East Coast Trains: What are your hopes, fears and predictions?

[221101 Voyager]

Is there any details as to what the livery will be like on 803s yet, any photos or artist impressions etc?

Has one unit even been built yet?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Is there any details as to what the livery will be like on 803s yet, any photos or artist impressions etc?

Has one unit even been built yet?

Think it will be a royal blue & navy blue combination as seen in ECT's likely pre-launch logo and there was a photo of the 803's first shell went online this was in royal blue.

FirstGroup has quite a bit of their TOCs in blue - SWR, TPE, HT and now ECT - I was hoping they'd go for a different colour palette for ECT as done with Avanti

 

[221101 Voyager]

Think it will be a royal blue & navy blue combination as seen in ECT's likely pre-launch logo and there was a photo of the 803's first shell went online this was in royal blue.

FirstGroup has quite a bit of their TOCs in blue - SWR, TPE, HT and now ECT - I was hoping they'd go for a different colour palette for ECT as done with Avanti

Here is a little diagram I made so we can see a whole train in it's unbranded guise.

Don't know if it'll have a yellow or black front yet so left it yellow anyways.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Here is a little diagram I made so we can see a whole train in it's unbranded guise.
View attachment 90592
Don't know if it'll have a yellow or black front yet so left it yellow anyways.

Yep, spot on, something like that. Probably some navy blue & white swirls on the royal blue body. I think yellow end fronts to stand apart where they will operate alongside HT and TPE which have black fronts also the new Avanti IETs if they come with black too. Interesting though, time will tell!

 

[Bald Rick]

I do find it funny that whilst many people are asking questions and making educated guesses about how ECTL will segment their market and maximise revenue, others are worried about what colour the trains will be The broad church of railway enthusiasm.

 

[221101 Voyager]

I do find it funny that whilst many people are asking questions and making educated guesses about how ECTL will segment their market and maximise revenue, others are worried about what colour the trains will be The broad church of railway enthusiasm.

I find it funny too!

I‘m not fussed how ETCL segment their market or maximise revenue.

Like you say I'm more interested in what the trains will look like and what they'd be like to travel on.

Does anyone know whether these trains will have the seating like the Avanti units or will 803s have the same pretty meh seats that all 800-802s have?

 

[800001]

I find it funny too!

I‘m not fussed how ETCL segment their market or maximise revenue.

Like you say I'm more interested in what the trains will look like and what they'd be like to travel on.

Does anyone know whether these trains will have the seating like the Avanti units or will 803s have the same pretty meh seats that all 800-802s have?

Hopefully not too long to find out. As they are now ubderdoing single car testing at Newton Aycliffe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do find it funny that whilst many people are asking questions and making educated guesses about how ECTL will segment their market and maximise revenue, others are worried about what colour the trains will be The broad church of railway enthusiasm.

In other areas too.

Asked "what new car did you get", some will say "a blue one", while others will say "a Vauxhall Astra 1.8SRi hatchback", or somesuch.

 

[takno]

Does anyone know whether these trains will have the seating like the Avanti units or will 803s have the same pretty meh seats that all 800-802s have?

If they've got decent seats then they can charge triple the 25 quid pricing and they've got my business. The Azuma seating has got me dreading what used to be a pleasant journey

 

[Domh245]

Is there any details as to what the livery will be like on 803s yet, any photos or artist impressions etc?

Has one unit even been built yet?

There was what appeared to be a stylised one at a few points in the background of the "welcome to ECTL" video that was posted a few weeks ago, eg around 2:45

 

[YorksLad12]

They may of course offer exactly that, namely paid seat selection otherwise you get something random. Though I suspect you're likely to be in luck as I'd figure that tables would cost more, as might any non-priority extra legroom seats.

If I were them I'd keep back the bad seats (non-window-aligned or the narrow ones against the door pockets if they're having those) to allocate "randomly", as fewer people will pay for those, and a high risk of getting one might encourage more people to pay for selection.

Last time I flew (2007) I reserved seats on the way out and back, two together, one with a window. Yes it cost more, but looking at the same people were randomly squished together in the centre seats, money well spent.

