing the original franchise agreement I expect) - the various turbostars currently at Southern all carry the following note: "Fleet currently in use by the franchisee of the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise and must be free to incorporate into the franchise. "

Read that how you will, but my interpretation is that they are moving in September 2021 on the basis of some as yet unspecified solution. There's no conditionals in there

 

[43096]

That isn't at all what happened. The DfT through inaction (on letting TPE commit to their continued use allowed the ROSCO to move their units somewhere else with a longer guaranteed use. The DfT then had to intervene after the deals were signed to stop half the units leaving immediately and to otherwise backfill the lack of trains they'd created. DfT didn't force the movement to Chiltern at all, quite the opposite in fact.

Given that DfT sign off all rolling stock changes on a franchise, they actively agreed to the transfer. To suggest otherwise is incorrect. It was a problem of DfT’s own making: they could have not signed off the change to Chiltern’s fleet. But they did sign off, so presumably agreed with it.

 

[Gaz55]

I guess they might not have much of a say if push came to shove, but I can't see TPE wanting to let any of their 185s go. Given that TPE mostly run as them 6 cars now, wouldn't sending 12-14 185s to EMR leave them short and have to revert to 3 car 185s for most services?

 

[Energy]

Given that DfT sign off all rolling stock changes on a franchise, they actively agreed to the transfer. To suggest otherwise is incorrect. It was a problem of DfT’s own making: they could have not signed off the change to Chiltern’s fleet. But they did sign off, so presumably agreed with it.

Indeed, it's also in the TPE requirements that the 170s are leaving although this had already been agreed by the ROSCO.

 

[fgwrich]

Heard elsewhere that the ex ScotRail units are likely to leave Southern sooner rather than later (I hear that they're not much of a loss anyway, hence ScotRail releasing them in the first place. The units already at EMR aren't exactly stunning performers in the reliability stakes).

I can understand, the Scottish 4 at Southern have hardly been the most reliable of units (messing them around to become 2x4 car and 2x2 car didn’t help them either it seems) and I can imagine Selhurst will be glad to see the the back of them. Funny enough, the last time I traveled on them, you could see hints of NX ScotRail on them too - the seats are original with Southern covers over the ScotRail ones!

 

[Domh245]

Given that DfT sign off all rolling stock changes on a franchise, they actively agreed to the transfer. To suggest otherwise is incorrect. It was a problem of DfT’s own making: they could have not signed off the change to Chiltern’s fleet. But they did sign off, so presumably agreed with it.

Perhaps I'm misremembering it then, but given the poor response to the situation, and what (at the time) felt like a rather loose touch approach to franchise management from the DfT, it didn't seem like something the DfT were aware of. It's certainly wrong to suggest it was the DfT that forced a move given every article about it talks about agreements between Chiltern & Porterbrook, and nothing about DfT except in the context of trying to fix the capacity issue it created at TPE. Indeed, checking Hansard:

Stephen Hammond
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...k(NorthOfEngland)#contribution-14071054000096
The hon. Lady is wrong: the Department has identified a potential solution. We hope to be able to make a formal announcement later this summer. The decision to move the nine TransPennine Express class 170s was made by their owner. To address that, the Department is in commercial negotiations to develop a solution that is likely to see the introduction of more electric trains into the north, in addition to the 14 class 319s we have already announced, to release even more diesel units.

 

[Energy]

It's certainly wrong to suggest it was the DfT that forced a move

Correct although it is still different to Southern and EMR as for moving 171s it is a question of if there is a suitable replacement taken on by Southern, with TPE it was when they would move. The ROSCO hasn't said they are moving at X time. Southern are still keeping their 171s for now.

 

[43096]

Perhaps I'm misremembering it then, but given the poor response to the situation, and what (at the time) felt like a rather loose touch approach to franchise management from the DfT, it didn't seem like something the DfT were aware of. It's certainly wrong to suggest it was the DfT that forced a move given every article about it talks about agreements between Chiltern & Porterbrook, and nothing about DfT except in the context of trying to fix the capacity issue it created at TPE. Indeed, checking Hansard:

The DfT didn’t force the move, but it agreed to it.

Whilst the statement in Hansard is technically correct (it was Porterbrook’s decision to look for a new lease), it is what is omitted that is important. You wouldn’t expect a politician to tell the whole truth, would you? Especially if it reveals his own department is implicated.

 

[OTRail]

I guess they might not have much of a say if push came to shove, but I can't see TPE wanting to let any of their 185s go. Given that TPE mostly run as them 6 cars now, wouldn't sending 12-14 185s to EMR leave them short and have to revert to 3 car 185s for most services?

