Return to Education

[DB]

As mentioned previously, school leadership teams are absolutely desperate to not to have their schools sited as the source of an outbreak.

But certain parts of the media would love to be able to run headlines showing that schools are a problem - but none of them have. This does rather indicate a lack of evidence - and I am sure that there are those who will have actively looked for evidence, too.

 

[sjpowermac]

OK, so what part has education played in the spread? Well on the face of it one conclusion could be that the return to it played a significant part. However education wasn't the only factor in both the spread & detection, with the end of summer there were a lot more interactions in workplaces, sporting events, more stores being open, pubs, restaurants, plus of course deteriorating weather. Add to that increased and more focused testing and any number of factors might come into play in determining what factors affect spread the most. And in all honesty we could speculate from now until the cows come home, without more data from areas like track & trace we can do no more than guess.

I didn’t read these threads for several months but it didn’t take me long to find you opining sarcastically about pubs here:

Well everybody knows that pubs that have been running to a fraction of capacity, with table service, seating only often time limited with booking required in advance is the main source of spread.

and on the masks thread here:

Pubs and restaurants opened back in July, with no apparent upturn immediately after.

But now because it fits your narrative you are happy to say that hospitality might have been a factor in the spread of the virus. I seem to recall pubs/restaurants/‘non-essential’ retail being open in the early part of the summer.

You are quite right though, there’s no data to discuss, because it’s in everybody’s interest to pretend that children sat in close proximity all day long isn’t spreading the virus.

But certain parts of the media would love to be able to run headlines showing that schools are a problem - but none of them have. This does rather indicate a lack of evidence - and I am sure that there are those who will have actively looked for evidence, too.

I’m not sure that this is true, the narrative in the media has moved on considerably from the spring/summer.

The only organisations that might have an interest in this are the teaching unions and they are worse than useless.

An example of just how useless the teaching unions are has been allowing schools to get away with not even ensuring all teachers have a staff room to eat their lunch in. The railway unions quite rightly protested when social distancing of mess rooms resulted in rail staff sitting in trains stabled at stations. The result was First Class lounges, Portacabins and even hotels being commandeered to provide mess facilities: compare and contrast.

 

[Bantamzen]

I didn’t read these threads for several months but it didn’t take me long to find you opining sarcastically about pubs here:

and on the masks thread here:

But now because it fits your narrative you are happy to say that hospitality might have been a factor in the spread of the virus. I seem to recall pubs/restaurants/‘non-essential’ retail being open in the early part of the summer.

You are quite right though, there’s no data to discuss, because it’s in everybody’s interest to pretend that children sat in close proximity all day long isn’t spreading the virus.

Hold on, I am not the one trying to lay blame on one area of society or.another. My point above is that the virus will spread regardless of what punitive measures like shutting pubs or kicking kids out of school are taken.

Viruses spread, they have been doing this for almost as long as cellular life has existed. Its time as a society that we relearned this instead of the ridiculous merry-go-round of blaming & shaming.

Edit: Just as an aside, and perfect demonstration, I have had a heavy head cold for the last week or so. This despite both my wife and I hardly having been out save the occasional shop, wearing masks and using sanitisers. It is almost as if the virus that triggered my cold couldn't care less about our restrictions.

 

[sjpowermac]

Hold on, I am not the one trying to lay blame on one area of society or.another. My point above is that the virus will spread regardless of what punitive measures like shutting pubs or kicking kids out of school are taken.

Viruses spread, they have been doing this for almost as long as cellular life has existed. Its time as a society that we relearned this instead of the ridiculous merry-go-round of blaming & shaming.

I’ve been very consistent in saying that I believe that schools should remain open and that they should have re-opened sooner.

You always seem to shrink from owning posts that you’ve made previously...

I hear what you are saying about the virus spreading, I think that’s self-evident. In relation to this, I’ve seen quotes that claim the natural R rate for the virus is around 3, currently it’s around 1. Do you dispute those figures or do you think that the measures the government have put in place have stopped the virus spreading? For the avoidance of doubt, I make no representation as to the desirability or otherwise of the restrictions.

The reason that I ask is that if schools are actually major spreaders, other restrictions would seem a bit pointless.

