Inappropriate behaviour & threats by the police citing Covid 19 regulations

[Richard Scott]

And we are now seeing all the "SAGE scientists" saying that you shouldn't meet your family at Christmas, despite the government relaxing the rules to allow for this. So if you see Granny at Christmas, you will kill her, and have to spend the whole of January and February in complete lockdown.

Just ignoring SAGE now (to be honest always did!) they just want to keep themselves in the limelight.
As for police threats perhaps it's becoming more apparent that more and more people have had enough and starting to ignore the rules and they're worried they're losing control of people's lives?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

So, let me read that again...
London could be in Tier 3 ‘this time next week’ : December 19
Only for rules to be relaxed on December 23rd

4 days ??? Wow!

 

[LOL The Irony]

We mustn’t lose respect for the police

I did long before they used covid as an excuse to start being the stasi (if you want to know the force, they're located between Cheshire, Merseyside, Lancashire, West Yorkshire & Derbyshire). Their actions have only solidified my stance that there needs to be widescale reform.

 

[DB]

Is it just round here, or are the police everywhere now wearing masks when patrolling outside? I assume it's meant to be reinforcing the paranoia message.

 

[Richard Scott]

Is it just round here, or are the police everywhere now wearing masks when patrolling outside? I assume it's meant to be reinforcing the paranoia message.

Seen it round by me, just makes me think how stupid the whole mask thing is.

 

[bramling]

Is it just round here, or are the police everywhere now wearing masks when patrolling outside? I assume it's meant to be reinforcing the paranoia message.

BTP are about 50/50, and most come off as soon as they’re actually doing any kind of task. Can’t speak for my local force as barely see them, though we did have two turn up at our door a few weeks ago looking for information on a local incident, neither had masks on.

 

[al78]

I don't know about the police, but my father has just openly admitted to what I think is inappropriate behaviour. He is directly calling out anyone in a shop not wearing a mask, to the point where one woman went hysterical. He apparently expects people to have some kind of proof they are legitimately exempt if, for example, they have anxiety. I do obey the mask rules even though I find it a nuisance, but I wouldn't dream of going that far. I would like to convince him the error of his ways, but it is difficult as he can be extremely stubborn and he will just claim they should be obeying the rules*, which technically is correct, but promoting yourself to an enforcer is something I don't think one shold be doing, unless you are trying to stop someone directly causing harm. Being mid 80's in age, he is arguably less likely to get a beating than if it were someone my age doing it.

*Similar behaviour on motorways, flashing at drivers who hog the middle lane.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I don't know about the police, but my father has just openly admitted to what I think is inappropriate behaviour. He is directly calling out anyone in a shop not wearing a mask, to the point where one woman went hysterical. He apparently expects people to have some kind of proof they are legitimately exempt if, for example, they have anxiety. I do obey the mask rules even though I find it a nuisance, but I wouldn't dream of going that far. I would like to convince him the error of his ways, but it is difficult as he can be extremely stubborn and he will just claim they should be obeying the rules*, which technically is correct, but promoting yourself to an enforcer is something I don't think one shold be doing, unless you are trying to stop someone directly causing harm. Being mid 80's in age, he is arguably less likely to get a beating than if it were someone my age doing it.

*Similar behaviour on motorways, flashing at drivers who hog the middle lane.

I do that to middle lane hoggers too and I'm 35. Non mask wearers though are a different matter. Not seen as much police presence in my local area recently, but there's still the odd car patrolling sensibly.

 

[al78]

I do that to middle lane hoggers too and I'm 35. Non mask wearers though are a different matter. Not seen as much police presence in my local area recently, but there's still the odd car patrolling sensibly.

I understand the motivation there and it irritates me, but I don't react to it. I am not comfortable confronting anyone (strangers) with rule breaking, which some might say makes me a coward, but there are two problems in my mind. One, I don't have authority over other people so I don't have the right to try and make them do anything, even if technically and/or logically I may be right, and two, someone could easily turn violent, you don't know who you are confronting, and I know I could not handle myself in a street fight, so I would rather not go there and instead live another day to fight more suitable battles. It would be different if someone I loved or myself was attacked without provocation, I would at least try to defend myself/them or (preferably) get me/them away from the situation as a first priority.

