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Butts

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Very true; it's easy to forget that the country is tipped up slightly compared to the normal map view. Edinburgh is further west than Carlisle!

For @Butts's benefit, here's the link to a replay of the actual route taken - which did indeed loop round the Forth Bridges:


Thanks :E
 
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Chester1

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Aren't the pre-clearance facilities at Shannon?

Yes but obviously the London/Manchester to Shannon market is considerably smaller than Dublin and an extension of US - Ireland services to the UK needs to be viable in its own right.
 

gsnedders

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Actually very common, you often get quieter flights with one or more of the 4 empty.

Ryanair just leave them empty, I guess Irish regs are different.
They've got in trouble about this before; it's a bit borderline, given you can debate whether those seated nearest fully understand how to open the doors, even with the briefing, when they haven't been able to see the doors during the briefing.
Quietest long-haul I've been on is a BA 747 back from Kuala Lumpur, it was basically a row of either 3 or 4 seats per person - the world's first flat beds in economy! :)

I've also been on a Thai 777 on a domestic with basically our coach tour's passengers and hardly anyone else - about 30 people and their luggage and a bit of fuel - it went like absolute stink.
As I've noted somewhere earlier in this thread, when the BA LHR-SJC (San Jose, California) flights started they were very premium heavy in their loadings (not particularly surprising; SJC is much less likely to have so much leisure travel, so it's more full of well-off big-tech people), such that in the early days economy was frequently no more than a quarter full. You were unlikely if you didn't get three seats (of the 3-3-3) to yourself! It meant you were much better off in economy than the (heavily loaded, with fixed arm rests) in premium economy!

I think the lowest loaded flight I've ever been on was a Fokker 100, AMS-LPI (Linköping, Sweden), on Boxing Day (or maybe a day or two later), with about 9 passengers on-board.
Aer Lingus service is subject to being granted an exemption from US department of Transport. IAG is majority owned by EU citizens in order to comply with EU law. Only companies that are majority owned by British or American shareholders have automatic right to use the US-UK Air Services Agreement. Aer Lingus has setup a UK subsidiary and applied for an exemption from this requirement to launch the Manchester service. I think BA is covered by grandfather rights.

In the long term Aer Lingus might be better tackling the UK-US market by extending its long haul Dublin services to UK using 5th freedom rights. It could sell US pre clearance in Dublin as an advantage and it wouldn't need to meet US or UK ownership requirements. Pre covid it had plenty of Dublin - US flights and Dublin - UK flights. It should be able to link some together.
As soon as you have to disembark at DUB, what's the advantage over a connecting flight? You've lost most of the advantage as soon as you have everyone having to get off (and they have to given pre-clearance and US customs requirements).
 

Chester1

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They've got in trouble about this before; it's a bit borderline, given you can debate whether those seated nearest fully understand how to open the doors, even with the briefing, when they haven't been able to see the doors during the briefing.

As I've noted somewhere earlier in this thread, when the BA LHR-SJC (San Jose, California) flights started they were very premium heavy in their loadings (not particularly surprising; SJC is much less likely to have so much leisure travel, so it's more full of well-off big-tech people), such that in the early days economy was frequently no more than a quarter full. You were unlikely if you didn't get three seats (of the 3-3-3) to yourself! It meant you were much better off in economy than the (heavily loaded, with fixed arm rests) in premium economy!

I think the lowest loaded flight I've ever been on was a Fokker 100, AMS-LPI (Linköping, Sweden), on Boxing Day (or maybe a day or two later), with about 9 passengers on-board.

As soon as you have to disembark at DUB, what's the advantage over a connecting flight? You've lost most of the advantage as soon as you have everyone having to get off (and they have to given pre-clearance and US customs requirements).

The advantage is being treated as a domestic passenger on arrival in the US. Its better to go through immigration and customs before taking a long haul flight than afterwards.
 

Elwyn

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The advantage is being treated as a domestic passenger on arrival in the US. Its better to go through immigration and customs before taking a long haul flight than afterwards.
Yes but you are adding a minimum of 2 hours, probably longer, to the journey time by having to disembark at Dublin, against a direct non-stop flight. And on any return flight to Dublin continuing to the UK, the airline can't carry CTA passengers joining at Dublin, if they have uncleared international passengers on board (bound for the UK). So they lose flexibility there.
 

Chester1

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Yes but you are adding a minimum of 2 hours, probably longer, to the journey time by having to disembark at Dublin, against a direct non-stop flight. And on any return flight to Dublin continuing to the UK, the airline can't carry CTA passengers joining at Dublin, if they have uncleared international passengers on board (bound for the UK). So they lose flexibility there.

