Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Bikeman78]

So you consider equipment capable of reducing a cab temperature from (say) 30C+ on some days in mid-summer to 19C a minor perk, wow.

Why would you want to cool it to 19? I would get cold sitting still for hours at that temperature. During one of the summer heatwaves it was 30C outside and 23C in my house. It felt like walking into an air conditioned building.

 

[Llama]

In reply to some of the recent posts - line speed doesn't come in to it, they're barely capable of anything above 60-70mph anyway. 769s can't reach the maximum line speed of 70 on the Southport line which has no gradient for the most part.

Training drivers now for next Summer doesn't work. Knowledge retention.

Agreeing to allow these units in service until say May subject to fitment of cab HVAC by then is naive in the extreme. Leverage doesn't work like that, not in this instance.

These units are in no way vital for operation of the current, or expected, service levels any time soon.

 

[The Ham]

In reply to some of the recent posts - line speed doesn't come in to it, they're barely capable of anything above 60-70mph anyway. 769s can't reach the maximum line speed of 70 on the Southport line which has no gradient for the most part.

Training drivers now for next Summer doesn't work. Knowledge retention.

Agreeing to allow these units in service until say May subject to fitment of cab HVAC by then is naive in the extreme. Leverage doesn't work like that, not in this instance.

These units are in no way vital for operation of the current, or expected, service levels any time soon.

If they're not needed any time soon then there's no leverage anyway.

The argument for allowing the training is that the TOC will have spent money on training which would then also be wasted if they don't sort out the Aircon. (i.e. "the government has spent £x more than they needed to only to then not use them as Aircon hasn't been fitted even though we've allowed ongoing training whilst the weather was cool", at a time where the railways are being funded significantly by the tax payer that's easier to get the public on side with rather than the line of "we're not doing anything until it's fixed").

Anyway, whilst the 769's may not be needed they would reduce costs (by being able to use electric power rather than diesel for sections of their milage) and so there would likely be a desire for them to enter service, especially if it allows other units to be withdrawn from service.

 

[Bikeman78]

In reply to some of the recent posts - line speed doesn't come in to it, they're barely capable of anything above 60-70mph anyway. 769s can't reach the maximum line speed of 70 on the Southport line which has no gradient for the most part.

These units are in no way vital for operation of the current, or expected, service levels any time soon.

Pretty poor when you consider that a Pacer can easily do 75 on the flat section from Cardiff to Newport.

What will replace the Northern Pacers in December if not 769s?

 

[Llama]

Pretty poor when you consider that a Pacer can easily do 75 on the flat section from Cardiff to Newport.

What will replace the Northern Pacers in December if not 769s?

There are hardly any 142s running round now as it is, and as I understand it stock utilisation isn't stretched at the moment too so probably more 150/156.

 

[Bikeman78]

There are hardly any 142s running round now as it is, and as I understand it stock utilisation isn't stretched at the moment too so probably more 150/156.

There are eight diagrams on paper. It makes sense to have a float of spare units in Autumn to cover for wheel flats so keeping some 142s until December makes sense.

 

[Mollman]

In reply to some of the recent posts - line speed doesn't come in to it, they're barely capable of anything above 60-70mph anyway. 769s can't reach the maximum line speed of 70 on the Southport line which has no gradient for the most part.

Is that official? If so then surely it creates more questions about the project's viability as they were meant to match the performance of a 150.

 

[Senna1210]

Is that official? If so then surely it creates more questions about the project's viability as they were meant to match the performance of a 150.

Having been on one at well over 75mph this is more false truths written by people that have not even steped on one never mind even ridden one

 

[adsteamfan]

Having been on one at well over 75mph this is more false truths written by people that have not even steped on one never mind even ridden one

I think you need to have a look at some of Llama's past posts on various threads before posting! If anyone on here is likely to have driven a Northern 769 then I think that he is near the top of the list and I have never found any of his posts to be wide of the mark.

 

[Senna1210]

I think you need to have a look at some of Llama's past posts on various threads before posting! If anyone on here is likely to have driven a Northern 769 then I think that he is near the top of the list and I have never found any of his posts to be wide of the mark.

Well no disrespect to him but some of us might have spend a bit more time on them over the past few years

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well no disrespect to him but some of us might have spend a bit more time on them over the past few years

I am wondering is that experience in diesel mode as a 769, electric mode as a 769 or electric mode as a 319 ?. Wondering if the alleged limit on capability of 75mph does not apply in electric mode or at least when the were 319s.

