First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

[overthewater]

With the new lockdown in place it would see the demand for an X38 on 2nd of January will be non existent now.

 

[Graham Alexand]

Merry Christmas everyone.

Is there a database of some kind detailing recent repaints of buses?

If so could you include a link, thank you and have a great Christmas.

 

[cnjb8]

Merry Christmas everyone.

Is there a database of some kind detailing recent repaints of buses?

If so could you include a link, thank you and have a great Christmas.

Fleet Report

fleetreport.co.uk

Reports on Stagecoach news. I was using Steve Knight Media but they have stopped their fleetnews this month

 

[Graham Alexand]

Fleet Report

fleetreport.co.uk

Reports on Stagecoach news. I was using Steve Knight Media but they have stopped their fleetnews this month

That's great, thank you .

 

[cnjb8]

That's great, thank you .

You're welcome

 

[Graham Alexand]

I seen SN66 WGY (33446) today, it now has the 600 Decals added now so branding is now complete.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I seen SN66 WGY (33446) today, it now has the 600 Decals added now so branding is now complete.

Waste of time / money imo. They should've branded a few of them for the X24/X25 which far more warrant decker capacity, especially now that the X17 and X38 are off and kept a few unbranded so they could be used on other routes if needed. Branding them all for the 600 was a poor move by First.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Waste of time / money imo. They should've branded a few of them for the X24/X25 which far more warrant decker capacity, especially now that the X17 and X38 are off and kept a few unbranded so they could be used on other routes if needed. Branding them all for the 600 was a poor move by First.

Was there some kind of start-up money available for the 600 route? If the airport wanted to subsidise its promotion through consistent branding perhaps it wasn't First's decision to make.
Didn't First tried branding before in this area with the Pioneering Spirit idea? If so I expect they'll know themselves if the target X24/X25 market is likely to respond to it.

 

[Graham Alexand]

Waste of time / money imo. They should've branded a few of them for the X24/X25 which far more warrant decker capacity, especially now that the X17 and X38 are off and kept a few unbranded so they could be used on other routes if needed. Branding them all for the 600 was a poor move by First.

Was there some kind of start-up money available for the 600 route? If the airport wanted to subsidise its promotion through consistent branding perhaps it wasn't First's decision to make.
Didn't First tried branding before in this area with the Pioneering Spirit idea? If so I expect they'll know themselves if the target X24/X25 market is likely to respond to it.

I know, the Edinburgh routes should have branded buses, advertising the 600 route is quite useless for the reason it isn't serving the airport and probably this is long term seeing as covid is spiking again (i understand most 600 branded buses were already branded pre covid but still).

The only other route they have branded buses for is the 23/X23 which is an out of date route on singles and SN66 WGJ (33437) which is branded for an also out of date Route 23.


It would have been more beneficial having the Edinburgh routes branded.

If the just added the "X" in front of the 23 for doubles and remove the 23 on singles to at least have in date Branding.

 

[156478]

Was there some kind of start-up money available for the 600 route? If the airport wanted to subsidise its promotion through consistent branding perhaps it wasn't First's decision to make.
Didn't First tried branding before in this area with the Pioneering Spirit idea? If so I expect they'll know themselves if the target X24/X25 market is likely to respond to it.

The Pioneering Spirit bus route. I wonder if any customers call the route the Pioneering Spirit or if it means anything to the customers?

I have a sneaky suspicion the answer to both is "naw".

 

[cammyeaston]

My personal opinion is that no buses should be route branded unless the vehicles are specifically allocated to that route.

The 23 branded vehicles irk me something special - the route it is branding doesn't exist and on top of that, it advertises that First serve Kirknewton which they no longer do.

Deans seems to often struggle keep to keep branded vehicles to their proper routes so question is why brand them at all? As an aside, does route branding actually work (another topic perhaps)?

 

[Siemens Trains]

As an aside, does route branding actually work (another topic perhaps)?

The Pioneering Spirit bus route. I wonder if any customers call the route the Pioneering Spirit or if it means anything to the customers?

I have a sneaky suspicion the answer to both is "naw".

