Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Jordan Adam]

I can’t speak for West Lothian as I don’t live out there but I can see the 276 extension As a sensible thing for now since it links the vaccine centre, I’m suprised they haven’t rerouted the 280 or 281 up that way yet though!

The issue is more the fact that west of Livingston the 276 doesn't serve anywhere of particularly high population other than Blackburn which already has the four buses per hour linking it to Bathgate and The Pyramids, all other settlements along the route are small villages. I agree They would've been much better rerouting the 280 or 281 via The Pyramids. It's kind of in the same position as the EX2 was where theoretically if you look at a network map it looks like a good idea, but when you consider supply vs demand it doesn't add up. There's been many routes covering the Loganlea - Blackburn - Bathgate corridor over the years and they've never lasted long, i highly doubt the vaccination centre which most people are only going to visit three times at most in a spread out period will make much difference to that.

Personally I don't think there is the market out there for either the 275 or the 276. I see endless numbers of totally empty double deckers on the 2 routes every day. That's in and around Broxburn - not sure if it picks up business in other areas? Is frightening how much money is being spent on running completely empty buses around. LCB keep tinkering with these 2 routes trying to find passengers and then go and pull the X38 which was picking up passengers pre COVID and the First X38 is now becoming busier again as some semblance of normal life returns. This at a time when the First X38 is unpopular and unreliable, certainly in Winchburgh where I am, which is one of the biggest areas of housing development in the UK with a massive ongoing population increase and the much needed planned railway station keeping being pushed back with large amounts of commuter journeys in and out of Edinburgh with new A8 bus lanes to tap into along the Winchburgh/Kirkliston/RBS/corridor. Questionable and baffling decision making in my opinion.

I would be inclined to agree. My point was more that i was surprised they were extending the 276 rather than reinstating (or partially reinstating) the Broxburn - Edinburgh Park section of the 275. Regarding the X38 i'll reply in the FSE thread as that discussion is likely off topic here. Although what i would say as you bring up Winchburgh is that housing development doesn't nesserally equal thriving bus use, the issues many new areas face when it comes to public transport is that they're bought by younger people who are starting families and already drive cars, the age demographic tends to be fairly homogeneous so there's very few over 65s or under 25s, i mention this as they tend to be the main bus users. It really takes at least 10-20 years before the age range spreads out and bus use increases as those kids becomes more independent teenagers and some residents reach retirement age. That's not to say there won't be bus use, but the point is it's likely not going to be as high as you'd expect for the size of population.

I also see the 275 passing through my area completely empty most of the time. Think the only bit of it that actually serves a purpose at the moment is Seafield - Blackburn - Pyramids - Wester Inch - Bathgate, and even then is predominantly OAP passes. The issue seems to be with the 276 is on it's western end from Livingston Bus Terminal - Loganlea is the 26/A is always just a few minutes ahead of it, combined with 6 buses an hour (2x 276, 4 x 26/A) the whole corridor is greatly overserved.

There's also the 34A to Lanark which runs hourly most of the day so that's up to 7 buses per hour, pre-covid it would've been even more

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Absolutely agree, think an extension to Winchburgh for either 275 or 276 would be beneficial too, or maybe the 600 could cover it as it passes through livingston quicker than either of the LC routes

the 275 should honestly be rerouted to service Winchburgh/Kirkliston and extend to the Gyle to challenge the 600, since LCB a are not bringing back the X38 and that way Kirkliston residents could swap for an X18/200 or any bus at the Gyle. But I doubt they’ll do it

 

[Graham Alexand]

Absolutely agree, think an extension to Winchburgh for either 275 or 276 would be beneficial too

Probably a good way to do it would be a one way loop around. So once at Broxburn Greendykes Junction turn onto Greendykes Road then make their way through Winchburgh/ Kirkliston then back to Broxburn as to still incorporate the lidl portion of the route (at Broxburn East Main Street, next to Industrial Estate) and have the other bus go the opposite way around?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

There’s a new vaccine centre at the former RBS building in Redheughs Avenue now, so either the 275 or 276 could serve that and terminate at Edinburgh Park Station as the 275 did before, not sure how long it’s been open but possibly worthwhile. The other route in my view would be better not serving East Mains but running direct up to Winchburgh, Kirkliston and in the long run onto the Airport (although that would take quite some time before it’d be worthwhile) OR South Queensferry - but that’s been tried quite a few times already and hasn’t worked so it probably isn’t the one to go for. Both routes could serve Pumpherston to maintain links - although I’m not sure it needs 4 per hour each way.

