Kings Cross ‘uncrossed’ Layout/Remodelling - Information and Updates

[swt_passenger]

This from Ian Visits
"In addition, the signalling system from King’s Cross to Peterborough is being transferred from the King’s Cross Signal Box to the Railway Operation Centre in York. This will allow for the signal box at King’s Cross to be demolished, opening up the space for the new tracks into the re-opened tunnel."
Avoid King’s Cross station over the August Bank Holiday (ianvisits.co.uk)

Thanks for pics

I think he’s very much mistaken then.

 

[Glenn1969]

This is dated July 2019 so is not referring to anything planned this year

 

[Mcq]

This from Network rail
King’s Cross Remodelling - Network Rail
"The signalling system between King’s Cross and Peterborough is being transferred from the local King’s Cross signal box to the state-of-the-art Railway Operations Centre in York. While modern signalling will help us to recover services more quickly if disrupted, this change will also allow the signal box at King’s Cross to be demolished, creating additional space for the new tracks into the third tunnel."

Either way it says the box has to be demolished to 'create space' for the new tracks' - so presumably it has to be fairly soon - or is NR wrong too?

 

[swt_passenger]

This from Network rail
King’s Cross Remodelling - Network Rail
"The signalling system between King’s Cross and Peterborough is being transferred from the local King’s Cross signal box to the state-of-the-art Railway Operations Centre in York. While modern signalling will help us to recover services more quickly if disrupted, this change will also allow the signal box at King’s Cross to be demolished, creating additional space for the new tracks into the third tunnel."

Either way it says the box has to be demolished to 'create space' for the new tracks' - so presumably it has to be fairly soon - or is NR wrong too?

I don’t know then. That photo I linked to suggests there’d be space anyway, the tunnel portal seems fully visible...

 

[Shwam3]

Kings Cross PSB's remaining area of control is Kings Cross and Moorgate up to Oakleigh Park and Grange Park. This will transfer to York ROC on 26th April.
None of Peterborough signalbox will be transferring to the ROC any time soon.

 

[Mcq]

Thanks Shwam3
So that is all signals and points, I imagine that Open Train Times will be updated and may now show routing over points in future

 

[hwl]

This from Ian Visits
"In addition, the signalling system from King’s Cross to Peterborough is being transferred from the King’s Cross Signal Box to the Railway Operation Centre in York. This will allow for the signal box at King’s Cross to be demolished, opening up the space for the new tracks into the re-opened tunnel."
Avoid King’s Cross station over the August Bank Holiday (ianvisits.co.uk)

Thanks for pics

A few crossed wires there. The new track layout needs new interlocking and also new modern work stations, which means to swap to York.

 

[Shwam3]

Thanks Shwam3
So that is all signals and points, I imagine that Open Train Times will be updated and may now show routing over points in future

Signal aspect, route set, and TRTS (train ready to start) data will be available so I'd expect so.

 

[hwl]

I’ve never heard the box was in the way. There’s a few updated photos on their Twitter page today, eg this one:

https://twitter.com/Trigg/status/1355503155635740677/photo/1

I expect that fresh ballast is the new P0 track position?

I presume P0 is now out of use for some weeks?

I has already been out of use for a while and will be out of use till the eastern tunnel and new signalling is ready.

The P1 face of the P0/1 island will need altering after P0, eastern bore and point work is available.

 

[MarkyT]

This from Network rail
King’s Cross Remodelling - Network Rail
"The signalling system between King’s Cross and Peterborough is being transferred from the local King’s Cross signal box to the state-of-the-art Railway Operations Centre in York. While modern signalling will help us to recover services more quickly if disrupted, this change will also allow the signal box at King’s Cross to be demolished, creating additional space for the new tracks into the third tunnel."

Either way it says the box has to be demolished to 'create space' for the new tracks' - so presumably it has to be fairly soon - or is NR wrong too?

I don't know whether or not the old box needs to go to physically make room for the new layout. I didn't think it did, as there are a small number of spur sidings often used for spare loco stabling in the area that are being removed, and clearly the box was originally constructed while the old pre-1970s was still in operation, which included the east bore of course. However, what might be the case is that removal of the building is desirable nonetheless as it makes construction activities easier and less risky with more useful space adjacent to the site available to store and pre-assemble materials, swing cranes, etc.

 

[BrianW]

I don't know whether or not the old box needs to go to physically make room for the new layout. I didn't think it did, as there are a small number of spur sidings often used for spare loco stabling in the area that are being removed, and clearly the box was originally constructed while the old pre-1970s was still in operation, which included the east bore of course. However, what might be the case is that removal of the building is desirable nonetheless as it makes construction activities easier and less risky with more useful space adjacent to the site available to store and pre-assemble materials, swing cranes, etc.

Time now/yet/ soon to update the Wikipedia entries for eg Gasworks and Copenhagen Tunnels?

I’ve never heard the box was in the way. There’s a few updated photos on their Twitter page today, eg this one:

https://twitter.com/Trigg/status/1355503155635740677/photo/1

I expect that fresh ballast is the new P0 track position?

I presume P0 is now out of use for some weeks?

Wow- that's changed so much since last I looked- not just York Road gone for Platform 0 and east bore to reopen and diesel stabling gone and Granary and Top Shed become Uni, no Streaks, no Deltics, no fish trains ...
Must get out more. Thank you for these piccies.

 

[BantamMenace]

I don’t know then. That photo I linked to suggests there’d be space anyway, the tunnel portal seems fully visible...

To my untrained eye i'd agree with you on phyisical space for the alignment but the wires would be a bit close for comfort.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know whether or not the old box needs to go to physically make room for the new layout. I didn't think it did, as there are a small number of spur sidings often used for spare loco stabling in the area that are being removed, and clearly the box was originally constructed while the old pre-1970s was still in operation, which included the east bore of course. However, what might be the case is that removal of the building is desirable nonetheless as it makes construction activities easier and less risky with more useful space adjacent to the site available to store and pre-assemble materials, swing cranes, etc.