Is it likely that they will actually enforce seat reservations then? (e.g. if your ticket says seat B34 you MUST sit in B34)?
Currently there aren't any TOCs which - in normal times, anyway - will insist you move if you have a reservation for a seat other than the one you have taken.

If East Coast Trains are planning on having a relatively high loading factor, then you'll be de-facto restricted to your reserved seat by virtue of all the others being allocated anyway.

When you arrive at a station, set the system to show all seats as reserved if travel is by reservation only. People will look at the red/green lights, not read the text. But easier to just walk down the carriage and enforce if necessary.

 

[southern442]

I'm not sure that is the main thing they're competing against, partly because there's only one of those (plus a NatEx doing the same) so you're only talking a maximum of about 100 passengers per day or so, and because passengers who are willing to take an overnight coach journey are as far budget as you can get without not bothering at all (an overnight seated coach really is the lowest "class" of travel conceivable short of kipping in the back of a bin lorry), so they will likely not manage to succeed in competing with that on price.

I travel by coach occasionally, purely for price reasons. It is somewhat slow and uncomfortable, but to me it is worth it because you can get London-Bristol from about £5 one way if you're lucky. Obviously being someone who prefers even the lowest form of train travel to most other public transport, I would be happy paying that amount of money (or at least, coach-level prices) for a stopping 2+3 seat long-distance train running alongside a much faster intercity premium service, and I'm sure I can't be the only one.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

If ECT is going to be the "Megabus on rails" a la Ouigo - cheap & cheerful then I wouldn't set the bar high for the seating so probably expect to see the usual Sophias or "luxury" ironing boards with extra cushioning

There was what appeared to be a stylised one at a few points in the background of the "welcome to ECTL" video that was posted a few weeks ago, eg around 2:45

Thanks for that. Royal blue seems to be the main colour for definite. Quite interesting to see what the final or main branding will look like by the time ECT launches

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously being someone who prefers even the lowest form of train travel to most other public transport, I would be happy paying that amount of money (or at least, coach-level prices) for a stopping 2+3 seat long-distance train running alongside a much faster intercity premium service, and I'm sure I can't be the only one.

That is in essence the market that LNR's long distance services are in, and it's not a small one - essentially "anything's better than a coach even if it's slow, 3+2 seated and full and standing". I think it's a bit different from what ECT are going for, which I think is more aimed at easyJet and Ryanair, which even if it's 1p is going to cost a fair whack more than a coach by the time you've got to/from the airport at both ends.

 

[paul1609]

That is in essence the market that LNR's long distance services are in, and it's not a small one - essentially "anything's better than a coach even if it's slow, 3+2 seated and full and standing". I think it's a bit different from what ECT are going for, which I think is more aimed at easyJet and Ryanair, which even if it's 1p is going to cost a fair whack more than a coach by the time you've got to/from the airport at both ends.

The getting to and fro the airports cost is a bit of a red herring. An Anytime single to Gatwick Airport for me is £17.70, London Kings Cross is £43.40. Even in the London Outer Zones right in to Croydon its roughly the same price to Gatwick as to a North London terminal. Similar I guess for Essex and Stansted and for West London and Heathrow. Even at the destination Ive flown to Central Belt Airports hundreds of times but the times Ive got on the airport bus to the city centre maybe a handful.

 

[takno]

The getting to and fro the airports cost is a bit of a red herring. An Anytime single to Gatwick Airport for me is £17.70, London Kings Cross is £43.40. Even in the London Outer Zones right in to Croydon its roughly the same price to Gatwick as to a North London terminal. Similar I guess for Essex and Stansted and for West London and Heathrow. Even at the destination Ive flown to Central Belt Airports hundreds of times but the times Ive got on the airport bus to the city centre maybe a handful.

It may be a red herring for you, but far and away the most common use case for London - Edinburgh travel involves somebody going between greater London and the Edinburgh public transport area. Even if people are getting public transport further westwards or northwards from Edinburgh airport, the extra airport fees on the tram and buses all but guarantee that it will be cheaper to get into town than to the airport

In any case, to get decent prices on flights you can't afford to be picky about which airport you fly to in London. Your use-case requires a flight to Gatwick for the airport to be cheaper for example, but Gatwick is one of the weaker markets, and has only enjoyed super-cheap flights because they struggle to fill them at any price. If BA make good on their threats, Gatwick will have very few flights to Edinburgh.