Whatever (if anything) changes I’m sure it’ll be changed again. The 276 change makes sense for the short term, I’m not necessarily sure once hopefully things change it will be running beyond Loganlea again.


For those wondering why the X38 was withdrawn and the existing routes kept/altered ahead of it I wonder if dead mileage with buses and driver changeovers had something to do with it? I imagine vans were used much like the ECB X7? The closest point on the route from the depot looks to have been around around 6-7 miles away but it may have been the terminus in Linlithgow Bridge that was the changeover point, I never used the route that far out so I’m not entirely sure how the system worked so may not be 100% bang on.

 

[Graham Alexand]

Both routes could serve Pumpherston to maintain links - although I’m not sure it needs 4 per hour each way.

Whatever (if anything) changes I’m sure it’ll be changed again. The 276 change makes sense for the short term, I’m not necessarily sure once hopefully things change it will be running beyond Loganlea again.

I wish that the 276 came to Pumpherston but it stops at Uphall Station and Grange Road so its close enough I guess.

I'm starting to think that the 276 will be staying for quite a while yet, probably even till next year because I don't think that as many people will be travelling to the city this year.

Not to to spark any arguments but whenever LothianCountry puts a social media update there are lots of people asking about the X38, LothianCountry usually say something along the lines of "if anything changes it will be straight onto here", although the registry has expired the X38 may not be completely gone.

 

[DunsBus]

I wish that the 276 came to Pumpherston but it stops at Uphall Station and Grange Road so its close enough I guess.

I'm starting to think that the 276 will be staying for quite a while yet, probably even till next year because I don't think that as many people will be travelling to the city this year.

Not to to spark any arguments but whenever LothianCountry puts a social media update there are lots of people asking about the X38, LothianCountry usually say something along the lines of "if anything changes it will be straight onto here", although the registry has expired the X38 may not be completely gone.

We've already been through this regarding the X17. The X38 is officially dead as the registration for it was cancelled a few weeks ago. If a service registration is shown as having expired, and has subsequently been cancelled, then the service is gone. Finito. Kaput. The X38 will not be coming back.

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

The issue is more the fact that west of Livingston the 276 doesn't serve anywhere of particularly high population other than Blackburn which already has the four buses per hour linking it to Bathgate and The Pyramids, all other settlements along the route are small villages. I agree They would've been much better rerouting the 280 or 281 via The Pyramids. It's kind of in the same position as the EX2 was where theoretically if you look at a network map it looks like a good idea, but when you consider supply vs demand it doesn't add up. There's been many routes covering the Loganlea - Blackburn - Bathgate corridor over the years and they've never lasted long, i highly doubt the vaccination centre which most people are only going to visit three times at most in a spread out period will make much difference to that.

I would be inclined to agree. My point was more that i was surprised they were extending the 276 rather than reinstating (or partially reinstating) the Broxburn - Edinburgh Park section of the 275. Regarding the X38 i'll reply in the FSE thread as that discussion is likely off topic here. Although what i would say as you bring up Winchburgh is that housing development doesn't nesserally equal thriving bus use, the issues many new areas face when it comes to public transport is that they're bought by younger people who are starting families and already drive cars, the age demographic tends to be fairly homogeneous so there's very few over 65s or under 25s, i mention this as they tend to be the main bus users. It really takes at least 10-20 years before the age range spreads out and bus use increases as those kids becomes more independent teenagers and some residents reach retirement age. That's not to say there won't be bus use, but the point is it's likely not going to be as high as you'd expect for the size of population.

There's also the 34A to Lanark which runs hourly most of the day so that's up to 7 buses per hour, pre-covid it would've been even more

34A is an infrequent service, just the old 77 from Lanark

 

[Baileygirl]

the 275 should honestly be rerouted to service Winchburgh/Kirkliston and extend to the Gyle to challenge the 600, since LCB a are not bringing back the X38 and that way Kirkliston residents could swap for an X18/200 or any bus at the Gyle. But I doubt they’ll do it

There is hardly any demand on the First 600 between Broxburn and Winchburgh and even less to Kirkliston, so an extension of the 275/276 this way would be another loss maker. They could possibly extend it to the west of Winchburgh to serve the new houses.

