'Leeds Bradford Airport Parkway' Consultation (2021)

[bluenoxid]

Would a Luton DART style connection be possible / worthwhile here?

If the airport achieves the growth rates they are looking at, yes that would be reasonable. It might even be a good starter for a region wide mass transit network similar to the proposals to connect Glasgow Airport to the rail link.

 

[Halifaxlad]

TBMs are rarely reused - they're generally knackered once they've done what they're designed for. Besides, TBM purchase will be a small fraction of overall costs for a tunnelling project.

I was reading something the otherday that some machines themselves can cost up to £80 million.

I am aware of the notion that they're generally knackered after use although I don't see why the cutting head can't be replaced between tunnels ?

I think most are generally abandoned/scrapped as they're is usually a long period between need for them and the obvious removal and storage costs for such large machines over decades.

 

[Bald Rick]

Once NPHR is underway it may be possible to bring that down significantly by using one of their TBM's.

TBMs cost about £10m. Railway tunnels cost about £150m/km (assuming no stations).

Would a Luton DART style connection be possible / worthwhile here?

Possible, yes. But note that the Luton Dart is over £100m per km.

 

[30907]

For the sake of an extra three-quarters of a mile, the existing Horsforth station could be developed into an airport interchange for a fraction of the cost of the new one. It has an existing crossover and turnback siding which could be used for additional airport services and space for an enlarged car park and bus interchange. ... Has this scheme really been thought through properly?

The Authority (see upthread) say a bus from Horsforth couldn't be reliable. It could be done, but it would require a mile of new road parallel to the railway - and a P+R for Leeds there would be in a built up area, not ideal. Without the P+R the business case would presumably be dodgy.

Whilst the existing public transport to airport from pretty much anywhere is dire in the extreme (can't believe anybody uses it),...

I use it, but then I live within suitcase-pulling distance of Shipley Market Place... however, it has only been hourly for some years.

 

[quantinghome]

Would a Luton DART style connection be possible / worthwhile here?

Possible, yes, but Luton managed with buses for decades before making that investment, and has four times the passengers of Leeds-Bradford. So I can't see it happening for a while yet.

Personally I think we should go for a cable car.

 

[backontrack]

Considering the likely fate of the airline industry in relation to the flows LBA caters for, and the carbon emissions of flying (which should mean flying is restricted)...this'd be like pouring money into a hole. Terrible idea.

 

[EcsWhyZee]

I’ve never understood this point of view. For context I am an electric car driver and hold a private pilots license.

Do you really think zero emission air transport is outside the realms of possibility? The worlds first Hydrogen plane flew in the UK last year. Electric planes are getting ready for commercial service in Seattle. Yes, short distance for now. But that’s how EVs started.

 

[HSTEd]

Do you really think zero emission air transport is outside the realms of possibility? The worlds first Hydrogen plane flew in the UK last year.

The hard part is not the technical challenge of building a hydrogen airliner.
The hard part is building a hydrogen airliner that is in any way commercially useful.
It will look like a fuel tank with a passenger cabin grafted on, not like any extant airliner.

It probably won't fit most of the extant airport infrastructure and fueling it will be a nightmare.
It will have all the problems of the A380, only more.

The Skylon spaceplane has a projected launch mass 56% of the A380s takeoff weight, and yet the fuel tank results in this, with something like treble the fuel volume - and the vast majority of the fuel mass is actually high density LOX instead of LH2, but the vast majority of the tank volume is for LH2.

Electric planes are getting ready for commercial service in Seattle. Yes, short distance for now. But that’s how EVs started.

Unfortunately, electric cars are not constrained by the laws of physics to save every gram.
The batteries required to provide aircraft with useful payload masses and useful ranges simply do not exist at present.

Nevermind the safety requirements for type classification for long distance flights over oceans.
Remember this is an industry that, in the US, is still burning leaded petrol in general aviation applications because the FAA refuses to allow any oxygenates on the plane!
No ethanol, methanol or MTBE to boost octane rating.

If effective zero carbon aviation is to arrive in the next 25 years, it will be using zero carbon synthetic kerosene.