Assuming they obtain a US exemption and the UK government allow Aer Lingus (UK) Limited to keep flying direct flights as a "British" airline. I doubt they will long term because of limitations on majority own British airlines flying in the EU. The boss of Ryanair has said recently that Brexit will cause IAG to be broken up (and prevent Ryanair flying non EU services). He might be right because despite the small number (and size) of majority British owned airlines politics will push the Govermment to reciprocate.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Aer Lingus service is subject to being granted an exemption from US department of Transport. IAG is majority owned by EU citizens in order to comply with EU law. Only companies that are majority owned by British or American shareholders have automatic right to use the US-UK Air Services Agreement. Aer Lingus has setup a UK subsidiary and applied for an exemption from this requirement to launch the Manchester service. I think BA is covered by grandfather rights.

In the long term Aer Lingus might be better tackling the UK-US market by extending its long haul Dublin services to UK using 5th freedom rights. It could sell US pre clearance in Dublin as an advantage and it wouldn't need to meet US or UK ownership requirements. Pre covid it had plenty of Dublin - US flights and Dublin - UK flights. It should be able to link some together.

The US DOJ has just this week approved the addition of Aer Lingus to the existing AA/BA trans-Atlantic joint venture. So it would appear the only thing preventing the services from starting would be if Aer Lingus gets cold feet. Longer-term we may yet see US pre-clearance facilities at MAN; provision for these is included in the airport redevelopment plans but I don't think financing has been finalised.
 

FQTV

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Yes but you are adding a minimum of 2 hours, probably longer, to the journey time by having to disembark at Dublin, against a direct non-stop flight. And on any return flight to Dublin continuing to the UK, the airline can't carry CTA passengers joining at Dublin, if they have uncleared international passengers on board (bound for the UK). So they lose flexibility there.

The idea is speculative anyway; at the moment the plan is for direct Manchester <> US flights using Aer Lingus aircraft and crew. As part of the Transatlantic joint venture and revenue sharing arrangements, all the parties are doing is using the cheapest aircraft and crew and divvying up the costs and revenue as normal. They’ll take into account the commercial attractiveness of the various brands that they have, but ultimately they’re pretty agnostic about what colour the plane that operates the route is.

Yield is low out of Manchester, but if you want to maintain a market position (and keep Delta and United out) then you do it in the cheapest way possible.

However, and as an alternative, and from Manchester and other UK airports, there will be the option of connecting through Dublin, with the Dublin <> UK services operated by their own shorthaul fleet or their franchisee (hitherto Stobart, soon to be Emerald).

If flying direct, there’s no immediate plan for preclearance to be any part of the offer.

If flying indirect, and as for the last few years, passengers would use the connection time (which they might otherwise spend at Heathrow, Amsterdam, Paris CDG etc.,) to go through preclearance and to save time by arriving as a de facto domestic passenger in the US.

In this case, then, it’s a competitive advantage over other connecting competitors, not necessarily one over a much faster direct flight.

In the case of the speculative idea of actually operating (say) Manchester > Dublin > Boston with the same aircraft and preclearing all Westbound passengers in Ireland, but not carrying shorthaul passengers across the Irish Sea, the economics would be challenging at best. If you were filling the plane out of Manchester anyway, but wanted to preclear, then you’d bet better doing it through Shannon (which is what British Airways did with its London City New York service).

There has been talk in the past of Manchester wanting to become a preclearance point for the US and, as it goes, also for Heathrow T5. It’s possible that current and forecast low passenger numbers and the extra space therefore available makes US preclearance at UK airports more likely than it has ever seemed.

All it needs is time, money and negotiation; after all, Abu Dhabi already has it, too.
 

Elwyn

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Pre-clearance certainly has many benefits both to passengers and airlines. From the airlines point of view it usually means inadmissible passengers are denied boarding which saves them the cost of bringing them back if refused entry on arrival (plus the associated detention costs which they are usually liable for). It also prevents people claiming asylum on arrival in the destination country. (If someone asks for asylum at US pre-clearance in Ireland, they are told to go and speak to the Irish immigration authorities, since they are currently in Ireland. Matter closed). That’s one of the reasons the UK has pre-clearance controls on Eurostar services from Brussels and Paris. It almost entirely eliminated asylum claims on those routes when it was introduced.
 