 

[Richard Scott]

I hear what you are saying about the virus spreading, I think that’s self-evident. In relation to this, I’ve seen quotes that claim the natural R rate for the virus is around 3, currently it’s around 1.

I thought the natural R rate was about 1.5? Don't forget this rate would be where no-one has been infected. As more and more become infected there are fewer people to get infected so R rate is bound to drop as virus will find it more difficult to find a new host.

 

[DB]

I’ve been very consistent in saying that I believe that schools should remain open and that they should have re-opened sooner.

You always seem to shrink from owning posts that you’ve made previously...

I hear what you are saying about the virus spreading, I think that’s self-evident. In relation to this, I’ve seen quotes that claim the natural R rate for the virus is around 3, currently it’s around 1. Do you dispute those figures or do you think that the measures the government have put in place have stopped the virus spreading? For the avoidance of doubt, I make no representation as to the desirability or otherwise of the restrictions.

The reason that I ask is that if schools are actually major spreaders, other restrictions would seem a bit pointless.

If the measures were reducing the R rate, then logically the spread would be less in countries with the strongest restrictions. In reality there has been no pattern of this sort visible - most of the countries with the highest rates are also ones with some of the strongest restrictions.

 

[Bantamzen]

I’ve been very consistent in saying that I believe that schools should remain open and that they should have re-opened sooner.

You always seem to shrink from owning posts that you’ve made previously...

I hear what you are saying about the virus spreading, I think that’s self-evident. In relation to this, I’ve seen quotes that claim the natural R rate for the virus is around 3, currently it’s around 1. Do you dispute those figures or do you think that the measures the government have put in place have stopped the virus spreading? For the avoidance of doubt, I make no representation as to the desirability or otherwise of the restrictions.

The reason that I ask is that if schools are actually major spreaders, other restrictions would seem a bit pointless.

I don't think I am shrinking from any posts, but you are entitled to your opinion. As for the actual spread, without consistent national testing which we don't have, it will be all but impossible to be anywhere near sure what the rate really is. I am almost certain the virus was in circulation as early as December, and in my area. But most of the modelling ignored any possibility of earlier spread, and assumed a much higher mortality rate. So as any analyst will tell you, crap in, crap out. Which is why I would like to see a lot more data in order to make a more considered estimate as to where we might be, not the outdated, inaccurate models from SAGE.

And you may be aware that my personal opinion on restrictions and I really haven't shifted on these. Given the nature of viruses, and their ability to spread regardless of pressures on them, I firmly believe that restrictions are less than useless and that we should have always been concentrating on protecting the vulnerable, not making knee jerk reactions to secure votes for politicians.

 

[sjpowermac]

I don't think I am shrinking from any posts, but you are entitled to your opinion. As for the actual spread, without consistent national testing which we don't have, it will be all but impossible to be anywhere near sure what the rate really is. I am almost certain the virus was in circulation as early as December, and in my area. But most of the modelling ignored any possibility of earlier spread, and assumed a much higher mortality rate. So as any analyst will tell you, crap in, crap out. Which is why I would like to see a lot more data in order to make a more considered estimate as to where we might be, not the outdated, inaccurate models from SAGE.

And you may be aware that my personal opinion on restrictions and I really haven't shifted on these. Given the nature of viruses, and their ability to spread regardless of pressures on them, I firmly believe that restrictions are less than useless and that we should have always been concentrating on protecting the vulnerable, not making knee jerk reactions to secure votes for politicians.

Again, I hear what you are saying and repeat that I make no representation one way or the other, I was just genuinely interested to hear your take.

I do feel that the current situation with large numbers of students isolating is absolutely tragic. It would certainly have been helpful one way or the other if more data were available on the role that schools are/are not playing in the pandemic.

By the way, it’s great to see that some fellow members of your echo chamber have joined the thread!

I thought the natural R rate was about 1.5? Don't forget this rate would be where no-one has been infected. As more and more become infected there are fewer people to get infected so R rate is bound to drop as virus will find it more difficult to find a new host.

If the measures were reducing the R rate, then logically the spread would be less in countries with the strongest restrictions. In reality there has been no pattern of this sort visible - most of the countries with the highest rates are also ones with some of the strongest restrictions.

I’ve spent the past months valiantly doing my bit to get the country moving again, so many thanks for the updates

I was sure SAGE had mentioned an R of 3, but I remember enough of the threads from the summer to know their words are heresy in these parts!