The plan was always to send near half of the 185s off lease as TPE has a brand new fleet of 45 5 carriage units which more than make up for the loss of the 185s. Originally it was planned to be 22 but 7 are being retained for TransPennine diverts during electrification. The remaining 15 are meant to go off lease in December although given the current situation, I wouldn’t be surprised if the lease on them was extended into early-mid 2021.

This is not like Chiltern. The DfT forced the 170s to be converted to 168s and be sent to Chiltern, it's in their requirements for the bids for the franchise that the 170s will leave. The 171s are not leaving until a suitable replacement goes to Southern, Southern do not have to let them go like TPE did.

Currently the 171s are not leaving Southern.

This is very much like Chiltern - the TPE 170s were available to be leased and Chiltern snapped them up from Porterbrook. This is the same situation in that the lease on Southern’s 171s expires in 2021 and EMR snapped them up from the leasing company, although I can imagine the DfT intervened and gave them leeway as there is a current shortage of DMUs and a surplus of EMUs, so they’ll only move when a suitable replacement is found.

 

[Qwerty133]

I'd still have thought continued use of 158s makes the most sense for that, unless they're already committed to go to another TOC?

The continued use of a fleet that are apparently already being diagrammed in a way to ensure they only spend a certain proportion of their time on Liverpool services for reliability reasons doesn't seem to be a particularly good idea. There is a reason why it is no longer uncommon to see 156s (and even 153s) on Liverpool services while 158s trundle through Lincolnshire. I'm sure the 158s have some life left in them on lower intensity secondary routes or in commuter territory where half of them can be left in sidings between the peak but their time on high intensity long distance services with little downtime needs to be brought to an end sooner rather than later.

 

[Domh245]

The ROSCO hasn't said they are moving at X time. Southern are still keeping their 171s for now.

Seeing as EMR are due to take on the lease for them in September 2021, that's a good indication. If it was all conditional on other things being sorted out you could be sure (hope!) that it'd say so in the agreement

 

[ChrisC]

The continued use of a fleet that are apparently already being diagrammed in a way to ensure they only spend a certain proportion of their time on Liverpool services for reliability reasons doesn't seem to be a particularly good idea. There is a reason why it is no longer uncommon to see 156s (and even 153s) on Liverpool services while 158s trundle through Lincolnshire. I'm sure the 158s have some life left in them on lower intensity secondary routes or in commuter territory where half of them can be left in sidings between the peak but their time on high intensity long distance services with little downtime needs to be brought to an end sooner rather than later.

Are the 170’s that are coming from Scotland going to be any more reliable in the long term? These are far from new trains and have been used very intensively on long distance routes in Scotland. Some of these routes like Glasgow/ Edinburgh to Aberdeen and Inverness are very busy routes with the Highland Mainline being quite a demanding route with many miles of quite steep gradients.

 

[Energy]

Seeing as EMR are due to take on the lease for them in September 2021, that's a good indication. If it was all conditional on other things being sorted out you could be sure (hope!) that it'd say so in the agreement

View attachment 85220

That's lists 26 171s, aren't there only 20 171s? Doesn't it also say that they will come if a replacement for Southern is found, that's what I remember reading otherwise the DfT should probably intervene unless they want a repeat of what happened with TPE but worse.

 

[greatvoyager]

That's lists 26 171s, aren't there only 20 171s? Doesn't it also say that they will come if a replacement for Southern is found, that's what I remember reading otherwise the DfT should probably intervene unless they want a repeat of what happened with TPE but worse.

I thought it was referring to number of vehicles.

 

[OTRail]

I thought it was referring to number of vehicles.

It should be - there are only 20 171s. 8x 2 car 171s and 4x 4 car 171s are being transferred to EMR, whilst the rest I’m assuming are remaining with Southern.

 

[Domh245]

That's lists 26 171s, aren't there only 20 171s? Doesn't it also say that they will come if a replacement for Southern is found, that's what I remember reading otherwise the DfT should probably intervene unless they want a repeat of what happened with TPE but worse.

26 171 vehicles in 2 and 3 car formation - 10x 2 car, 2x 3 car. Quite how they intend on forming that up I don't know, the 171/7s transfer over directly as 20 vehicles in 2 car formation, but the 3 cars are problematic - 1 171/8 will give you enough middle vehicles but they're a pair of driving vehicles short somewhere!

As for any mention about a replacement for southern being found, no - there is no mention of that whatsoever. The only references to Southern are what I quoted earlier (" Fleet currently in use by the franchisee of the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise and must be free to incorporate into the franchise") and that's it. No mention of contingencies or alternate solutions either in the body of the text I can see

 

[Energy]

I thought it was referring to number of vehicles.

Just looked, you are correct.

and must be free to incorporate into the franchise

I'm assuming that's it. Alternatives will not be mentioned as they are not related to EMR, if a replacement is found then they will be free, currently they are not free so will not be incorporated into the franchise.