A lot of people wear masks around Horsham town centre, even outdoors,and almost everyone when in shops. I went out for a meal in Haywards Heath earlier this evening (on my own) and the (very) few passengers on the train and on stations were wearing masks, so maybe the compliance rate is very region dependant.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I understand the motivation there and it irritates me, but I don't react to it. I am not comfortable confronting anyone (strangers) with rule breaking, which some might say makes me a coward, but there are two problems in my mind. One, I don't have authority over other people so I don't have the right to try and make them do anything, even if technically and/or logically I may be right, and two, someone could easily turn violent, you don't know who you are confronting, and I know I could not handle myself in a street fight, so I would rather not go there and instead live another day to fight more suitable battles. It would be different if someone I loved or myself was attacked without provocation, I would at least try to defend myself/them or (preferably) get me/them away from the situation as a first priority.

A lot of people wear masks around Horsham town centre, even outdoors,and almost everyone when in shops. I went out for a meal in Haywards Heath earlier this evening (on my own) and the (very) few passengers on the train and on stations were wearing masks, so maybe the compliance rate is very region dependant.

I only do it to middle lane hoggers as I'm conscious that they'll pick up a fine if the traffic Gestapo see them! Otherwise I wouldn't be concerned some/quite a few may not be doing it maliciously anyway. You're right about people turning on you on the streets or in shops..I haven't had it personally hence I don't challenge non mask wearers, but the presence of a sunflower lanyard always reassures me - they're not hard to obtain.

 

[DB]

I only do it to middle lane hoggers as I'm conscious that they'll pick up a fine if the traffic Gestapo see them! Otherwise I wouldn't be concerned some/quite a few may not be doing it maliciously anyway. You're right about people turning on you on the streets or in shops..I haven't had it personally hence I don't challenge non mask wearers, but the presence of a sunflower lanyard always reassures me - they're not hard to obtain.

You have no right to expect to be 'reassured' - it is simply none of your business why somebody is not wearing one, and there is no requirement to wear any form of 'proof'.

It's as a result of this attitude, and the encouragement that it gives to assorted jobsworths and maskivists, that those of us who cannot wear masks are increasingly being forced into wearing one of those lanyards in order not to be harassed regularly.

 

[bramling]

You have no right to expect to be 'reassured' - it is simply none of your business why somebody is not wearing one, and there is no requirement to wear any form of 'proof'.

It's as a result of this attitude, and the encouragement that it gives to assorted jobsworths and maskivists, that those of us who cannot wear masks are increasingly being forced into wearing one of those lanyards in order not to be harassed regularly.

This culture of challenging and calling out things which we don’t like is very concerning, as regardless of the rights or wrongs of masks it makes for a very unpleasant society when people feel they can confront someone doing something which they’d prefer them not to be doing. This isn’t to anyone’s benefit.

The point about lanyards is frustrating. Someone devoid of mask but wearing a lanyard is of course no more or less likely to pass on Covid than someone devoid of mask with no lanyard. So the reassurance is completely false, apart from of course that it reassures others that the person is actually exempt. Oh, except it actually doesn’t!

I continue to be of the opinion that this is all about “it’s not fair I’m wearing one and you’re not” rather than anything meaningful.

 

[al78]

This culture of challenging and calling out things which we don’t like is very concerning, as regardless of the rights or wrongs of masks it makes for a very unpleasant society when people feel they can confront someone doing something which they’d prefer them not to be doing. This isn’t to anyone’s benefit.

The point about lanyards is frustrating. Someone devoid of mask but wearing a lanyard is of course no more or less likely to pass on Covid than someone devoid of mask with no lanyard. So the reassurance is completely false, apart from of course that it reassures others that the person is actually exempt. Oh, except it actually doesn’t!

I continue to be of the opinion that this is all about “it’s not fair I’m wearing one and you’re not” rather than anything meaningful.

Has it been shown scientifically that masks make no difference to the risk of transmission in indoor spaces?