 

[quantinghome]

Considering the likely fate of the airline industry in relation to the flows LBA caters for, and the carbon emissions of flying (which should mean flying is restricted)...this'd be like pouring money into a hole. Terrible idea.

I suspect the majority of passengers at the parkway station will not be travelling to the airport. It will still be useful even if the airline industry declines.

 

[Bald Rick]

Considering the likely fate of the airline industry in relation to the flows LBA caters for

Which will bounce back quickly ...

and the carbon emissions of flying (which should mean flying is restricted)

Which it won’t be ...


... surely it would be a good idea to reduce car traffic to the airport?

 

[Clip]

I'd agree that the land prices will be higher, but not four times higher; and if the civils are going to be so expensive, why build a station at all? The wooden decking days may be over but I'm sure WYCA could still afford at least two stations with £42m.

I've no idea im not a construction engineer but they obviously have put a lot of work into this

 

[YorksLad12]

I'd agree that the land prices will be higher, but not four times higher; and if the civils are going to be so expensive, why build a station at all? The wooden decking days may be over but I'm sure WYCA could still afford at least two stations with £42m.

Don't forget it is also deep down in a cutting, especially with the weight of all that steel its probably going to need some serious piling!

As well as the cutting, there's the land take for the car park and the station building itself seems to be much larger than the sort we normally get. It has toilets for a start, and space for 'outlets'.

I hate to be a Negative Nelly, especially on my own turf (and on a project I might have been promoting if I hadn't left), but this station has all the makings of an A380-sized white elephant. I don't see how they're going to get a 4tph frequency, which is what they aspire to, without missing out odd stops elsewhere (which the Leeds-Harrogate service already does). I'm all for modal shift and modal connectivity, but taking a train and a bus to take a flight is just silly!

 

[Clip]

As well as the cutting, there's the land take for the but taking a train and a bus to take a flight is just silly!

But that's been happening at Luton airport for a good long while

 

[Bald Rick]

But that's been happening at Luton airport for a good long while

Indeed. Something like 4m people a year do it (until last year).

 

[YorksLad12]

But that's been happening at Luton airport for a good long while

Indeed. Something like 4m people a year do it (until last year).

I'll be happy to be proven wrong. Let's see what 2031's Estimates of Passenger Usage report

 

[ivanhoe]

If LBA is anything like East Midlands, then there are large passenger movements between 6 and 9am.(In normal times) Given that you’ll need to be there 2 hours before departure for international flights there’ll be a large number of passengers which the train will be of little use. Like EMA, LBA has many holiday flights. Whilst it maybe useful for some airport employees, I just can’t see whether this is nothing but a vanity project. Perhaps improving current public transport links is the way forward . Just look at the Skylink routes that serve EMA!

 

[YorksLad12]

I had a look at the CAA statistics for July 2019, a summer when lots of people were flying (https://www.caa.co.uk/Data-and-anal...atasets/UK-Airport-data/Airport-data-2019-07/).

Then I looked at Table 9: https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles.../Table_09_Terminal_and_Transit_Passengers.pdf

It's a lot of station we're building, Parkway or no, for the number of passengers - many of whom will still drive direct, because they won't want to be driving into Leeds or Harrogate to catch a train and change to a bus. Why would you? I wouldn't.

 

[skyhigh]

With the going rate, how far would get get with electrification on the Harrogate line for the cost of this station?

 

[Bald Rick]

With the going rate, how far would get get with electrification on the Harrogate line for the cost of this station?

Coincidentally, exactly to this proposed station (from Armley Junction). @ £2.5m per single track km.

 

[skyhigh]

Coincidentally, exactly to this proposed station (from Armley Junction). @ £2.5m per single track km.

Thanks. Living in the area I'd have thought that would be a better use of the money, but oh well!

 

[nimbus21]

So the station will be of no use whatsoever to the airport's second biggest user, Bradford, and will require multi-modal changes by everybody else to get there. What a waste of money. Most of West Yorkshire will happily carry on heading to Manchester on the M62 or on the fast direct trains.