 

[DB]

I was sure SAGE had mentioned an R of 3, but I remember enough of the threads from the summer to know their words are heresy in these parts!

Given how many of their figuures have proved unreliable, is it so surprising that they are now treated with scepticism?

 

[Bantamzen]

Again, I hear what you are saying and repeat that I make no representation one way or the other, I was just genuinely interested to hear your take.

I do feel that the current situation with large numbers of students isolating is absolutely tragic. It would certainly have been helpful one way or the other if more data were available on the role that schools are/are not playing in the pandemic.

Its more than tragic, it is a national, nay global scandal. Our children's future should not be compromised simply because politicians got spooked by some experts saying that they might be a source of spread. I have a 14 year old niece who has found the last 9 months very difficult and it has had a serious effect on her progress. I am far too aware of what any kind of disruption can have on kids, as 15 year old my so-called father up left the family leaving us emotionally & financially crippled. That had a devastating and long term effect on me, I bombed most of the 'O' levels I was studying for, getting only half of what I was on course for. I tried to pick up the pieces in sixth form, but the financial strain grew too great and I eventually had to pull the plug and seek a career.

It breaks my heart to think what effect this year is going to have on tens of thousands, maybe even millions of kids in the coming years. The cost to them has been way too much, and when the worst finally passes I for one will be making sure I do not forget those who called for & enacted such things.

By the way, it’s great to see that some fellow members of your echo chamber have joined the thread!

I don't speak for anyone other than myself. If other people have similar views, it is because they have reached those conclusions for themselves.

Given how many of their figuures have proved unreliable, is it so surprising that they are now treated with scepticism?

SAGE's future role as an advisory body needs to be reviewed. They have opted for using worst case scenarios publicly, and found a government so intellectually inept so as to swallow them whole & act on them as if they were inevitable. A more rounded, competent government would have thanked them for their input, asked for the middle ground scenarios and worked along those lines.

 

[yorkie]

I have no respect for SAGE, but the natural R value of around 3 without any immunity or mitigations in place was widely published and I don't think SAGE came up with it

Those who want to shut schools are perhaps lacking in intelligence or don't care about the well-being of young people or maybe both. Closing schools isn't a mainstream view really; it's the sort of thing a highly vocal minority of attention-seeking, hysterical activists who use social media are shouting about.

As for cases in schools, I'm not aware of any at my local school being transmitted within school but of course it's difficult to know where transmission occurs. I was surprised at how few cases led to other cases being picked up. Do bear in mind that if a friend of a student caught the virus from them you wouldn't know if it was transmitted in school or out of school.

Schools have imposed ludicrously wasteful procedures at the request of Government, yet out of the school building there is nothing to stop them playfighting, hugging etc (and nor could there be). Also students who are actually ill (which usually means they have a different virus) tend to be kept home until they have tested negative.

Of those testing positive, I don't like to ask them what symptoms they had for obvious reasons but those who volunteered that information without me asking, had mild or no symptoms.

If a lot of youngsters have the virus, as claimed, then a huge proportion must be asymptomatic; after all you are not usually supposed to get a test if you have no symptoms (though that is changing in some areas)

The claim that hysterical people make, that children are in danger, is utterly absurd; by that logic all road transport should cease as deemed too dangerous!

 

[Richard Scott]

I have no respect for SAGE, but the natural R value of around 3 without any immunity or mitigations in place was widely published and I don't think SAGE came up with it.

The claim that hysterical people make, that children are in danger, is utterly absurd; by that logic all road transport should cease as deemed too dangerous!

Don't know where I got 1.5 from then?
Sadly a youngster in our local area did get hit by a bus and, although he survived, it has changed his life. None have had any long term effects from the virus.

 

[duncanp]

Those who want to shut schools are perhaps lacking in intelligence or don't care about the well-being of young people or maybe both. Closing schools isn't a mainstream view really; it's the sort of thing a highly vocal minority of attention-seeking, hysterical activists who use social media are shouting about.

As for cases in schools, I'm not aware of any at my local school being transmitted within school but of course it's difficult to know where transmission occurs. I was surprised at how few cases led to other cases being picked up. Do bear in mind that if a friend of a student caught the virus from them you wouldn't know if it was transmitted in school or out of school.