Looking at the Google aerial view there’s possibly an REB, (relocatable equipment building), in a compound just north of the signalling centre that’s in the way of the future easternmost track, but that’s probably all...

 

[MarkyT]

To my untrained eye i'd agree with you on phyisical space for the alignment but the wires would be a bit close for comfort.

Yes, and it's highly likely that new support structures for the revised catenary may have been placed well back from the nearest rail, possibly within the footprint of the PSB building. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[Mcq]

Signal aspect, route set, and TRTS data will be available so I'd expect so.

Thanks Shwam3 - I take it that TRTS is the Head Code info?

 

[MarkyT]

Thanks Shwam3 - I take it that TRTS is the Head Code info?

'Train Ready To Start', a platform button used by traincrew or station staff to indicate to signallers that a particular train is ready for a signal route to be set from a station for its onward journey. Automatic Route Setting (where provided and switched on) also uses that as a trigger to begin routing the train.

 

[swt_passenger]

Planning application drawing on Camden website shows everything is well clear of the signal box.

Camden planning reference: 2019/2626/L

 

[Mcq]

Oh - thank you - so what's the correct name of the device/info that relays the trains headcode when it passes over it - I assume this will need to go to York too.

 

[John Webb]

Oh - thank you - so what's the correct name of the device/info that relays the trains headcode when it passes over it - I assume this will need to go to York too.

The headcode moves along the signal display (panel or VDU) in accord with the operation of track circuits as the train passes over them.

 

[Mcq]

Thanks John - I didn't express my self properly.
The devices fixed to the sleepers that read the head code from a passing train - what are they called?
Then the headcode info which must now be sent to York - what is that data called?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks John - I didn't express my self properly.
The devices fixed to the sleepers that read the head code from a passing train - what are they called?
Then the headcode info which must now be sent to York - what is that data called?

There are no such devices. Headcodes are generally entered manually by the signaller, or by automatic code insertion (ACI - software used in more modern signalling like York ROC), at the train's origin. That headcode is automatically stepped forwards into the next signal's berth when the train is detected as passing a signal. When a train passes from one signal box's area of control to the next, a data link will pass on the headcode.

There is only a very limited amount of data passed between trains and beacons attached to sleepers in traditional British signalling. You have AWS ramps, TPWS loops, APCO beacons, C-ASDO beacons and neutral section magnets. That's about it. Nothing to do with the headcode in any of those.

 

[liam456]

Maybe you're asking about train detection methods? And how the data gets from track circuits/axle counters/e.t.c. to King's Cross PSB? (and soon to be York ROC)

 

[Mcq]

Yes I think I am.
I had always thought a train had its headcode entered into its system by the driver and then it was passed down to sensors that it passed.
For instance tonight as trains turned round at Gordon Hill they came in with their usual 2*** code then changed on the spot to a 5*** code while they shunted over to the other platform and then changed to another 2*** code to head back to Stevenage.
Is there no fixed relationship between the train and its code, does it simply rely on track sensors not 'loosing' count of it along the way?
Sometimes trains sit in Hertford North sidings all night.

Sorry if this is too off topic.

 

[snowball]

When track circuits or axle counters show the train has moved from one stretch to the next, equipment in the signal box passes the train description on. Nothing on the track picks up the headcode from the train. See the post by Watershed above.

 

[Mcq]

Well I never - talk about learn something everyday - thank you for spending your Saturday night explaining.
So getting back on subject before the 'mod' tells me off - this presumably means that all such circuits or counters have to be re-routed to York from KX PB on 26th April - as per Shwam3's post above.

Thank you again.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well I never - talk about learn something everyday - thank you for spending your Saturday night explaining.
So getting back on subject before the 'mod' tells me off - this presumably means that all such circuits or counters have to be re-routed to York from KX PB on 26th April - as per Shwam3's post above.

Thank you again.

The equipment in the controlling signalbox that does this is known as a Train Describer. This picks up the ‘signals’ (or messages) from the signalling system and determines where the headcode for each train should be.

 

[Mcq]

Thanks Bald Rick - I find it amazing that the train and 'Describer' never loose 'sync' even over a long or complex journey.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks Bald Rick - I find it amazing that the train and 'Describer' never loose 'sync' even over a long or complex journey.

Sometimes they do!

But usually, it’s simply a case of sequential operation. If train 1A01 is in train detection berth ‘100’ it can only go to ‘99’ or ‘101’. So, when ‘101’ detects the train, it must be 1A01, and the headcode steps across. And so on.

 

[Mcq]

Got it - thanks - so none of this new European signalling being brought in on the EMCL for instance, changes this particular process.

 

[Tempest Malice]

this presumably means that all such circuits or counters have to be re-routed to York from KX PB on 26th April

Not exactly. Each train detection section (I believe they are all track circuits at Kings cross but it's not impossible some axle counters have slipped in where I've not been looking) is wired to a local interlocking. Each interlocking is linked via a single connection to the control centre, and it is only this connection that needs re-routing during a re-control. Now as I understood previously (though seems to have slightly changed order of operations wise), the works at kings cross itself are more complex as they are completely building a new railway at the station (moving most the pointwork to the other end of gasworks tunnels and when doing this everything from the interlocking downwards is going in brand new.) For the earlier re-control of the north end of kings cross PSB's area to York last summer (roughly the Hitchin to New Barnet area) the existing interlockings were left in place and it was just the data channels to them that were re-routed to york from their existing locations. So no changes to actual wiring anywhere as these connections go over NR's configurable Fibre Transmission Network.