 

[Jordan Adam]

34A is an infrequent service, just the old 77 from Lanark

It runs hourly during the day so not that infrequent. Regardless when you include it there's still 7 buses per hour between West Calder and Livingston.

There is hardly any demand on the First 600 between Broxburn and Winchburgh and even less to Kirkliston, so an extension of the 275/276 this way would be another loss maker. They could possibly extend it to the west of Winchburgh to serve the new houses.

Keep in mind the 600 is also part subsidised through housing development grants too.

 

[mb88]

For those wondering why the X38 was withdrawn and the existing routes kept/altered ahead of it I wonder if dead mileage with buses and driver changeovers had something to do with it? I imagine vans were used much like the ECB X7? The closest point on the route from the depot looks to have been around around 6-7 miles away but it may have been the terminus in Linlithgow Bridge that was the changeover point, I never used the route that far out so I’m not entirely sure how the system worked so may not be 100% bang on.

Driver changeovers were at Bridgend road end. Was quite a trek in a van to Uphall then up through Ecclesmachan and Threemiletown. Although not as far as Queensferry for 43 changeovers.

With regards to the 276 extension, what no one has mentioned so far is the fact it provides a quicker link between Polbeth/West Calder/Addiewell and Bathgate than the First 26 which goes via Stoneyburn, Fauldhouse and Whitburn. Although the fact it is only hourly perhaps negates any benefit this may provide.

 

[CN04NRJ]

We've already been through this regarding the X17. The X38 is officially dead as the registration for it was cancelled a few weeks ago. If a service registration is shown as having expired, and has subsequently been cancelled, then the service is gone. Finito. Kaput. The X38 will not be coming back.

Almost certainly a moot point, but services can be re-registered

 

[Jordan Adam]

With regards to the 276 extension, what no one has mentioned so far is the fact it provides a quicker link between Polbeth/West Calder/Addiewell and Bathgate than the First 26 which goes via Stoneyburn, Fauldhouse and Whitburn. Although the fact it is only hourly perhaps negates any benefit this may provide.

Perhaps because the faster link is fairly insignificant based on the lack of overall demand? As has been mentioned this service has existed under subsidy for years by other operators under different variations and never managed to survive as there's just not the demand.

 

[Humberscot]

The issue is more the fact that west of Livingston the 276 doesn't serve anywhere of particularly high population other than Blackburn which already has the four buses per hour linking it to Bathgate and The Pyramids, all other settlements along the route are small villages. I agree They would've been much better rerouting the 280 or 281 via The Pyramids. It's kind of in the same position as the EX2 was where theoretically if you look at a network map it looks like a good idea, but when you consider supply vs demand it doesn't add up. There's been many routes covering the Loganlea - Blackburn - Bathgate corridor over the years and they've never lasted long, i highly doubt the vaccination centre which most people are only going to visit three times at most in a spread out period will make much difference to that.

I would be inclined to agree. My point was more that i was surprised they were extending the 276 rather than reinstating (or partially reinstating) the Broxburn - Edinburgh Park section of the 275. Regarding the X38 i'll reply in the FSE thread as that discussion is likely off topic here. Although what i would say as you bring up Winchburgh is that housing development doesn't nesserally equal thriving bus use, the issues many new areas face when it comes to public transport is that they're bought by younger people who are starting families and already drive cars, the age demographic tends to be fairly homogeneous so there's very few over 65s or under 25s, i mention this as they tend to be the main bus users. It really takes at least 10-20 years before the age range spreads out and bus use increases as those kids becomes more independent teenagers and some residents reach retirement age. That's not to say there won't be bus use, but the point is it's likely not going to be as high as you'd expect for the size of population.

There's also the 34A to Lanark which runs hourly most of the day so that's up to 7 buses per hour, pre-covid it would've been even more

The reason why I mentioned Winchburgh is because whilst you're right that this is a popular area for young families who do have at least 1 family car, there was, pre-COVID at least, a real demand for daily commutes into Edinburgh where it is not possible to park the car. Now how much of this market comes back when some semblance of normality returns remains to be seen but the First X38's loadings are already picking up. There is business to be picked up here for LCB unlike in some of the areas where endless processions of very smart green and cream double deckers glide around completely empty.