Whilst I don't think it is a good idea to have a blanket and indefinite closure of schools and colleges, you cannot ignore the fact that the increase in COVID-19 cases started when schools returned in September, and really took off when universities returned in early October.

Of course closing schools has a detrimental effect on children and young people. But closing down vast sectors of the economy in order to keep schools open has an equally detrimental effect on those who work in the affected sectors, and their customers.

Whilst no-one who tests positive can tell exactly where they picked up the virus, it is somewhat naive to pretend that there is no transmission of the virus in schools, as some local authorities seem to be doing.

I think schools need to adapt as best they can, which may involve on line learning some of the time, some form of separating year groups, mass testing of pupils, teachers and staff to try and pick up asymptomatic cases, and perhaps even classes on Saturday mornings as happens in France. There also needs to be agreed procedures in place so that a whole year group isn't sent home just because one pupil or teacher coughs or feels unwell.

Some of these changes might not go down well with some people.

But why should schools carry on regardless and expect the rest of the country to suffer hardship just to protect them.

 

[Richard Scott]

Whilst I don't think it is a good idea to have a blanket and indefinite closure of schools and colleges, you cannot ignore the fact that the increase in COVID-19 cases started when schools returned in September, and really took off when universities returned in early October.

Of course closing schools has a detrimental effect on children and young people. But closing down vast sectors of the economy in order to keep schools open has an equally detrimental effect on those who work in the affected sectors, and their customers.

Whilst no-one who tests positive can tell exactly where they picked up the virus, it is somewhat naive to pretend that there is no transmission of the virus in schools, as some local authorities seem to be doing.

I think schools need to adapt as best they can, which may involve on line learning some of the time, some form of separating year groups, mass testing of pupils, teachers and staff to try and pick up asymptomatic cases, and perhaps even classes on Saturday mornings as happens in France. There also needs to be agreed procedures in place so that a whole year group isn't sent home just because one pupil or teacher coughs or feels unwell.

Some of these changes might not go down well with some people.

But why should schools carry on regardless and expect the rest of the country to suffer hardship just to protect them.

Perhaps shouldn't be closing any of these things. It's just finger pointing with no real evidence.

 

[Bantamzen]

Whilst I don't think it is a good idea to have a blanket and indefinite closure of schools and colleges, you cannot ignore the fact that the increase in COVID-19 cases started when schools returned in September, and really took off when universities returned in early October.

There were lots of other things happening in September, not just schools returning. One of the significant changes was the ramping up in testing, specifically in areas that higher rates, and guess what they found? It actually suggests that the virus itself might have been more widespread than initially believed, and this was revealed by testing more.

Of course closing schools has a detrimental effect on children and young people. But closing down vast sectors of the economy in order to keep schools open has an equally detrimental effect on those who work in the affected sectors, and their customers.

Both have detrimental effects, and neither actually works in stopping the spread. At best it delays it slightly.

Whilst no-one who tests positive can tell exactly where they picked up the virus, it is somewhat naive to pretend that there is no transmission of the virus in schools, as some local authorities seem to be doing.

Just as it is naive to think that masks worn in non-medical settings without any of the strict protocols that the latter insist on will have any real effect. You might also note as has been pointed out previously in the mask thread, across many countries detection rates seem to actually increase when masks are applied in public settings.

I think schools need to adapt as best they can, which may involve on line learning some of the time, some form of separating year groups, mass testing of pupils, teachers and staff to try and pick up asymptomatic cases, and perhaps even classes on Saturday mornings as happens in France. There also needs to be agreed procedures in place so that a whole year group isn't sent home just because one pupil or teacher coughs or feels unwell.

Online learning cannot replace much of the practical lessons, and for certain does not replace the important interactions and social learning kids get from mixing with their peers, learning the importance of following teachers instructions / guidance. These are vital social skills to help them prepare for the world that lies ahead of them, which is why we have schools. Otherwise we would have been having kids sat at home with a few books.

Some of these changes might not go down well with some people.

But why should schools carry on regardless and expect the rest of the country to suffer hardship just to protect them.

The rest of the country shouldn't, we should be getting back to it and accepting that all these daft political mitigations are all being ignored by the virus. Which should not be a surprise.