 

[Bald Rick]

The getting to and fro the airports cost is a bit of a red herring. An Anytime single to Gatwick Airport for me is £17.70, London Kings Cross is £43.40. Even in the London Outer Zones right in to Croydon its roughly the same price to Gatwick as to a North London terminal. Similar I guess for Essex and Stansted and for West London and Heathrow. Even at the destination Ive flown to Central Belt Airports hundreds of times but the times Ive got on the airport bus to the city centre maybe a handful.

Not everyone is in that position though. There’s an awful lot of people in inner London, various parts of outer London and the Home Counties where it is substantially cheaper to get to Kings Cross / Stevenage than to any airport. Similarly at the other end.

 

[greyman42]

Does anyone know whether these trains will have the seating like the Avanti units or will 803s have the same pretty meh seats that all 800-802s have?

If they put a decent seat in they could take passengers from LNER on this basis alone.

 

[paul1609]

Not everyone is in that position though. There’s an awful lot of people in inner London, various parts of outer London and the Home Counties where it is substantially cheaper to get to Kings Cross / Stevenage than to any airport. Similarly at the other end.

I bet if you were to work it out a significant percentage of the population of the South East has cheaper access to an airport than to Kings Cross/ Stevenage. Even where that's not the case the cost is not really that significant taking an extreme example of London Bridge the anytime fare to Gatwick is £12.20 as opposed to £3.30 to kings Cross.

It may be a red herring for you, but far and away the most common use case for London - Edinburgh travel involves somebody going between greater London and the Edinburgh public transport area. Even if people are getting public transport further westwards or northwards from Edinburgh airport, the extra airport fees on the tram and buses all but guarantee that it will be cheaper to get into town than to the airport

My destination is always Falkirk, Fyfe or further north. Im always getting a hire car at the airport or the 747 bus to Inverkeithing or Ferry Toll.

 

[Bald Rick]

I bet if you were to work it out a significant percentage of the population of the South East has cheaper access to an airport than to Kings Cross/ Stevenage. Even where that's not the case the cost is not really that significant taking an extreme example of London Bridge the anytime fare to Gatwick is £12.20 as opposed to £3.30 to kings Cross.

I also bet a significant percentage has cheaper access to KGX and Stevenage ... and I’ll bet a further fiver that a significant percentage of people prefer the rail experience (no check in, no hanging around terminals, no need to transfer at at least one end) than the rail experience.

It’s not about what’s cheaper / easier / better for ‘most people’ - it’s about what’s cheaper / easier / better for *enough* people to make the service profitable.

 

[KJ83]

I've heard that they are NOT the standard seats and they are actually really smart... as is the whole passenger saloon. But don't have any specifics

 

[221101 Voyager]

If they put a decent seat in they could take passengers from LNER on this basis alone.

True that.

There was what appeared to be a stylised one at a few points in the background of the "welcome to ECTL" video that was posted a few weeks ago, eg around 2:45

Here is a couple of variants of a livery loosely based on that stylised one in the East Coast Trains Limited video.

I've heard that they are NOT the standard seats and they are actually really smart... as is the whole passenger saloon. But don't have any specifics

That's good on the interiors. Let's wait and see what the trains look like when we see them in real life.

 

[HarryL]

Here is a couple of variants of a livery loosely based on that stylised one in the East Coast Trains Limited video.

I suppose there's probably not much stopping them from doing it, but it would be rather cheeky of them to go with a livery so close to the LNER one.

The graphic in the video looks to me like a generic clipart photo they quickly put together rather than an intended design, it only very loosely resembles an 803, albeit I might have missed something since I skipped through the video.

 

[Starmill]

If they choose to have an airline style policy of charging for allocation based on the merits of particular seats, yes, I'd imagine so. The whole thing is to be modelled on a low-cost airline.

Do any low-cost airlines actually bother to enforce seat changes? I'm pretty sure their staff don't notice or care if people switch their seat after take-off to be a tad comfier.

Of course, what some people do is log in as if to amend their seat on their booking 5 minutes before check-in closes, see if any seats are still unsold and make a note of the numbers, then just plonk themselves there with confidence as if it is their booked seat in the first place. If the seat hasn't been booked in that last 5 minutes then you're sorted.