It is not a culture of challenging things you don't like, it is a culture of challenging the selfish, thoughtless and entitled. The reason we have a culture of challenging is because there are too many people who have an entitlement attitude to break rules they personally don't like because they think they can get away with it, regardless of whether doing so externalises risk or consequence onto others. It happens with motoring offences all the time, it is nothing new. There wouldn't be any desire to call people out if people followed the rules, so it is the rule breakers you should be against, they are the primary cause, the confrontation of rule breakers is a retaliation. Blame the cause, not the retaliation. Confrontation is nothing new either, I've read stuff in the paper years, even decades ago about have a go heroes or some elderly person (protected by the vulnerability of their age) challenging someone succssfully, because beating up a frail old lady is very likely to end up worse for the perpetrator than conceding they shouldn't have been doing what they are being challenged about. There is risk of course, one or two have a go heroes have been killed.

Don't want confrontation? Don't be a tea double you eh tea. It has worked wonderfully for me all my life.

 

[bramling]

Has it been shown scientifically that masks make no difference to the risk of transmission in indoor spaces?

It is not a culture of challenging things you don't like, it is a culture of challenging the selfish, thoughtless and entitled. The reason we have a culture of challenging is because there are too many people who have an entitlement attitude to break rules they personally don't like because they think they can get away with it, regardless of whether doing so externalises risk or consequence onto others. It happens with motoring offences all the time, it is nothing new. There wouldn't be any desire to call people out if people followed the rules, so it is the rule breakers you should be against, they are the primary cause, the confrontation of rule breakers is a retaliation. Blame the cause, not the retaliation. Confrontation is nothing new either, I've read stuff in the paper years, even decades ago about have a go heroes or some elderly person (protected by the vulnerability of their age) challenging someone succssfully, because beating up a frail old lady is very likely to end up worse for the perpetrator than conceding they shouldn't have been doing what they are being challenged about. There is risk of course, one or two have a go heroes have been killed.

Don't want confrontation? Don't be a tea double you eh tea. It has worked wonderfully for me all my life.

It may not be a culture of challenging things you don’t like today, but tomorrow it will be, it’s the natural progression. We already see elements of it over things like parking, some people wanting to dissuade people from using certain footpaths, photography in public places, et cetera. That’s not an atmosphere I wish to co-exist with.

Rule enforcement is for people in positions of authority, not the average joe on the street, whether they’re elderly and frail or whatever.

As for not wearing a mask being selfish, I have already cut out pretty much everything enjoyable from my life for coming up to a year, either voluntarily or by way of things being closed or restricted, essentially for the benefit of others more so than for myself. Pretty much the only place I’m likely to contract Covid is thus at work. As thanks for all that I potentially get shamed for refusing to strap a mouldy bacteria-laden piece of cloth over my face in a shop, which is not proven to have any benefit whatsoever apart from "reassure" a minority of people. If people don’t like it, keep a few feet away, it’s not difficult.

 

[yorkie]

West Mercia Police claim that people have to have certificates of face covering exemption:

I was confronted by covid health officers on Thursday the 10th December @ approx. 18:45ish, in Sainsburys Hereford. The staff were not to blame for this and showed very good professionalism in my view. The security guard had his body cam on all the time. I was subsequently arrested for failing to provide my personal details for follow up as i did not have an Exemption for not wearing a mask. I showed a screen shot/pic of my exemption but was accused of using a screen shot and not providing an original. Note it was from the .Gov website for exemptions. The arresting officer PC 3820 RICHARD DAVIS (and Council Enforcement officer NEIL SMITH) did not accept this. This is what i went through.

I do not expect West Mercia Police will conduct a disciplinary investigation against Mr Davis, because I have lost faith in police forces to do anything about rogue police officers; in fact listening to the full transcript the whole chain of command in this case is rotten, right up to the Chief Inspector.

I don't understand how the police can get away with behaving like this; I wouldn't be able to in my job! Why is the bar for police officers set so low?

 

[Reliablebeam]

I'm getting the distinct impression that Northern and Midlands based police forces seem to be taking the most zealous line on mask enforcement? Some of these actions will lead to a payout, courtesy of that mug, the council tax payer. The actual officers of course escape any censure. I would normally be more in the police corner, but I am coming over to the view of many that they seem to have far too much time and enthusiasm for corona enforcement, and not enough for proper police work. Presumably this is easier??

 

[DB]

Has it been shown scientifically that masks make no difference to the risk of transmission in indoor spaces?