 

[Bikeman78]

I am wondering is that experience in diesel mode as a 769, electric mode as a 769 or electric mode as a 319 ?. Wondering if the alleged limit on capability of 75mph does not apply in electric mode or at least when the were 319s.

That's a good point. 319s get into the 90s between Salford and Bolton so hopefully 769s on electric power will be similar.

 

[Llama]

319s aren't capable of getting into the 90s between Salford and Bolton. The other way round going down the gradient, yes they just about touch 95 through Clifton, they'd get to 95 about half a mile before by the motorway bridge if the long-standing 75mph TSR wasn't on on the up Bolton near Stoneclough.

As for being on a 769 on diesel mode at over 75mph, I don't doubt that - but what was the gradient. I'll bet it wasn't rising.

 

[warwickshire]

Heard on the grapevine northern have a start period off March 2021 approximately for 769 introduction whether it's in passenger service or maybe just staff tng runs. Again from Facebook pages.
Any more information anyone?.
Would be much appreciated.

 

[DustyBin]

319s aren't capable of getting into the 90s between Salford and Bolton. The other way round going down the gradient, yes they just about touch 95 through Clifton, they'd get to 95 about half a mile before by the motorway bridge if the long-standing 75mph TSR wasn't on on the up Bolton near Stoneclough.

As for being on a 769 on diesel mode at over 75mph, I don't doubt that - but what was the gradient. I'll bet it wasn't rising.

I asked this (OT question!) on the TFW 769 thread, but I think it’s more likely to be answered here. How/why did the 319’s gain such a poor reputation performance wise at Northern? I’ve seen it mentioned several times but it doesn’t make sense when they were fine on Thameslink (occasional slipping aside). Compared to a pacer or a 15X they should feel rather quick? I realise they won’t match the acceleration of a 323 though, maybe that was the issue?

 

[AM9]

I asked this (OT question!) on the TFW 769 thread, but I think it’s more likely to be answered here. How/why did the 319’s gain such a poor reputation performance wise at Northern? I’ve seen it mentioned several times but it doesn’t make sense when they were fine on Thameslink (occasional slipping aside). Compared to a pacer or a 15X they should feel rather quick? I realise they won’t match the acceleration of a 323 though, maybe that was the issue?

Ever since the 319s were transferred to Northern, there have been posts about how bad these 'London cast-offs' were, not focussing only their internal accommodation shortfalls, but alluding to their terrible track performance.
All of this was in the face of their 20+ years of heavy use on a 100mph mainline in the south-east where failures and poor running would have had an immediate effect on their route's services. Their drivers were capable of keeping within tight paths such that the services worked together.
The same hardware with an additional mass of two genset's that together weigh less than a full seated passenger load in two cars are now being supplied about 60% of their power which will inevitably, reduce their acceleration relative to their EMU performance. But on a straight run, their terminal speed will eventually probably reach the sort of speeds that they achieved during testing, i.e. c90mph. In addition, adequate performance can be delivered across the speed range because there is little loss of torque with a DE transmission and an almost flat power curve.

 

[Bob Price]

This is fine for pootling up the Rhymney Valley where they don't get much above 75 and stop frequently but don't think they would win any friends if they were used on main line routes in Wales.

 

[Ribbleman]

Heard on the grapevine northern have a start period off March 2021 approximately for 769 introduction whether it's in passenger service or maybe just staff tng runs. Again from Facebook pages.
Any more information anyone?.
Would be much appreciated.

They have informed rail user groups that they now hope to introduce the 769s in service from Southport to Alderley Edge in the first quarter of next year. It's all a bit vague but is clearly subject to being able to prove the reliability of the sets and to train sufficient members of staff.

 

[Wolfie]

I would suggest that ASLEF speak to the NUM (National Union of Mineworkers). How many members do the NUM have now compared to, say, 1980?

It was rather easier to import coal or use alternative energy sources though....

I’d argue they’re old trains with new parts. The SR design EPB example isn’t the same thing really, yes they used salvaged under frames but they were substantially, and to all intents and purposes, new trains. I’ll admit it’s open to interpretation....

It doesn’t help that TFW have fitted A/C to their 769s as it makes it look like (typical) cost cutting at Northern....

Re your last sentence, so what is new?

I’ve been an ASLEF member since 2002. Until they sort their officers out I’ll keep having digs

Not a dig but surely as a member you get to vote for them? I certainly do in my TU...