 

[yorkie]

Whilst I don't think it is a good idea to have a blanket and indefinite closure of schools and colleges, you cannot ignore the fact that the increase in COVID-19 cases started when schools returned in September, and really took off when universities returned in early October.

Are you saying this is not a seasonal virus?

Of course closing schools has a detrimental effect on children and young people. But closing down vast sectors of the economy in order to keep schools open has an equally detrimental effect on those who work in the affected sectors, and their customers.

Can you clarify your argument? Is your argument to close schools in order to keep sectors of the economy that have been closed, such as pubs, restaurants etc open?

Whilst no-one who tests positive can tell exactly where they picked up the virus, it is somewhat naive to pretend that there is no transmission of the virus in schools, as some local authorities seem to be doing.

Is anyone actually pretending there is no transmission of the virus in schools? The concluision I would reach is that there is less transmission than one would expect, but it's a virus so transmission is going to occur potentially anywhere. The claim is that there is a lot of transmission in school, but I am not seeing much evidence of this. That doesn't mean any of us are arguing there is no transmission at all.

I think schools need to adapt as best they can, which may involve on line learning some of the time

This isn't an acceptable solution at primary or secondary level.

some form of separating year groups

You must have missed most of the discussion on schools as this is already being done

mass testing of pupils, teachers and staff to try and pick up asymptomatic cases

This is already starting to be rolled out in Tier 3 areas

and perhaps even classes on Saturday mornings as happens in France.

Good luck with that!

There also needs to be agreed procedures in place so that a whole year group isn't sent home just because one pupil or teacher coughs or feels unwell.

There are! The vast majority of schools have staff who have to spend a lot of time whenever any student is tested positive, working out exactly where they were sat and who they were with.

Some of these changes might not go down well with some people.

Some of what you say is already happening, and some isn't practicable.

But why should schools carry on regardless and expect the rest of the country to suffer hardship just to protect them.

Can you name any school that is "carrying on regardless"?

 

[hwl]

Are you saying this is not a seasonal virus?

Can you clarify your argument? Is your argument to close schools in order to keep sectors of the economy that have been closed, such as pubs, restaurants etc open?

Is anyone actually pretending there is no transmission of the virus in schools? The conclusion I would reach is that there is less transmission than one would expect, but it's a virus so transmission is going to occur potentially anywhere. The claim is that there is a lot of transmission in school, but I am not seeing much evidence of this. That doesn't mean any of us are arguing there is no transmission at all.

All the other long standing human corona viruses are seasonal and the work on Covid so far shows it prefers winter conditions albeit slightly lower than typical UK winter humidity.

Keeping schools open helps most of the rest of the economy.

Transmission of the virus is known to be very uneven (high k factor) with ~70% of people not giving it to anyone else, ~10% to one other person and ~20% to two or more other people. what we really need to understand is that latter 20% category. Unsurprisingly most people on this thread report an outcome in the 70% bracket!

Hence most of the time you would expect no onward transmission.

Circa 60% of transmission is within households or care home etc. (and virtually unstoppable without vaccination) hence overall non household transmission numbers will appear comparatively low but are hugely significant in the household to household spread which is what all the restrictions are about.

The reported significantly higher case levels in under 18 in Kent, Essex, NE and SE London suggest that transmission is happening in those age groups, but is it in school, on the way to /from school or elsewhere?

As with other non household environment transmission the UK government has been distinctly lacking in decent research. What is needed is school testing in high under 18 case rate areas with samples for 4 testing types:
a) lateral flow tests (quick results and takes ~60% of positive cases out of circulation quickly)
b) PCR for better results but 24-48hours later
c) antibody test (to see who had it previously)
d) virus sequencing to see whether the strains are the same in different people to check if A could have given it to B or not. (E.g. how the new "Kent" strain was found and PHE do this on a small subset of swabs already.)

Analyse the data collected properly and attempt backward tracing.

Repeat with case studies for other non household environments.

duncanp said:

and perhaps even classes on Saturday mornings as happens in France.

Good luck with that!

Westminster and Eton seem to have quite a bit of luck with that!