Obviously this doesn't guarantee anything but then that's kind of the point.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

As someone who used to work for Durham Travel on National Express service 591 London-Edinburgh I can recall the service coach (was usually a 44 seat Plaxton Premier Expressliner reg M34KAX N22DTS N23RTN P23/24WNL P56-9XNL or a Scania 113 VanHool Alisée M34-7HJR) could have anything from 2 to as many as 10 duplicates on the night time run on a daily basis. That's just the 591, not counting the other Scotland routes which were worked by the likes of Trathens or Stuart's of Carluke which were usually double decker neoplan or VanHool examples.
The vast chunk of this market from my recollections were budget travellers, i.e late teen/twentysomethings student and tourist from the UK and Europe.
If first are going after this market they could just simply introduce their own coaches under the greyhound banner but they won't necessarily get into Victoria Coach Station. However there is a massive time advantage here. The train would have arrived in Edinburgh before the coaches have changed crews at Washington Services. That is a good 3 hour time advantage. Plus how many coaches would be needed to match the capacity of one 803? And how many crews to man each coach given each has a 8 hour daily driving limit plus one hour break and that doesn't take in to account dead driving i.e empty to a rest point (Portobello Truck stop for example)
A bold move, especially during the likes of Edinburgh military tattoo, fringe, and Hogmanay plus the numerous events held in London that attract visitors which required massive duplications of coaches to meet demand and LNER and Avante will find they have full and standing trains and Ryanair and easyJet flights booked out months in advance and unable to meet demand. Will 5 cars be enough? Only time will tell but marketed right this could be a rail industry beneficial game changer which LNER will also benefit from

 

[BayPaul]

Do any low-cost airlines actually bother to enforce seat changes? I'm pretty sure their staff don't notice or care if people switch their seat after take-off to be a tad comfier.

Of course, what some people do is log in as if to amend their seat on their booking 5 minutes before check-in closes, see if any seats are still unsold and make a note of the numbers, then just plonk themselves there with confidence as if it is their booked seat in the first place. If the seat hasn't been booked in that last 5 minutes then you're sorted.

Obviously this doesn't guarantee anything but then that's kind of the point.

From (probably far too much for my own good) experience on a range of budget airlines, it is rare for the back 3/4 of the plane to have enough empty seats to make this regularly practical, and I have certainly seen enforcement of the premium seats up front. I suspect that they are also quite happy for an occasional passenger to play the system, if it keeps them feeling superior and coming back!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do any low-cost airlines actually bother to enforce seat changes? I'm pretty sure their staff don't notice or care if people switch their seat after take-off to be a tad comfier.

Some crews look out for people moving to the front row or exit row, but they probably care less about switching from a middle to a window or similar. On easyJet they do* have the ability to charge on board for upgraded seats, so I'd imagine they will be looking out to get their commission!

* I typed that then realised it should be a pun, because their on board announcements are full of "we do do X"

 

[route101]

Some crews look out for people moving to the front row or exit row, but they probably care less about switching from a middle to a window or similar. On easyJet they do* have the ability to charge on board for upgraded seats, so I'd imagine they will be looking out to get their commission!

* I typed that then realised it should be a pun, because their on board announcements are full of "we do do X"

I once moved seats in a KLM Fokker 70, got told to move back as they cost extra.

 

[221101 Voyager]

I suppose there's probably not much stopping them from doing it, but it would be rather cheeky of them to go with a livery so close to the LNER one.

The graphic in the video looks to me like a generic clipart photo they quickly put together rather than an intended design, it only very loosely resembles an 803, albeit I might have missed something since I skipped through the video.

It is similar to LNER but the colour scheme and swoosh are very different.

I just thought I’d make them to see what their colour scheme could be like based on the best information I had available which was that video.

Cant wait to see the official colour scheme and interiors as I’ve heard good things about them.

 

[Master29]

Given that 80% of their market is going to be new to rail, from coach and air, airline seating would be the 80%'s expectation, take the tables out of the trailer coaches, shouldn't be a problem fitting another 12 seats taking the 3 trailers to 100 seats- 50 in each of the end cars, job done.

So where is the proposed buffet going?