Elwyn

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Why hasn't Heathrow got the preclearance facilities already? Is it the cost of needing to have US staff at more than one terminal?
I can’t answer your question with any inside knowledge. I did work in that line of business many years ago but am way out of touch now. However I suspect it’s a combination of what you suggest (multiple location staffing and other cost implications) but possibly also operational constraints at Heathrow. If you set up a pre-clearance operation such as the US have at Dublin and Shannon you need a fairly significant dedicated passenger examination area, with interview rooms, waiting areas and back up offices. It may be that Heathrow Airport found that the benefits of having US pre-clearance were outweighed by the additional costs and loss of operational space. I really don’t know.

I recall that at Dublin & Shannon the US operation was pretty efficient, in terms of staffing resources. Nearly all outbound flights to the US depart between about 0800 and 1500, so they only needed one shift a day. If there was a flight after around 1500 (which was unusual) then it simply couldn’t have pre-clearance, because no-one was on duty. Though the pre-clearance staff were mostly US citizens, the majority were permanent residents in Ireland. (Married to Irish citizens or of Irish origins or having settled status by some other route). Only a few were on secondment from the US, so the costs of locating them in Ireland were dramatically reduced. I do not know what financial contribution the Irish Airport authority made to the operation, if any (though at the very least they will have provided the accommodation free I am sure).

Every day, the first flight from the US into Shannon used to bring a box of fresh bagels and similar US snacks for the pre-clearance staff. Life’s little treats.
 

paul1609

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My preferred route would probably be transiting through Dubai and making use of its airside transit hotel. £160 is worth it for a double or twin room that allows you to break your journey without passing through immigration.
Premier Inn opposite terminal 3b can be had for £35, has a free bus to all terminals and malls. Immigration in UAE is just a formality with little in the way of queues on a British passport in my experience.
 
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Manchester has been on the US Department of Homeland Security's list of European airports most suitable for joining the pre-clearance scheme, since at least 2015.

Those airports are Brussels, Amsterdam Schiphol, Oslo, Madrid-Barajas, Stockholm Arlanda, Istanbul Ataturk, London Heathrow and Manchester.
Nothing has happened though over the last 5 years, but just 3 months ago in September this year, the US Customs and Border Protection agency (part of the DHS), launched a campaign to restart the drive to expand the number of airports participating in the program.
It appears to be open house now, with airports invited to apply directly if they wish to be considered.

z
 

Butts

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13 on the Plane flying Easyjet from Birmingham to Edinburgh this evening.

Both Airports deserted and no "Border Checks" taking place :E

Please to say back to 45 min duration tonight - way to go !!
 

Fat Gaz

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There‘s minor differences between the operators safety procedures so I wonder who dictates what. For instance, Ryanair always puts the seatbelt signs on when one of the pilots leave the flight deck but I’ve not noticed that elsewhere with other European airlines.
That's so the aircrew get a free run at the khazi without having to queue :D
I’ve found Jet2 the most strict of all the UK operators, as I recall they still don’t allow headphones or electronic devices during take off/landing or at least that was the case when I flew them in late 2018. Caught me off guard because I’ve not been asked to do that in years. EasyJet seem to have a strange policy that if the plane is doing an (Auto) landing in poor visibility they ask devices to be switched off, but otherwise not.
That's because Jet2 are an excellent airline.

All airlines should ask you to remove headphones and earplugs so that you can hear the order to evacuate if the landing/takeoff doesn't work out as planned. More often than not, people refuse to or simply put them back in when the crew are not looking. Makes for an interesting lesson if an evacuation is called I can tell you.
 

Bletchleyite

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All airlines should ask you to remove headphones and earplugs so that you can hear the order to evacuate if the landing/takeoff doesn't work out as planned. More often than not, people refuse to or simply put them back in when the crew are not looking. Makes for an interesting lesson if an evacuation is called I can tell you.

I think it is rather unlikely that you would miss an unexpected crash landing (e.g. a runway excursion) even if you had earphones in. If nothing else you'll see everyone else getting up in a panic.

A planned emergency landing (e.g. known-failed gear) would follow a different policy with people briefed beforehand and no headphones.
 

Fat Gaz

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I think it is rather unlikely that you would miss an unexpected crash landing (e.g. a runway excursion) even if you had earphones in. If nothing else you'll see everyone else getting up in a panic.

A planned emergency landing (e.g. known-failed gear) would follow a different policy with people briefed beforehand and no headphones.
Unexpected crash landing perhaps, but not necessarily. On BA38 (B777-200 with double engine failure on landing) people at first thought it was the worst heavy landing and nothing more, then the evacuation order came. It had indeed crashed.