 

[kristiang85]

Ofsted have released a third report on effects of isolation rules on children. It is pretty sobering reading. The whole thing can be found here https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-and-welfare-particularly-the-most-vulnerable But the summary is:

Repeated isolation has chipped away at the progress pupils have made since returning to school in September
The effectiveness of remote education is varied and difficult to determine
Children arriving at secure children’s homes are, in effect, put into solitary confinement
Many children with special education needs and/or disabilities (SEND) are not attending school, are struggling with remote learning and are at risk of abuse or neglect.
Even more schools report at least one child now being home schooled. Many parents doing this say their children will not return to school ‘until pandemic is over’

This isn't COVID-19 doing this to them. This is government policy. And the after effects could well affect many of them into the long term.

Presumably this will stay hidden away on he government website and not really talked about, though.

 

[sjpowermac]

Its more than tragic, it is a national, nay global scandal. Our children's future should not be compromised simply because politicians got spooked by some experts saying that they might be a source of spread. I have a 14 year old niece who has found the last 9 months very difficult and it has had a serious effect on her progress. I am far too aware of what any kind of disruption can have on kids, as 15 year old my so-called father up left the family leaving us emotionally & financially crippled. That had a devastating and long term effect on me, I bombed most of the 'O' levels I was studying for, getting only half of what I was on course for. I tried to pick up the pieces in sixth form, but the financial strain grew too great and I eventually had to pull the plug and seek a career.

It breaks my heart to think what effect this year is going to have on tens of thousands, maybe even millions of kids in the coming years. The cost to them has been way too much, and when the worst finally passes I for one will be making sure I do not forget those who called for & enacted such things.


I don't speak for anyone other than myself. If other people have similar views, it is because they have reached those conclusions for themselves.


SAGE's future role as an advisory body needs to be reviewed. They have opted for using worst case scenarios publicly, and found a government so intellectually inept so as to swallow them whole & act on them as if they were inevitable. A more rounded, competent government would have thanked them for their input, asked for the middle ground scenarios and worked along those lines.

I think what you are saying there is that you agree with me that schools should remain open and that something needs to be done about the numbers missing time due to isolating.

As an aside, thinking of the school your niece goes to, will you be sending them an email to thank them for all their hard work this past term?

Don't know where I got 1.5 from then?

It seems like you got that bit wrong...

Bad decision if it happens...

The Department for Education (DfE) is expected to make an announcement on Thursday over a potential delayed start for secondary schools.

Start of school term after Christmas could be delayed

Teaching unions have called for children to be taught online for at least a week in January

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Mojo]

Yet again on the last teaching day of term for most students the government has rushed out a plan to delay the return to school for most secondary school students. Still short on actual detail, but teachers have been asked if they will facilitate testing, to which most, unsurprisingly, have declined.

 

[adc82140]

Yet again on the last teaching day of term for most students the government has rushed out a plan to delay the return to school for most secondary school students. Still short on actual detail, but teachers have been asked if they will facilitate testing, to which most, unsurprisingly, have declined.

This is a rare case where agree with the teaching unions. I won't allow some well meaning member of the PTA or indeed a teacher to conduct a covid test on my son. It's an invasive medical procedure, and can cause damage if done improperly. It's safe for an adult to self test because your natural reflexes will stop you doing anything wrong. The current testing stations are staffed by trained healthcare professionals or military personnel with the right training.

This isn't a dig at teachers. I equally wouldn't trust my local practice nurse to teach Geography.

 

[Mojo]

This is a rare case where agree with the teaching unions. I won't allow some well meaning member of the PTA or indeed a teacher to conduct a covid test on my son. It's an invasive medical procedure, and can cause damage if done improperly. It's safe for an adult to self test because your natural reflexes will stop you doing anything wrong. The current testing stations are staffed by trained healthcare professionals or military personnel with the right training.

Absolutely agreed. Teachers aren't being trained in any sort of infection control and safety to protect themselves either; as seen by the incorrect and improper imposition of masks by senior leadership at most schools.

 

[sjpowermac]

This is a rare case where agree with the teaching unions. I won't allow some well meaning member of the PTA or indeed a teacher to conduct a covid test on my son. It's an invasive medical procedure, and can cause damage if done improperly. It's safe for an adult to self test because your natural reflexes will stop you doing anything wrong. The current testing stations are staffed by trained healthcare professionals or military personnel with the right training.

This isn't a dig at teachers. I equally wouldn't trust my local practice nurse to teach Geography.