 

[xotGD]

This is a Parkway station for people commuting into Leeds. The fact that it will also provide a means of getting to the airport is a bit of a Brucie Bonus.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This is a Parkway station for people commuting into Leeds. The fact that it will also provide a means of getting to the airport is a bit of a Brucie Bonus.

Similar things have been said about the planned White Elephant Centre station... my question is, would either of these stations be even close to being funded if they didn't have a tenuous link to an amenity of dubious value some distance away?

 

[YorksLad12]

This is a Parkway station for people commuting into Leeds. The fact that it will also provide a means of getting to the airport is a bit of a Brucie Bonus.

And the business park. Individually the numbers don't stack up, but together... well, they still don't stack up, but it's a threefer so let's go for it.

Similar things have been said about the planned White Elephant Centre station... my question is, would either of these stations be even close to being funded if they didn't have a tenuous link to an amenity of dubious value some distance away?

IF office occupancy falls then there will be fewer passengers for the White Rose Business Park, which must affect the business case. It was 'sold' as being a greater benefit for the business park (reducing car journeys) than the shopping centre. Of course, it might still attract greater patronage than Cottingley.

Ironically, Thorpe Park would have the best case as it's in the middle of a large, mixed-development site - but it has to wait for TRU, or at least take account of it in the planning...

 

[numero uno]

As well as the cutting, there's the land take for the car park and the station building itself seems to be much larger than the sort we normally get. It has toilets for a start, and space for 'outlets'.

I hate to be a Negative Nelly, especially on my own turf (and on a project I might have been promoting if I hadn't left), but this station has all the makings of an A380-sized white elephant. I don't see how they're going to get a 4tph frequency, which is what they aspire to, without missing out odd stops elsewhere (which the Leeds-Harrogate service already does). I'm all for modal shift and modal connectivity, but taking a train and a bus to take a flight is just silly!

It's about a mile from the southern exit of Bramhope tunnel to Horsforth station, a matter of minutes on the train currently. I can't see how it can be feasible for a service to stop at both stations, I doubt a 170 would even get up to speed in that distance before having to slow down again. If they are doing 2tph then I assume that's 2tph stopping at LBA and 2tph stopping at Horsforth with the turnback service filling in the gaps for Horsforth. I've no idea how they are planning to get 4tph to LBA without increasing the Harrogate line trains to 6tph or just bypassing Horsforth completely.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's about a mile from the southern exit of Bramhope tunnel to Horsforth station, a matter of minutes on the train currently. I can't see how it can be feasible for a service to stop at both stations, I doubt a 170 would even get up to speed in that distance before having to slow down again. If they are doing 2tph then I assume that's 2tph stopping at LBA and 2tph stopping at Horsforth with the turnback service filling in the gaps for Horsforth. I've no idea how they are planning to get 4tph to LBA without increasing the Harrogate line trains to 6tph or just bypassing Horsforth completely.

What an odd thing to say. There’s scores of national rail stations in this country closer together than that where services call at both. Burley Park and Headingley being one such, very relevant, example. In this case it would be very odd if they didn’t call at both.

 

[Bigman]

There is nothing to stop trains coming into Leeds coming back out again to other destinations, such as Bradford Interchange/Halifax/Huddersfield. This would eliminate the need to change. It is just a shame that there is no facing crossover at Armley Junction from the Harrogate lines onto the Skipton Lines. As things stand, the most Southerly platform that can be accessed from the Harrogate lines is 12D.

 

[xotGD]

IF office occupancy falls then there will be fewer passengers for the White Rose Business Park, which must affect the business case.

Not necessarily. Companies may have more staff nominally based at White Rose with hot desking, so that the daily numbers are relatively unchanged.

 

[eisenach]

It's interesting to read this thread.

As I kid in the 70s I spent quite a bit of time watching the trains in and out out of the tunnel from the bridge over the railway by what we called then Pound's Farm, having cycled down the unmade track (as it was then) from Cookridge cricket ground. The farm track over the bridge was unmetalled, too, and a good place to spot four-leaved clover !

 

[southern442]

Whatever the qualms about the usefulness of the station, I must say the proposed designs look a lot more warm and friendly than the basic, functional new stations that we seem to be obsessed with putting up these days.