 

[route101]

34A is an infrequent service, just the old 77 from Lanark

34A goes via Stane, the 77 did not.

 

[Bus9120UK]

The 400MMC's are now confirmed to be 601+ It looks like they are using the normal logos and not the Lothiancity logos as seen on 400XLB's, which is a good step in my opinion. Looking smart.

 

[OmniCity999]

The 400MMC's are now confirmed to be 601+ https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=181091793861365&set=g.139273103178945 (Not my photo which is why I linked it) Looks like they are using the normal logos and not the Lothiancity logos as seen on 400XLB's, which is a good step in my opinion. Looking smart.

Back to Lothian and reusing fleetnumbers. Helps when you've not got someone at the top making bizarre decisions. If it aint broke and all that.

 

[Graham Alexand]

The 400MMC's are now confirmed to be 601+ https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=181091793861365&set=g.139273103178945 (Not my photo which is why I linked it) Looks like they are using the normal logos and not the Lothiancity logos as seen on 400XLB's, which is a good step in my opinion. Looking smart.

I don't have a grudge against it or anything but what was the point of the Lothiancity thing when it was only used on the Enviro400XLB's does anyone know?

 

[Bus9120UK]

I don't have a grudge against it or anything but what was the point of the Lothiancity thing when it was only used on the Enviro400XLB's does anyone know?

To be fair, there was no point of it existing!

 

[GusB]

Please be mindful when posting photos from sites like Facebook. If you're a member of a closed group the links will not work for anyone who is not a member of the group, nor a member of Facebook at all. Also bear in mind that if it's not your own image, you must have permission to post it, and also credit the original photographer.

 

[Graham Alexand]

It looks like that more Lothian Wright Eclipse Urban 2's are joining the fleet, thats 190, SN13 BFV now with them.

The attached image below is of SN13 BFV on bustimes.org appearing on a Lothian Country service 281.



Edit!!

Since then it seems that 188, SN13 BFO has joined.

The attached image below is of SN13 BFO on bustimes.org appearing on a Lothian Country service 281.

 

[Lothianbus703]

I wonder if this is temporary

 

[CN04NRJ]

The reason why I mentioned Winchburgh is because whilst you're right that this is a popular area for young families who do have at least 1 family car, there was, pre-COVID at least, a real demand for daily commutes into Edinburgh where it is not possible to park the car. Now how much of this market comes back when some semblance of normality returns remains to be seen but the First X38's loadings are already picking up. There is business to be picked up here for LCB unlike in some of the areas where endless processions of very smart green and cream double deckers glide around completely empty.

Which section? I haven't seen any more than 3-4 people on it anywhere within the Edinburgh boundary for months.

When the LCB X38 was running forum posters were saying (rightly) that it wouldn't last and there was no demand for it. Now demand is allegedly (?) returning the same people are saying LCB should still be running it?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The route of the X38 for me was fine - maybe a few could’ve served Bridgend but other than that it was fine. Overall though I thought it was brought in too late for it to make any real impact, I’m sure there are reasons for doing it later but for me if it was going to work the period when First’s X38 was less frequent would’ve been the best chance of success.

 

[Humberscot]

Which section? I haven't seen any more than 3-4 people on it anywhere within the Edinburgh boundary for months.

When the LCB X38 was running forum posters were saying (rightly) that it wouldn't last and there was no demand for it. Now demand is allegedly (?) returning the same people are saying LCB should still be running it?

Loadings have definitely picked up in the last couple of weeks so I'm not sure where you're getting 3-4 people from - there were 6 people waiting at various busstops in Winchburgh this morning at 05:30 for the trip into Edinburgh. The point I am making with Winchburgh is that, unlike some other areas where LCB has tried to pick upbusiness

Which section? I haven't seen any more than 3-4 people on it anywhere within the Edinburgh boundary for months.

When the LCB X38 was running forum posters were saying (rightly) that it wouldn't last and there was no demand for it. Now demand is allegedly (?) returning the same people are saying LCB should still be running it?