Now that it is almost November, there is at least 6 months until temperatures will reach 30C. Is there a chance of getting drivers training whilst an Air-Con solution is sorted out simultaneously in time for next summer?

A reasonable compromise if and only if the summer deadline is met.... Looking at most programmes on the railway, and given that we are in the middle of a global pandemic, how likely is that?

 

[bengley]

I asked this (OT question!) on the TFW 769 thread, but I think it’s more likely to be answered here. How/why did the 319’s gain such a poor reputation performance wise at Northern? I’ve seen it mentioned several times but it doesn’t make sense when they were fine on Thameslink (occasional slipping aside). Compared to a pacer or a 15X they should feel rather quick? I realise they won’t match the acceleration of a 323 though, maybe that was the issue?

Northern have a ridiculous policy of only opening up the power in stages. When they were at Thameslink they were driven properly (Straight into notch 2 then once the train starts moving, into 4).

The power in notch 1 is extremely low but Northern drivers seem to use it until about 15mph.

 

[DustyBin]

Northern have a ridiculous policy of only opening up the power in stages. When they were at Thameslink they were driven properly (Straight into notch 2 then once the train starts moving, into 4).

The power in notch 1 is extremely low but Northern drivers seem to use it until about 15mph.

Thanks that explains it! So they are sluggish but it’s down to ‘user error’, crazy!

 

[NoMorePacers]

In contrast Northern's diesels (to my ears at least) seem to be driven quite aggressively - interesting to see a difference between power modes.

 

[bengley]

Thanks that explains it! So they are sluggish but it’s down to ‘user error’, crazy!

Not so much user error - the drivers are simply doing what they've been told to do.

It's mainly that someone in the company decided that a spate of failures was caused by Liverpool drivers opening straight up to notch 4 and tripping the MCORs (Motor contactor overload relay)

This never happened at Thameslink (to my knowledge - and I drove them down there)

 

[AM9]

In contrast Northern's diesels (to my ears at least) seem to be driven quite aggressively - interesting to see a difference between power modes.

Well if the 769s only have about 60% of the electric power available when on diesel, does that mean that once they have reach about 10mph, the driver can open the controller fully to notch 4, which would be similar to notch 3 on electric? The diesel engines on the 769s are to the latest design, have a much gentler load to drive, and they are brand new, so if thrashing the 150/156s is the norm, the MAN 2876 units should be at least as reliable and economical as the old Cummins NT855R5s when made to work.

 

[Crossforth]

Unless my eyes deceived me, I saw a double 319/769 at Wigan North Western at 11:50 this morning. I didn't think much of the front but the rear unit didn't have its pantograph up and was 434 which I now know to be 769434.

Now I'm in work with access to trust, I can't see unit numbers to confirm, but I can say that the sets I saw were working 5Q30 10:46 Allerton TMD to Blackpool North and return as 5Q36 14:15 Blackpool North to Allerton TMD.

 

[DustyBin]

Not so much user error - the drivers are simply doing what they've been told to do.

It's mainly that someone in the company decided that a spate of failures was caused by Liverpool drivers opening straight up to notch 4 and tripping the MCORs (Motor contactor overload relay)

This never happened at Thameslink (to my knowledge - and I drove them down there)

Yes sorry I wasn’t blaming the drivers, as you say it’s a policy issue.

 

[Efini92]

Northern have a ridiculous policy of only opening up the power in stages. When they were at Thameslink they were driven properly (Straight into notch 2 then once the train starts moving, into 4).

The power in notch 1 is extremely low but Northern drivers seem to use it until about 15mph.

I was trained to go straight into notch 4 on them.

 

[warwickshire]

Unless my eyes deceived me, I saw a double 319/769 at Wigan North Western at 11:50 this morning. I didn't think much of the front but the rear unit didn't have its pantograph up and was 434 which I now know to be 769434.

Now I'm in work with access to trust, I can't see unit numbers to confirm, but I can say that the sets I saw were working 5Q30 10:46 Allerton TMD to Blackpool North and return as 5Q36 14:15 Blackpool North to Allerton TMD.

Yes there have been a few moves which started around the last fortnight or so and one off them failed at poulton le flyde as well. Cannot remember exact day though. But it was the very first off the moves but with rail operations group in charge.

 

[bengley]

I was trained to go straight into notch 4 on them.

Are you a Liverpool driver?

 

[Crossforth]

Also of note, 769424 is working:
14:45 Wigan Springs Branch - Blackpool North
15:41 Blackpool North - Wigan Springs Branch