It will be interesting to see how this one plays out, it’s certainly not something that I have even the remotest of interest in getting involved in!

Please accept my apologies for not including you in my earlier round-up, where I revisited posts that people had made in the late summer and asked them if they would like to admit how wrong they were. Here are your thoughts from August:

You know that children are not at risk. I know that children are not at risk. However, egged on by the media (social and mainstream) there is a subset of parents who do believe that their children could die if they are sent back to school. The irony being that a lack of education forms this sort of view.

I think it must have been an extremely small subset that you were referring to...

 

[adc82140]

It will be interesting to see how this one plays out, it’s certainly not something that I have even the remotest of interest in getting involved in!

Please accept my apologies for not including you in my earlier round-up, where I revisited posts that people had made in the late summer and asked them if they would like to admit how wrong they were. Here are your thoughts from August:

I think it must have been an extremely small subset that you were referring to...

Children are still not at risk. Children with no underlying conditions do not become seriously unwell with Covid. The perceived risk is however that they can carry and spread. This is debatable, and I wouldn't like to support or dismiss this theory. There are notably fewer parents on social media now than in the late summer who go on about their kids being in danger.

I can give you an example. I overheard a parent with her infant age kids masked up in September bemoaning the fact that she was made to send them to School "where they will catch Covid and could die". Fast forward to December. The kids are no longer masked. She wears a mask only when legally required to.

 

[Darandio]

Please accept my apologies for not including you in my earlier round-up, where I revisited posts that people had made in the late summer and asked them if they would like to admit how wrong they were. Here are your thoughts from August:

All you are doing here (and have done so for the last fortnight!) is sarcastically pick out certain members and bait them.

 

[sjpowermac]

Children are still not at risk. Children with no underlying conditions do not become seriously unwell with Covid. The perceived risk is however that they can carry and spread. This is debatable, and I wouldn't like to support or dismiss this theory. There are notably fewer parents on social media now than in the late summer who go on about their kids being in danger.

I can give you an example. I overheard a parent with her infant age kids masked up in September bemoaning the fact that she was made to send them to School "where they will catch Covid and could die". Fast forward to December. The kids are no longer masked. She wears a mask only when legally required to.

Err, so you’ve just posted the same things that I wrote in the summer about how unlikely it would be that children would not be at risk from the virus.

At least you have been honest in mentioning that you’ve seen fewer posts on this topic on social media.

The fact that schools fully re-opened in September and that attendance was actually very high is something that you’ve somehow forgotten to mention...

All you are doing here (and have done so for the last fortnight!) is sarcastically pick out certain members and bait them.

No, all I’ve done is to mention claims that people seemed to be very forthright about back in August and to see how well those claims stand up. Not very well has been the answer in all cases.

 

[kristiang85]

The fact that schools fully re-opened in September and that attendance was actually very high is something that you’ve somehow forgotten to mention...

It depends how attendance is measured. Absence from parents keeping the children at home vs the school imposing isolation on a class could come out with different figures, but I'm not sure how they are officially measured.

All I know is that half my colleagues in my team have children, and in a group meeting a couple of weeks back pretty much all of them were doing home-learning again as their classes had been given the isolation order due to a positive test somewhere - and this is in many different schools. Also I know a lot of teachers, and I don't know of any who haven't had two weeks of with their class since September.

So from my bystanding point of view, unless my circles have been particularly unlucky, I think attendance this term has been hit badly.

 

[Cowley]

I don’t want to start removing posts and sending messages to people, so can I remind everyone from this point to be respectful of each other and not be sarcastic, provocative or angry in your responses.
Any posts that don’t follow these forum rules will have to be deleted from the thread from now.
Thanks all.

 

[Darandio]

The fact that schools fully re-opened in September and that attendance was actually very high is something that you’ve somehow forgotten to mention...

Maybe they read the news and believed that not to be the case. Unless you have different figures to the media, I would say that 88% on school return isn't that high.

School figures show 88% of pupils were back for start of term

Most parents sent their children back to school but now Covid test shortages threaten attendance.

www.bbc.co.uk

The first official figures for school attendance in England for the autumn term show 88% of pupils went back.
This is a higher absence rate than the usual figure of about 5% but it is not broken down to show whether pupils were at home because of Covid outbreaks.
The figures show attendance last Thursday, based on responses from almost three quarters of state schools.
Since the reopening, school leaders have warned that delays in testing are leading to year groups being sent home.