It is not a culture of challenging things you don't like, it is a culture of challenging the selfish, thoughtless and entitled. The reason we have a culture of challenging is because there are too many people who have an entitlement attitude to break rules they personally don't like because they think they can get away with it, regardless of whether doing so externalises risk or consequence onto others. It happens with motoring offences all the time, it is nothing new. There wouldn't be any desire to call people out if people followed the rules, so it is the rule breakers you should be against, they are the primary cause, the confrontation of rule breakers is a retaliation. Blame the cause, not the retaliation. Confrontation is nothing new either, I've read stuff in the paper years, even decades ago about have a go heroes or some elderly person (protected by the vulnerability of their age) challenging someone succssfully, because beating up a frail old lady is very likely to end up worse for the perpetrator than conceding they shouldn't have been doing what they are being challenged about. There is risk of course, one or two have a go heroes have been killed.

Don't want confrontation? Don't be a tea double you eh tea. It has worked wonderfully for me all my life.

It is down to those claiming that masks work to prove it, and they have failed to do so. Anyone not understanding the basics of how scienctific disciplines evaluate hypotheses has a pretty weak grasp of science.

And just for clarification, are you saying that by not wearing a mask I am 'selfish, thoughtful and entitled' and a '****', because that certainly seems to be what you are implying.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is not to discuss the rights or wrongs of mandating masks.

Rightly or wrongly, this is what the Government website states regarding face coverings:

[Withdrawn] [Withdrawn] Face coverings: when to wear one, exemptions and what makes a good one

www.gov.uk

Please be mindful and respectful of such circumstances, noting that some people are less able to wear face coverings, and that the reasons for this may not be visible to others.

This includes (but is not limited to):

• children under the age of 11 (Public Health England does not recommend face coverings for children under the age of 3 for health and safety reasons)
• people who cannot put on, wear or remove a face covering because of a physical or mental illness or impairment, or disability
• where putting on, wearing or removing a face covering will cause you severe distress
• if you are speaking to or providing assistance to someone who relies on lip reading, clear sound or facial expressions to communicate
• to avoid harm or injury, or the risk of harm or injury, to yourself or others ‒ including if it would negatively impact on your ability to exercise or participate in a strenuous activity
• police officers and other emergency workers, given that this may interfere with their ability to serve the public

There are also scenarios where you are permitted to remove a face covering:

• if asked to do so in a bank, building society, or post office for identification
• if asked to do so by shop staff or relevant employees for identification, for assessing health recommendations (for example by a pharmacist), or for age identification purposes including when buying age restricted products such as alcohol
• if required in order to receive treatment or services, for example when getting a facial
• in order to take medication
• if you are delivering a sermon or prayer in a place or worship
• if you are the persons getting married in a relevant place
• if you are aged 11 to 18 attending a faith school and having lessons in a place of worship as part of your core curriculum
• if you are undertaking exercise or an activity and it would negatively impact your ability to do so
• if you are an elite sports person, professional dancer or referee acting in the course of your employment
• when seated to eat or drink in a hospitality premise such as a pub, bar, restaurant or cafe. You must put a face covering back on once you finish eating or drinking

Exemption cards​

If you have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering:

• you do not routinely need to show any written evidence of this
• you do not need show an exemption card

This means that you do not need to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about your reason for not wearing a face covering.

However, some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.

Carrying an exemption card or badge is a personal choice and is not required by law.

If you wish to use an exemption card or badge, you can download exemption card templates. You can then print these yourself or show them on a mobile device. Please note that the government is not able to provide physical exemption cards or badges.

The police cannot demand to see any proof of exemption.

 

[Bantamzen]

West Mercia Police claim that people have to have certificates of face covering exemption:

I do not expect West Mercia Police will conduct a disciplinary investigation against Mr Davis, because I have lost faith in police forces to do anything about rogue police officers; in fact listening to the full transcript the whole chain of command in this case is rotten, right up to the Chief Inspector.

I don't understand how the police can get away with behaving like this; I wouldn't be able to in my job! Why is the bar for police officers set so low?

I find it somewhat ironic that the officer making the arrest spent the entire time fiddling with his poorly fitted mask.