I suppose the idea is to try and encourage new passengers out of their cars by making the vehicles distinctive. When people are driving around they see their journey could have been made by bus. Numbers often don't mean much to folk who aren't used to negotiating buses and can be a barrier. Also it might make existing passengers feel valued in some way by showing investment in an aesthetic. But West Lothian to the city centre is almost a lost cause for this type of promotion as the service is pretty rubbish compared to driving or catching the train. For an airport connection like the 600 it's probably a good idea though.
Of course when the branding goes wrong it just does more harm than good.
One of the Edinburgh companies ran a series of playing cards as branding about 10 or 20 years ago on a few of their high frequency routes. It had a 'best deal' slogan and seemed quite clever. Unfortunate for those left gambling on their Joker routes, but it was quite memorable nevertheless. Other than that much branding appears to dissipate without being very effective.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I suppose the idea is to try and encourage new passengers out of their cars by making the vehicles distinctive. When people are driving around they see their journey could have been made by bus. Numbers often don't mean much to folk who aren't used to negotiating buses and can be a barrier. Also it might make existing passengers feel valued in some way by showing investment in an aesthetic. But West Lothian to the city centre is almost a lost cause for this type of promotion as the service is pretty rubbish compared to driving or catching the train. For an airport connection like the 600 it's probably a good idea though.
Of course when the branding goes wrong it just does more harm than good.
One of the Edinburgh companies ran a series of playing cards as branding about 10 or 20 years ago on a few of their high frequency routes. It had a 'best deal' slogan and seemed quite clever. Unfortunate for those left gambling on their Joker routes, but it was quite memorable nevertheless. Other than that much branding appears to dissipate without being very effective.

The argument about whether branding works has been done to death on various threads.

Clearly, branding works to a certain level.... bus companies in themselves are brands.

 

[cnjb8]

My personal opinion is that no buses should be route branded unless the vehicles are specifically allocated to that route.

The 23 branded vehicles irk me something special - the route it is branding doesn't exist and on top of that, it advertises that First serve Kirknewton which they no longer do.

Deans seems to often struggle keep to keep branded vehicles to their proper routes so question is why brand them at all? As an aside, does route branding actually work (another topic perhaps)?

As I have said a lot, it works really well for companies who actually stick to using the branded buses on the right routes, such as TrentBarton

 

[overthewater]

Was there some kind of start-up money available for the 600 route? If the airport wanted to subsidise its promotion through consistent branding perhaps it wasn't First's decision to make.
Didn't First tried branding before in this area with the Pioneering Spirit idea? If so I expect they'll know themselves if the target X24/X25 market is likely to respond to it.

It was never awarded and should be included in the tenders which will come out in the spring. Hopeful Lothian will go after No40 and first goes after no7. ( which REALLY shouldn't be running anyways)

 

[Baileygirl]

Was there some kind of start-up money available for the 600 route? If the airport wanted to subsidise its promotion through consistent branding perhaps it wasn't First's decision to make.
Didn't First tried branding before in this area with the Pioneering Spirit idea? If so I expect they'll know themselves if the target X24/X25 market is likely to respond to it.

First received a year free of airport charges and ran the 21A through the airport into Edinburgh park. Fares were then the normal fares which was charged on all routes, I.E Ratho to the airport £1.70. After the year, charges were made for entering the airport and the 600 was created, fares to the airport went up, I.E. Ratho to the airport £5.00.

 

[Boothby97]

Fleet Report

fleetreport.co.uk

Reports on Stagecoach news. I was using Steve Knight Media but they have stopped their fleetnews this month

Just to add to this, I am the main person behind the new site. As you say Steven Knight has finished his site now, but my site replaces it and he will continue to feed information through to me. The information on the site should continue to be a similar standard to what he provided .

I'm hoping to get chance to compile a list that I can regularly update to keep track of the new repaints, but I suspect this will be a mammoth task

 

[cnjb8]

Just to add to this, I am the main person behind the new site. As you say Steven Knight has finished his site now, but my site replaces it and he will continue to feed information through to me. The information on the site should continue to be a similar standard to what he provided .

I'm hoping to get chance to compile a list that I can regularly update to keep track of the new repaints, but I suspect this will be a mammoth task

That's great
I'm sure someone will be keeping a list of repaints on here

 

[route101]

First received a year free of airport charges and ran the 21A through the airport into Edinburgh park. Fares were then the normal fares which was charged on all routes, I.E Ratho to the airport £1.70. After the year, charges were made for entering the airport and the 600 was created, fares to the airport went up, I.E. Ratho to the airport £5.00.

£5? jings. I took the 747 from Ratho Travelodge to Airport was half that i think.

 

[Graham Alexand]

Just to add to this, I am the main person behind the new site. As you say Steven Knight has finished his site now, but my site replaces it and he will continue to feed information through to me. The information on the site should continue to be a similar standard to what he provided .

I'm hoping to get chance to compile a list that I can regularly update to keep track of the new repaints, but I suspect this will be a mammoth task

Sounds great.

Also happy new year all, have a great 2021.

The most recent First West Lothian repaint is SN66 WGY 33446 getting 600 decals added.

If i notice a repaint I'll say, will you be doing Lothian Buses (also Subsidiaries) as well?

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Perhaps worthy of another thread and willing to move if so but...

Is FSE a big money maker for First? I understand First are profitable in Glasgow but is Scotland East a big market for first for them to continue providing a service?

