Trivia - Routes With Genuine Shared Traffic Between TOCs

[The Planner]

Not previously heard that. What's the meaning of the phrase?

Every day's a school day on here!

Basically moving money about for no real reason. A very loose explanation is that TOCs pay extra via track access charges to cover the cost of NR paying them back via Schedule 4, the Access Charge Supplement (ACS). It is meant to even out but depending on what NR are doing in terms of disruption TOCs can make a tidy little sum. In total the whole lot comes to around £300 million a year normally.
Schedule 4 payments

 

[Mag_seven]

Not previously heard that. What's the meaning of the phrase?

Every day's a school day on here!

I remember that phrase ("wooden dollars") being used when the performance regimes were being set up between Railtrack (as was) and the newly fledged TOCS.

 

[Horizon22]

Are you sure that isn't Wimbledon?

Seeing as Wimbledon is SW London, and Harrow NW London I don't think so!

Basically moving money about for no real reason. A very loose explanation is that TOCs pay extra via track access charges to cover the cost of NR paying them back via Schedule 4, the Access Charge Supplement (ACS). It is meant to even out but depending on what NR are doing in terms of disruption TOCs can make a tidy little sum. In total the whole lot comes to around £300 million a year normally.
Schedule 4 payments

I like to call it the "washing machine of money" between NR and TOCs for no good reason - delay payments often being the same issue.

 

[Domh245]

Are you sure that isn't Wimbledon?

No - Wimbledon is purely LU for service trains with SWR running a handful of Empty stock moves at the odd ends of the day. Queens Park - Harrow has passenger service from both LU Bakerloo and Overground

Richmond - Gunnersbury is the equivalent on the District

 

[yorkie]

Are you sure that isn't Wimbledon?

Quite sure: https://www.fastjp.com/#journeys?orig=QPW&dest=HRW&odate=20210113&otime=1700&maxres=10&maxch=5

 

[Mag_seven]

Are you sure that isn't Wimbledon?

No I don't mean Wimbledon - I mean exactly what I say I mean - Queens Park to Harrow and Wealdstone is operated by both London Underground (Bakerloo Line) and London Overground (Euston to Watford).

 

[DerekC]

A lot of the cases listed are relatively short hops where journey times are unlikely to differ by more than a couple of minutes, whatever you do. The real competition is where you have slower/cheaper and faster/more expensive options - like on WCML between Avanti and LM.

 

[Mikey C]

Also in London between Clapham Junction and Shepherd's Bush, shared by London Overground and Southern

 

[Royston Vasey]

No I don't mean Wimbledon - I mean exactly what I say I mean - Queens Park to Harrow and Wealdstone is operated by both London Underground (Bakerloo Line) and London Overground (Euston to Watford).

It was a Wombles joke

Never mind!

 

[RPI]

Southampton to Portsmouth with GWR/SWR.

Taunton to Plymouth XC and GWR with very similar service frequency

Salisbury to Southampton although the GWR services are faster than the SWR "Romsey rounders"

 

[30907]

I live near Dorking, Surrey. This weekend there are no trains on the radial Epsom to Dorking route and the replacement buses are needlessly complicated, apparently because two TOCs share the route. It set me wondering where there are other routes that are more or less equally shared by different TOCs with very similar service patterns and provision. In the Dorking case SWR and Southern operate what are essentially similar suburban services along the corridor, so neither offers a fast vs. slow service, etc. I can't think of anywhere else in the UK where this situation exists, but I'd be surprised if I've not missed examples.

The only needless complication I can find on RTT is that SN are calling at the Burford Bridge Hotel while SW are supposedly calling at Boxhill Station.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Chester to Crewe is a good one - historically a good earner for the regional operator , despite an often 2 car covering the same route as a much comfier and longer train.

 

[Watershed]

Chester to Crewe is a good one - historically a good earner for the regional operator , despite an often 2 car covering the same route as a much comfier and longer train.

Yes - the 25 minute journey time means that just one unit can extract around half of the ORCATS pie. Given the "commercial" nature of the fare (even averaging 51mph, the train is quicker than driving, especially during rush hour), it's quite the revenue per unit ratio!

 

[trebor79]

Ely and Thetford to Norwich. 1 EMR and 1 GA service each way every hour.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes - the 25 minute journey time means that just one unit can extract around half of the ORCATS pie. Given the "commercial" nature of the fare (even averaging 51mph, the train is quicker than driving, especially during rush hour), it's quite the revenue per unit ratio!

Even back in North West Trains operation of CE- CHE , it was a very good earner. More so in more normal times.

 

[paulmch]

Ely and Thetford to Norwich. 1 EMR and 1 GA service each way every hour.

Cambridge to Ely too - 3 operators at peak times

 

[norbitonflyer]

Seeing as Wimbledon is SW London, and Harrow NW London I don't think so!



I like to call it the "washing machine of money" between NR and TOCs for no good reason - delay payments often being the same issue.