 

[bramling]

West Mercia Police claim that people have to have certificates of face covering exemption:

I do not expect West Mercia Police will conduct a disciplinary investigation against Mr Davis, because I have lost faith in police forces to do anything about rogue police officers; in fact listening to the full transcript the whole chain of command in this case is rotten, right up to the Chief Inspector.

I don't understand how the police can get away with behaving like this; I wouldn't be able to in my job! Why is the bar for police officers set so low?

I find it somewhat ironic that the officer making the arrest spent the entire time fiddling with his poorly fitted mask.

Once again a pretty disgusting performance, and again one which will lead police to losing respect from the wider population. They should know better.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Once again a pretty disgusting performance, and again one which will lead police to losing respect from the wider population. They should know better.

I have every respect for police officers enforcing the law.
I have no respect whatsoever for an officer who tries to enforce his/her version of what they think the law should say.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I have every respect for police officers enforcing the law.
I have no respect whatsoever for an officer who tries to enforce his/her version of what they think the law should say.

Which leads to private citizens thinking they can do the same.

 

[duncanp]

Which leads to private citizens thinking they can do the same.

Especially when Cressida Dick****, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, encourages them to do so.

 

[bramling]

Which leads to private citizens thinking they can do the same.

And this is what really worries me going forward. Awful though it may be at the time to be on the receiving end of it, there's comeback against a misguided police officer, and despite the videos we've seen in this thread they are still rare. By contrast the last thing we need is curtain twitching and people enforcing *their* own "version" of the law, which in reality will accord with their own personal preferences and dispreferences. Plenty of railway enthusiasts will no doubt have found themselves on the receiving end of that for a start.

Especially when Cressida Dick****, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, encourages them to do so.

She should know better, especially with her history. How she ever managed to get her current job is completely beyond me.

 

[duncanp]

She should know better, especially with her history. How she ever managed to get her current job is completely beyond me.

I think she ticks several boxes on the "diversity and inclusion" agenda, if I can put it politely.

 

[bramling]

I think she ticks several boxes on the "diversity and inclusion" agenda, if I can put it politely.

I did wonder that, but surely her track record and notoriety should have sounded a cautionary note? Stockwell was a shambles, and it wasn't just the shooting (which one *could* forgive her given the situation) - there were other things too, not least the way some stories seemed to do the rounds afterwards which turned out to be completely untrue. I've always strongly suspected she was involved in elements of that.

To be frank I had to do a serious double-take when her name resurfaced. *Surely* not the same person?...

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think she ticks several boxes on the "diversity and inclusion" agenda, if I can put it politely.

I think that hits the nail on the head.

I did wonder that, but surely her track record and notoriety should have sounded a cautionary note? Stockwell was a shambles, and it wasn't just the shooting (which one *could* forgive her given the situation) - there were other things too, not least the way some stories seemed to do the rounds afterwards which turned out to be completely untrue. I've always strongly suspected she was involved in elements of that.

To be frank I had to do a serious double-take when her name resurfaced. *Surely* not the same person?...

How she wasn't forced into a desk job or early retirement after the de Menezes shooting is laughable and anyone's guess.

 

[Ken_Ilworth]

Once again a pretty disgusting performance, and again one which will lead police to losing respect from the wider population. They should know better.

I can only agree, having watched the entire >20min video. After a quick internet persual, to me, West Mercia appear to be very enthusiastic enforcers of guidance/regulations - and sometimes the law.
I also noticed this story on the BBC website, from about a month ago:

Covid-19: West Mercia Police issues third of face mask fines

West Mercia has issued fines totalling £11,400 since use became mandatory in England amid the pandemic.

www.bbc.com

"A third of police fines for not wearing face masks since use became mandatory were issued by the West Mercia force, figures reveal"

 

[greyman42]

I can only agree, having watched the entire >20min video. After a quick internet persual, to me, West Mercia appear to be very enthusiastic enforcers of guidance/regulations - and sometimes the law.
I also noticed this story on the BBC website, from about a month ago:

Covid-19: West Mercia Police issues third of face mask fines

West Mercia has issued fines totalling £11,400 since use became mandatory in England amid the pandemic.

www.bbc.com

"A third of police fines for not wearing face masks since use became mandatory were issued by the West Mercia force, figures reveal"

I wonder how many of the fines were paid?

 

[DB]

I wonder how many of the fines were paid?

And how many were successfully challenged.