Its not just crash landings that cause evacuations. Engine fires/explosive failures, APU fires, undercarriage failures on take off or taxiing etc. All of which happen before or after the runway. All of which could cause an evacuation and one you'd not hear with earphones in. Additionally, the cabin lighting should be reduced during the taxiing, take off and landing phases to give evacuating passengers night vision on leaving the fuselage. All things designed to get passengers off of an aircraft promptly without having to rely on others getting up in a panic first.

With respect to being briefed beforehand, I'd love to know where that's happened and what the outcome was. I suspect it would create many more problems than it would solve. Granted as passengers you may be told by the pilot that there's a technical difficulty/problem but I'd love to know if any pilot has told the passengers outright that the undercarriage has failed and that they're about to crash land. If you refer to the order to brace, I suspect that is dropped in to you a second or two before you need to do it. But, I'm willing to be corrected on that and the previous point.
 

TravelDream

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With respect to being briefed beforehand, I'd love to know where that's happened and what the outcome was. I suspect it would create many more problems than it would solve. Granted as passengers you may be told by the pilot that there's a technical difficulty/problem but I'd love to know if any pilot has told the passengers outright that the undercarriage has failed and that they're about to crash land. If you refer to the order to brace, I suspect that is dropped in to you a second or two before you need to do it. But, I'm willing to be corrected on that and the previous point.

It's SOP for passengers to be briefed (or re-briefed) before any emergency landing if time and conditions allow.
 

Bletchleyite

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Unexpected crash landing perhaps, but not necessarily. On BA38 (B777-200 with double engine failure on landing) people at first thought it was the worst heavy landing and nothing more, then the evacuation order came. It had indeed crashed.

Pretty sure I would notice that there wasn't a runway out of the window!

Engine fires/explosive failures, APU fires, undercarriage failures on take off or taxiing etc.

You're going to notice the brakes going on when you didn't expect them to. If the plane does still take off (which it will if it happens above V1 and capable of doing so, e.g. one engine is still operative) then there's time to brief while it loops round to land again (possibly additional time to dump or burn off fuel etc depending on how serious it is).

With respect to being briefed beforehand, I'd love to know where that's happened and what the outcome was.

You could try "near enough every single emergency landing ever where it was known about before short final approach". Even if a problem does occur on short finals, it's more common that they would, if possible, "go around" to give time to investigate and brief passengers. Basically if there is any possibility to pre-brief, which there almost always is (BA38 being a rare example of where it wasn't), they will.

I suspect it would create many more problems than it would solve. Granted as passengers you may be told by the pilot that there's a technical difficulty/problem but I'd love to know if any pilot has told the passengers outright that the undercarriage has failed and that they're about to crash land.

I wouldn't expect them to give gross technical detail, but they would brief that there was a problem with the aircraft necessitating an emergency landing.

If you refer to the order to brace, I suspect that is dropped in to you a second or two before you need to do it. But, I'm willing to be corrected on that and the previous point.

They will certainly give advance notice of that if they can so as to remind people how to do it. Sure, they tell you at the start, but how many people actually pay attention then?
 

najaB

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You could try "near enough every single emergency landing ever where it was known about before short final approach"....
Basically if there is any possibility to pre-brief, which there almost always is (BA38 being a rare example of where it wasn't), they will.

The "communicate" in "aviate, navigate, communicate" applies as much to the passengers as it does to ATC.

History (and reading accident reports) shows that it's as common for there to be a briefing as not. BA38 is far form unique in the emergency developing too quickly to inform the passengers - Turkish 1951 or Asiana 214 come to mind.
 

Bletchleyite

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The "communicate" in "aviate, navigate, communicate" applies as much to the passengers as it does to ATC.

It does, but you have of course got the cabin crew who can communicate that there is an emergency without needing to necessarily know what it is.

But aren't we talking here of emergencies where not only is there no time to "communicate", but also it's not visible to passengers that there is something amiss - that must be pretty rare.
 