Wooden dollars usually means pretend money - one government-owned business paying another one. Since it never comes in or goes out of the Treasury coffers, it is seen as not real money. During shadow franchising, all the players (Railtrack, shadow TOCs, ROSCOs) were subsidiaries of British Rail so the money went round in circles. That ended when some of the players were privatised. Now some of the money was leaving the cycle as each company expected to make a profit.

 

[gaillark]

Peterborough - Stevenage and London with LNER and Great Northern and Thameslink.
Milton Keynes - Watford Jn and London with Avanti, London Northwestern and Southern.
Coventry to Birmingham and Wolverhampton with Avanti, London Northwestern/West Midlands and Cross Country.

 

[DerekC]

No I don't mean Wimbledon - I mean exactly what I say I mean - Queens Park to Harrow and Wealdstone is operated by both London Underground (Bakerloo Line) and London Overground (Euston to Watford).

It was a Wombles joke

Never mind!

 

[Mag_seven]

It was a Wombles joke

Never mind!

What are the Wombles?

(p.s. I actually know what they are but for the benefit of our younger readers.)

 

[Newtraveller58]

Aberdeen to Edinburgh normally has 3 operators - ScotRail, LNER and Cross Country. When there is engineering work or other disruption, they tend to do their own thing with LNER and Cross Country often bussing the whole way, while ScotRail operate a service over the part of the route which is open and bus a shorter distance. Can lead to passengers from London being told to get on a bus at Edinburgh to, for example, Dundee when there is a perfectly good ScotRail train service.

 

[Deepgreen]

The only needless complication I can find on RTT is that SN are calling at the Burford Bridge Hotel while SW are supposedly calling at Boxhill Station.

The issue was to do with the NRE explanation of why which TOC's buses don't go to where and when - no-one cares why, they just want to catch the replacement buses with minimal fuss.

Some interesting examples here, but many don't match the Dorking corridor's more or less equal service provision and very similar train types (no criticism of the offerings, BTW) - i.e. not slow and fasts on the same route or frequent and infrequent ditto.

Queens Park to Harrow and Wealdstone - operated by both London Underground and London Overground

Effectively the same TOC.

 

[GoneSouth]

Gloucester/Cheltenham to Cardiff has TfW and XC both running almost identical hourly services, or at least it did have until covid crippled XC

 

[Royston Vasey]

What are the Wombles?

(p.s. I actually know what they are but for the benefit of our younger readers.)

Happy to!

The Wombles were an allegedly fictional group of furry creatures who inhabited Wimbledon Common in the 1970s, and busied themselves tidying up the Common and, rather pioneeringly, reusing and upcycling discarded rubbish.

The theme tune to the programme started "Underground, Overground, wombling free; the Wombles of Wimbledon Common are we"

Unfortunately the Tooting Merton and Wimbledon Extention Railway only lasted until 1975, closing to passengers in 1929, which didn't give the Overground any chance at all to serve Wimbledon. I expect the Wombles quickly acquired the sleepers to repurpose for shoring up their tunnels and so forth.

 

[Bald Rick]

Effectively the same TOC.

Absolutely not! Same specifier, but very different operations and management. No different to SWR and GTR who both have the same specifier.

 

[vlad]

There are 3 TOCs operating between Manchester and Stoke via Macclesfield....

True - but I wouldn't say they're equal.

Avanti and Cross Country both take about the same amount of time but there's a definite difference between what they offer. I've never had to stand on Avanti/Virgin whereas Cross Country is another matter....

Then there's the Northern stopper which takes half as long again and doesn't really offer any facilities. I've also known them to be completely rammed. Having said that, I'm a fan of 323s - and now they've brought in Northern-only tickets that are quite a bit cheaper than what the other two offer they're certainly an alternative.

 

[trebor79]

Cambridge to Ely too - 3 operators at peak times

Oh yes, good one! In fact aren't there 4 - GA, GN, Thameslink and XC?

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Oh yes, good one! In fact aren't there 4 - GA, GN, Thameslink and XC?

I don't think Thameslink makes it as far as Ely.

 

[dk1]

I don't think Thameslink makes it as far as Ely.

Occasionally used to use 700s on the Ely-Kings X but that's stopped. I wouldn't call GN & TL separate operators though.

Cambridge to Ely too - 3 operators at peak times

3 operators all day long.

 

[alangla]

Aberdeen to Edinburgh normally has 3 operators - ScotRail, LNER and Cross Country. When there is engineering work or other disruption, they tend to do their own thing with LNER and Cross Country often bussing the whole way, while ScotRail operate a service over the part of the route which is open and bus a shorter distance. Can lead to passengers from London being told to get on a bus at Edinburgh to, for example, Dundee when there is a perfectly good ScotRail train service.

Define “perfectly good” - until recently it was generally a packed 3 car 170. If you were doing a longer journey with luggage, the coach from Edinburgh would probably be preferable, especially if it was routed direct to Dundee via the M90 rather than every lamp post in Fife

edit: just looked at last Sunday, the buses marked as operated by LNER at Aberdeen were all either non-stop between Edinburgh & Dundee or Edinburgh & Aberdeen, so presumably would have gone via the M90. The Aberdeen direct ones would presumably have just gone round the Dundee bypass as well