Lothian are of course the more dominant operator in Edinburgh with First providing operations around West Lothian. I don’t imagine they see very high numbers as just about any bus I’ve ever seen operated by First has been empty. They’ve did more in recent years to improve the fleet by introducing newer branded buses but previously they were notorious for buses going there to die. Not to mention most buses go through other operators before cascading over to FSE for some reason very little buses are ordered new like other subsadries.

Lothian are always going to have the better fleet and better overall service domination compared to First so why do they bother to stay in the territory? Would it not be better to focus on Aberdeen and Glasgow where they are successful?

 

[CN04NRJ]

Perhaps worthy of another thread and willing to move if so but...

Is FSE a big money maker for First? I understand First are profitable in Glasgow but is Scotland East a big market for first for them to continue providing a service?

Lothian are of course the more dominant operator in Edinburgh with First providing operations around West Lothian. I don’t imagine they see very high numbers as just about any bus I’ve ever seen operated by First has been empty. They’ve did more in recent years to improve the fleet by introducing newer branded buses but previously they were notorious for buses going there to die. Not to mention most buses go through other operators before cascading over to FSE for some reason very little buses are ordered new like other subsadries.

Lothian are always going to have the better fleet and better overall service domination compared to First so why do they bother to stay in the territory? Would it not be better to focus on Aberdeen and Glasgow where they are successful?

Either way, the status quo in West Lothian can't remain forever as there isn't room for two operators. I guess it'll just be a case of who blinks first (pun not intended!).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Lothian are always going to have the better fleet and better overall service domination compared to First so why do they bother to stay in the territory? Would it not be better to focus on Aberdeen and Glasgow where they are successful?

Because, quite simply, if they roll over when a competitor comes into West Lothian, then where does it stop? Lothian then decide they fancy Falkirk? Or perhaps Stagecoach going into Aberdeen?

There was much talk on these threads that First would simply walk away with people citing earlier examples such as Barnstaple or Northampton; that was always unlikely to be the case and it's probably costing Lothian more (or it was before the Covid safety net) than it was costing First.

The irony was that they could have attacked First when they had a terrible fleet. However, they missed the boat so the fleet had been much improved by the time Lothian began their incursion. As for new buses, and Covid will impact on that massively, but few First OpCos get new vehicles regularly. Glasgow has benefited because of the LEZ; I doubt Aberdeen would've benefited had it not been for the Hydrogen funding.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Perhaps worthy of another thread and willing to move if so but...

Is FSE a big money maker for First? I understand First are profitable in Glasgow but is Scotland East a big market for first for them to continue providing a service?

Lothian are of course the more dominant operator in Edinburgh with First providing operations around West Lothian. I don’t imagine they see very high numbers as just about any bus I’ve ever seen operated by First has been empty. They’ve did more in recent years to improve the fleet by introducing newer branded buses but previously they were notorious for buses going there to die. Not to mention most buses go through other operators before cascading over to FSE for some reason very little buses are ordered new like other subsadries.

Lothian are always going to have the better fleet and better overall service domination compared to First so why do they bother to stay in the territory? Would it not be better to focus on Aberdeen and Glasgow where they are successful?

Pre-Bus War West Lothian had the highest profit margin for FirstBus within Scotland and First were seeing huge passenger growth. Obviously won't be the case now, but it's clear to see why First have stood their ground and it's unlikely at this point they're going to back down. I wouldn't agree about Lothian having overall better service domination, maybe within Edinburgh but outside is a whole different story... The Midland Bluebird side used to be one of First's poorest opcos, but over the last 6-7 years management reform combined with vehicle investment has improved things significantly. Likewise i find it unlikely they'll back down anytime soon, the fact they've launched the X53, extended the 51 and have been trying new things with the Glasgow services clearly shows quite the opposite and that they are looking to grow.

Although i find any sales unlikely i'd actually think Aberdeen being sold off is more probable than FSE, however as i must state, i think any sales at the moment are highly unlikely and the trend lately has been the opposite.

Because, quite simply, if they roll over when a competitor comes into West Lothian, then where does it stop? Lothian then decide they fancy Falkirk? Or perhaps Stagecoach going into Aberdeen?

There was much talk on these threads that First would simply walk away with people citing earlier examples such as Barnstaple or Northampton; that was always unlikely to be the case and it's probably costing Lothian more (or it was before the Covid safety net) than it was costing First.

I agree. As i've said elsewhere already i don't think predicting what FirstGroup will do on the future based on what has happened in the distant past is a good idea. The aims and objectives of FirstGroup now are very different to what they were 5-10 years ago, the days of First crumbling at the sight of any competition are generally long gone now.