Only a week after that report, attendance figures dipped a bit and cases of pupils being sent home were starting to rise.

Quadrupling in schools sending pupils home in Covid cases

School attendance figures for England show big rise in pupils sent home because of Covid-19 incidents.

www.bbc.co.uk

The number of schools in England sending home groups of pupils because of Covid-19 incidents has quadrupled in a week, according to the latest official figures.
Based on attendance last Thursday, they show 4% of schools not fully open because of confirmed or suspected cases - up from 1% the previous week.
This could mean about 900 schools sending home pupils.
Overall attendance has also dipped slightly from 88% to 87%.
This means over a million children were off school that day, whether from Covid-related or other reasons, with more pupils missing from secondary schools than primary.

Then in November it fell to only 78% attendance overall, with warnings it would worsen.

‘Collapse’ in secondary school attendance warning

Covid disruption worsens for England's secondary schools as 22% of pupils sent home.

www.bbc.co.uk

More than one in five secondary pupils in England missed school last week, with worsening Covid disruption.
The latest attendance figures show 22% of secondary pupils were missing, based on who was in school last Thursday - up from 17% the previous week.
The biggest teachers' union warned of a "collapse" in attendance, with almost three quarters of secondary schools sending home pupils.

Overall it improved into this month but some regions were hit hard with some only reaching 77%.

Coronavirus: School attendance plummeted after half-term in England

New data shows how schools across the country have been hit differently by Covid outbreaks.

www.bbc.co.uk

School attendance plummeted after half-term in England, with rates as low as 77% in one region, official data reveals.
The Department for Education statistics show how the spread of the coronavirus pandemic around the country has hit education in every region this term.
The West Midlands, Yorkshire and the North East took the biggest hit, before starting to recover in late November.
Now, schools in London and the South East are on a downward trajectory.

 

[sjpowermac]

It depends how attendance is measured. Absence from parents keeping the children at home vs the school imposing isolation on a class could come out with different figures, but I'm not sure how they are officially measured.

All I know is that half my colleagues in my team have children, and in a group meeting a couple of weeks back pretty much all of them were doing home-learning again as their classes had been given the isolation order due to a positive test somewhere - and this is in many different schools. Also I know a lot of teachers, and I don't know of any who haven't had two weeks of with their class since September.

So from my bystanding point of view, unless my circles have been particularly unlucky, I think attendance this term has been hit badly.

The poster claimed that attendance would be hit by parents keeping their children at home. That didn’t happen.

Now to your post. I’ve been consistent throughout in saying that it’s tragic that so much time has been lost through students having to isolate.

Would you be so kind as to explain why you attempt to use this as an argument against my post?

As a point of accuracy, could you clarify your statement:

...the school imposing isolation

Maybe they read the news and believed that not to be the case. Unless you have different figures to the media, I would say that 88% on school return isn't that high.

School figures show 88% of pupils were back for start of term

Most parents sent their children back to school but now Covid test shortages threaten attendance.

www.bbc.co.uk

Only a week after that report, attendance figures dipped a bit and cases of pupils being sent home were starting to rise.

Quadrupling in schools sending pupils home in Covid cases

School attendance figures for England show big rise in pupils sent home because of Covid-19 incidents.

www.bbc.co.uk

Then in November it fell to only 78% attendance overall, with warnings it would worsen.

‘Collapse’ in secondary school attendance warning

Covid disruption worsens for England's secondary schools as 22% of pupils sent home.

www.bbc.co.uk

Overall it improved into this month but some regions were hit hard with some only reaching 77%.

Coronavirus: School attendance plummeted after half-term in England

New data shows how schools across the country have been hit differently by Covid outbreaks.

www.bbc.co.uk

Even if your figures are accurate, 88% v 95% is hardly the mass stay at home that was being predicted. In addition, the article doesn’t say that the drop in attendance was due to parents keeping their children at home because they were frightened to send them.

Once again, regarding the subsequent fall in attendance due to isolation, you are arguing with the wrong person. I have been consistent in saying that I think it’s tragic that so much time has been missed.