 

[43096]

26 171 vehicles in 2 and 3 car formation - 10x 2 car, 2x 3 car. Quite how they intend on forming that up I don't know, the 171/7s transfer over directly as 20 vehicles in 2 car formation, but the 3 cars are problematic - 1 171/8 will give you enough middle vehicles but they're a pair of driving vehicles short somewhere!

They'd be better off just taking 2 x 4-car and either leaving them as they are or creating 2 x 3-car and then adding the displaced centre cars to a pair of 2-car sets. I'm a bit surprised Porterbrook have agreed to it as it leaves them with a pair of odd centre cars to find a lease for.

 

[Domh245]

They'd be better off just taking 2 x 4-car and either leaving them as they are or creating 2 x 3-car and then adding the displaced centre cars to a pair of 2-car sets. I'm a bit surprised Porterbrook have agreed to it as it leaves them with a pair of odd centre cars to find a lease for.

I suspect that it's a misprint because it does seem such an odd thing to do, creating surplus vehicles when there's not exactly a surplus in the first place. It also clashes with the plan that first emerged that @OTRail mentioned (which does add up). Leaving them as 4 cars strikes me as a planning headache when the rest of the fleet are 2 and 3 car units. My only other thought is that those potential surplus centre vehicles make their way into some other turbos, but if they did it wouldn't appear to be EMR based on the fleet table as the other fleets all add up as expected (or vice versa with a donor 2 car unit being lengthened).

At this point though, along with the 810s, I've given up trying to guess what is going to happen with EMR's fleet and I'm just going to wait until 2023 to see what happens! Feels like nothing quite adds up with any of them

 

[Energy]

At this point though, along with the 810s, I've given up trying to guess what is going to happen with EMR's fleet and I'm just going to wait until 2023 to see what happens! Feels like nothing quite adds up with any of them

Seems like a good idea, I'm not sure if EMR know if the 171s are coming themselves

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm assuming that's it. Alternatives will not be mentioned as they are not related to EMR, if a replacement is found then they will be free, currently they are not free so will not be incorporated into the franchise.

They are on lease to EMR from 2021 regardless of whether a replacement is found.

Seems like a good idea, I'm not sure if EMR know if the 171s are coming themselves

Well they do because they have signed a lease agreement for them from 2021.
It's up to GTR to find a replacement.

 

[samuelmorris]

They are on lease to EMR from 2021 regardless of whether a replacement is found.


Well they do because they have signed a lease agreement for them from 2021.
It's up to GTR to find a replacement.

Or the DfT to step in and change things. With Covid and the current franchise system upheaval, it's all potentially changeable. I can't ever see bus replacements happening just so EMR can get some more modern rolling stock, especially not when it's being taken from the South.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or the DfT to step in and change things. With Covid and the current franchise system upheaval, it's all potentially changeable. I can't ever see bus replacements happening just so EMR can get some more modern rolling stock, especially not when it's being taken from the South.

Particularly as EMR can just continue to use their existing 15x for as long as necessary; they're not crucial for anything else.

 

[Energy]

Or the DfT to step in and change things. With Covid and the current franchise system upheaval, it's all potentially changeable. I can't ever see bus replacements happening just so EMR can get some more modern rolling stock, especially not when it's being taken from the South.

As it's the south the DfT may be more inclined to step in as it's a bit closer to home. It would also leave places without any rail service, they would only have 8 trains instead of 20, at TPE they may have lost 9 trains but they have around 50 185s to take the strain. The rest of Southerns fleet is all electric.

Particularly as EMR can just continue to use their existing 15x for as long as necessary; they're not crucial for anything else.

Indeed, Chiltern was additional stock for Oxford and wasnt replacing anything, Chiltern didnt have the option of just keeping on stock which EMR does.

 

[43096]

They are on lease to EMR from 2021 regardless of whether a replacement is found.


Well they do because they have signed a lease agreement for them from 2021.
It's up to GTR to find a replacement.

You need to read the EMR franchise agreement. It is very clear that the units only come if there is a replacement in place for GTR. The wording says "Fleet currently in use by the franchisee of the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise and must be free to incorporate into the franchise."

 

[Qwerty133]

Particularly as EMR can just continue to use their existing 15x for as long as necessary; they're not crucial for anything else.

They're also not in any state to be kept in service on the routes they currently operate for any longer than the current plan and it is already becoming increasingly difficult to keep them in service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're also not in any state to be kept in service on the routes they currently operate for any longer than the current plan and it is already becoming increasingly difficult to keep them in service.

In what way? It's not like Northern aren't operating their day to day service on very similar routes with classes 156 and 158 (and older-still 150s) with no scrapping in sight.