 

[smtglasgow]

The problem area for FSE is the Falkirk/Stirling ops of Midland Bluebird. Livingston made a profit pre-Covid, but I can’t remember when Midland Bluebird last turned in any decent numbers – although (without checking) I think the losses have been dramatically reduced. For whatever reason, First just don’t seem to be able to get the sorts of returns from FSE that (for example) Stagecoach manage in neighbouring territory. I’m sure if there was a chance that someone (who?) wanted to take Bannockburn and Larbert off their hands, First would jump at the chance. But if that was going to happen, it would have happened by now, so Falkirk and Bannockburn limp on. To give First due credit, the fleet had a lot of investment between 2014-2016 (new and cascades) and is unrecognisable compared to about a decade ago. They've also done some good work in trying to make their day/weekly fares more reasonable.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The problem area for FSE is the Falkirk/Stirling ops of Midland Bluebird. Livingston made a profit pre-Covid, but I can’t remember when Midland Bluebird last turned in any decent numbers – although (without checking) I think the losses have been dramatically reduced. For whatever reason, First just don’t seem to be able to get the sorts of returns from FSE that (for example) Stagecoach manage in neighbouring territory. I’m sure if there was a chance that someone (who?) wanted to take Bannockburn and Larbert off their hands, First would jump at the chance. But if that was going to happen, it would have happened by now, so Falkirk and Bannockburn limp on. To give First due credit, the fleet had a lot of investment between 2014-2016 (new and cascades) and is unrecognisable compared to about a decade ago. They've also done some good work in trying to make their day/weekly fares more reasonable.

For the last published results, Midland Bluebird actually broke even; the benefits of recasting the network and sorting out the fleet finally being realised.

FSE lost a boatload but that wasn't surprising because of the amount of competition - reduced income allied to increased costs (increased frequencies = more resources) saw to that.

 

[overthewater]

For every other year Midland does make money then makes a loss then makes money again. The accounts where joined together then spilt etc its a fun game.

The trouble with Falkirk and Stirling is easy one, First are only in Stirling because of the UNI, take away that and what do you have? sod all, the main two main routes are both service that head out of town. Ie 51 and 38. Falkirk on the other hand has a bigger problem, the town centre is dire now and more of the people shopping in the Retail park across the train lines, its busy... and alas the buses only serve the just outside it. I don't know how Callendar square Shopping centre is still open, but sicne bus stance closed down I bet the Iceland been hammed with less passengers.

What can First do to claw back bus passengers in Falkirk? Apart from going into the retail park which would require some road alterations, nothing much. Weekly ticket's are best valued its been in years and it still not enough. Stirling again I cant figure out why the town service are that bad.

Livingston has something, A shopping complex and big college that is easy for buses to serve. I know where my money would go on who will blink first, but thanks to furlough scheme nothing will happen until that ends..

 

[CN04NRJ]

For every other year Midland does make money then makes a loss then makes money again. The accounts where joined together then spilt etc its a fun game.

The trouble with Falkirk and Stirling is easy one, First are only in Stirling because of the UNI, take away that and what do you have? sod all, the main two main routes are both service that head out of town. Ie 51 and 38. Falkirk on the other hand has a bigger problem, the town centre is dire now and more of the people shopping in the Retail park across the train lines, its busy... and alas the buses only serve the just outside it. I don't know how Callendar square Shopping centre is still open, but sicne bus stance closed down I bet the Iceland been hammed with less passengers.

What can First do to claw back bus passengers in Falkirk? Apart from going into the retail park which would require some road alterations, nothing much. Weekly ticket's are best valued its been in years and it still not enough. Stirling again I cant figure out why the town service are that bad.

Livingston has something, A shopping complex and big college that is easy for buses to serve. I know where my money would go on who will blink first, but thanks to furlough scheme nothing will happen until that ends..

Who's got drivers on furlough? Genuine question as I'm not aware of any?

 

[cnjb8]

Because, quite simply, if they roll over when a competitor comes into West Lothian, then where does it stop? Lothian then decide they fancy Falkirk? Or perhaps Stagecoach going into Aberdeen?

There was much talk on these threads that First would simply walk away with people citing earlier examples such as Barnstaple or Northampton; that was always unlikely to be the case and it's probably costing Lothian more (or it was before the Covid safety net) than it was costing First.

The irony was that they could have attacked First when they had a terrible fleet. However, they missed the boat so the fleet had been much improved by the time Lothian began their incursion. As for new buses, and Covid will impact on that massively, but few First OpCos get new vehicles regularly. Glasgow has benefited because of the LEZ; I doubt Aberdeen would've benefited had it not been for the Hydrogen funding.

I used those examples when people were asking why First didn't buy Xplore Dundee.
If they sold those operations and retained FSE then maybe it is profitable

 

[overthewater]

Who's got drivers on furlough? Genuine question as I'm not aware of any?

Surely Both? neither companies PVR is back to where it was pre covid, especial with LCB which has discussed that there PVR is well done like missing section of X17 and all of the X38 and EX2. IF the drivers are not furlough then well have they been sacked? if its neither of those two what on earth is company doing with the drivers?