Loadings have definitely picked up in the last couple of weeks so I'm not sure where you're getting 3-4 people from - there were 6 people waiting at various busstops in Winchburgh this morning at 05:30 for the trip into Edinburgh. The point I am making with Winchburgh is that, unlike some other areas where LCB has tried to pick up business, there is a market here to tap into. It remains to be seen what the world will look like post COVID in terms of people's working arrangements but I think thatc if LCB is going to work anywhere, Winchburgh is as good a place as anywhere.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Loadings have definitely picked up in the last couple of weeks so I'm not sure where you're getting 3-4 people from - there were 6 people waiting at various busstops in Winchburgh this morning at 05:30 for the trip into Edinburgh. The point I am making with Winchburgh is that, unlike some other areas where LCB has tried to pick upbusiness

Loadings have definitely picked up in the last couple of weeks so I'm not sure where you're getting 3-4 people from - there were 6 people waiting at various busstops in Winchburgh this morning at 05:30 for the trip into Edinburgh. The point I am making with Winchburgh is that, unlike some other areas where LCB has tried to pick up business, there is a market here to tap into. It remains to be seen what the world will look like post COVID in terms of people's working arrangements but I think thatc if LCB is going to work anywhere, Winchburgh is as good a place as anywhere.

I must be seeing things then (or not!)?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Loadings have definitely picked up in the last couple of weeks so I'm not sure where you're getting 3-4 people from - there were 6 people waiting at various busstops in Winchburgh this morning at 05:30 for the trip into Edinburgh. The point I am making with Winchburgh is that, unlike some other areas where LCB has tried to pick up business, there is a market here to tap into. It remains to be seen what the world will look like post COVID in terms of people's working arrangements but I think thatc if LCB is going to work anywhere, Winchburgh is as good a place as anywhere.

I know it heavily divides opinion but i just cannot see LCB returning to Winchburgh in the near future, maybe in 10 years time, but in the short-term it just won't happen. Lothian are not in the position to be taking all these risks anymore and need to scale back and cut all unnecessary expenses if they want to survive, that's not even talking about the potential long term impact of Covid-19 which we still don't really know. We've already seen some measures such as the permanent withdrawal of the EX2/X38, the reduction in buses between Edinburgh and Broxburn and changes to the new vehicle orders.

Lothian should've launched the X38 when first reduced the 38 to half hourly, but yet they waited until First had increased the 38 back to 15 minute frequency and doubled the frequency on the 600. I have no doubt Lothian loosing the 20 and 63 was just another nail in the coffin, that being said they didn't even bother to bid for one of them! Likewise with the EX1 they should've had it going to Whitburn via Boghall and Blackburn, while the EX2 should've continued to Falkirk. The EX1 was essentially just a slightly quicker more expensive X18 that only went to Bathgate, while the EX2 didn't cover enough area to generate any demand.

Yes most services (not just at LCB but also within the city) have went back to near normal service, however don't expect it to last, i can see many cuts happening once the government funding ends as peoples needs and travel/work patterns have changed.

 

[Humberscot]

I must be seeing things then (or not!)?

I can only say what I see and it is a while since I've seen any X38's with as few as 3 or 4 passengers on them. Maybe they're only going as far as Kirkliston or Newbridge but I doubt it. In my opinion there is business here for a potential LCB route if LCB sticks around long enough.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I can only say what I see and it is a while since I've seen any X38's with as few as 3 or 4 passengers on them. Maybe they're only going as far as Kirkliston or Newbridge but I doubt it. In my opinion there is business here for a potential LCB route if LCB sticks around long enough.

Perhaps worth extending one of the local routes (275/276)? Run it express from City to Kirkliston/Newbridge similar to X18, but then on arrival at Winchburgh continues onto Livi and beyond.

 

[Graham Alexand]

Perhaps worth extending one of the local routes (275/276)? Run it express from City to Kirkliston/Newbridge similar to X18, but then on arrival at Winchburgh continues onto Livi and beyond.

Why not merge one of them with service 43? 43 replaces 276 then the 276 would turn into service 43 Loganlea to Edinburgh.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Why not merge one of them with service 43? 43 replaces 276 then the 276 would turn into service 43 Loganlea to Edinburgh.

Talking purely from a Winchburgh to Edinburgh service, this wouldn’t work. I think it just makes the 43 more complicated but having the 276 running up to South Queensferry may work, but has been tried and failed by First and others before.