Fat Gaz

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You're going to notice the brakes going on when you didn't expect them to. If the plane does still take off (which it will if it happens above V1 and capable of doing so, e.g. one engine is still operative) then there's time to brief while it loops round to land again (possibly additional time to dump or burn off fuel etc depending on how serious it is).
True, but like I say above #6979 "Its not just crash landings that cause evacuations." How about on stand prior to pushback? You wouldn't notice the brakes going on there. My point was that emergencies can occur at any point in the flight, including those before it has left the stand. Sometimes it's not possible to know what's coming next.
I wouldn't expect them to give gross technical detail, but they would brief that there was a problem with the aircraft necessitating an emergency landing.
That would be something like "We have a technical issue and will be returning to **** airport shortly" perhaps? There are quite a few passengers who don't always react well to being told that there's "a problem" with the aircraft. Particularly if it involves a shortage of fuel.
They will certainly give advance notice of that if they can so as to remind people how to do it. Sure, they tell you at the start, but how many people actually pay attention then?
Very few pay attention. I have known of quite a few people to attempt to evacuate through the door that they entered the aircraft in. You would have thought that being sat two rows in font of an over wing exit they'd have gone for that? But no. 1L will do. Part of my point was to illustrate that there are aspects of the flight where that is not possible to pre brief or warn. Pre-push back is one of them (for APUs), engines starting off stand is another. Usually the preflight brief hasn't started by then and a few travellers still have headphones in at that point.

You could try "near enough every single emergency landing ever where it was known about before short final approach". Even if a problem does occur on short finals, it's more common that they would, if possible, "go around" to give time to investigate and brief passengers. Basically if there is any possibility to pre-brief, which there almost always is (BA38 being a rare example of where it wasn't), they will.
Can I ask what you mean by "brief passengers" please?

Most airlines are brilliant with their passengers and as I mentioned earlier, Jet2 are no exception. Unfortunately though, there are the rare and odd airlines who are not quite as diligent and not all passengers are model passengers and not all emergencies happen where you expect them to. It's shame is there are still some who continue to wear headphones and the like during a short period between: boarding and take off climb out / landing phase and disembarking. Not everybody knows what to do and headphones are an inhibitory factor to evacuations.
 

Bletchleyite

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True, but like I say above #6979 "Its not just crash landings that cause evacuations." How about on stand prior to pushback? You wouldn't notice the brakes going on there. My point was that emergencies can occur at any point in the flight, including those before it has left the stand. Sometimes it's not possible to know what's coming next.

It's fairly obvious if everyone stands back up again, though. And an evacuation being needed while still on stand is infinitessimally unlikely and would generally speaking involve something that would be obvious that something bad had happened e.g. a collision or large fire. Even a serious APU failure would be noticeable with a loud bang.

That would be something like "We have a technical issue and will be returning to **** airport shortly" perhaps? There are quite a few passengers who don't always react well to being told that there's "a problem" with the aircraft. Particularly if it involves a shortage of fuel.

It would be much more than that if a genuine emergency landing was going to happen rather than just a return "just in case" e.g. due to a single engine failure. If there is any chance of the "brace" position being needed, that would be re-briefed, in particular, with more detail about how to do it, as well as rebriefing those in the exit row. Yes, you do need to avoid scaring people, but you also need to make sure they know what to do.

Can I ask what you mean by "brief passengers" please?

Explain to them what is about to happen and how they need to react to it (e.g. explain that the landing will be rough and that when "brace brace" is shouted you do need to brace). And certainly in the case of an emergency landing they would be told not to use headphones, unlike a regular one.

Most airlines are brilliant with their passengers and as I mentioned earlier, Jet2 are no exception. Unfortunately though, there are the rare and odd airlines who are not quite as diligent and not all passengers are model passengers and not all emergencies happen where you expect them to. It's shame is there are still some who continue to wear headphones and the like during a short period between: boarding and take off climb out / landing phase and disembarking. Not everybody knows what to do and headphones are an inhibitory factor to evacuations.

Given that almost all airlines permit it, I'd suggest they have it right and Jet2 is being excessively paranoid.
 

najaB

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And an evacuation being needed while still on stand is infinitessimally unlikely and would generally speaking involve something that would be obvious that something bad had happened e.g. a collision or large fire.
One would hope that the evacuation would be completed well before it has time to become a large fire!

Even a serious APU failure would be noticeable with a loud bang.
To those seated in the last couple of rows, maybe.
 

Bald Rick

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I might be able to offer my experience, having been in an aircraft emergency.

1) When a turboprop blows, you definitely know about it in the cabin.

2) if, somehow you didn’t notice the noise, or the vibration, or the abnormal loss of altitude and speed, you’d certainly notice the ball of flame, the smoke pouring out of the engine, the extinguisher doing its job, the propeller whirling to a stop like on a stricken bomber in a war film, and many of the other passengers shouting ‘SWEET MOTHER OF MARY JESUS!” (This was in the Americas).

3) if you slept through all that, then when you land and you see fire engines and ambulances waiting for you at the runway threshold, and some chase you along the runway in the roll out, accompanied by a huge round of applause from the passengers for the pilot getting the plane down safely, then it would surely be only the dopiest of passengers who didn’t realise something was ‘up’.
 
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