Edinburgh Tour Operators: Bright Bus, Lothian (Majestic, Three Bridges) etc.

[overthewater]

It's a shame they won't be going for the ever popular Waverly Bridge...

And nor is Lothian. Waverly bridge is now closed off at the top end and all the tour buses have been moved.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Where is this "St Andrews Square" to which they allude?

No idea but I would guess somewhere in St Andrews? Or near Trongate Glasgow

Its the big square next to the bus station and Harvey nicks

No, that's St Andrew Square. (I suspect people have got confused with the speed most say the name and thought it was Andrews, but it's just Andrew as in the Patron saint of Scotland).

It's a shame they won't be going for the ever popular Waverly Bridge...

Or running past the Scots Monument? Not many people seem to want to see the Scott Monument

And nor is Lothian. Waverly bridge is now closed off at the top end and all the tour buses have been moved.

No, that's Waverley Bridge which has been closed off. Waverly Bridge is actually in Waverly, Missouri.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think a thread on the spelling mistakes in bus service registrations would be long and not captivating reading...

So, back to the matter in hand. How extensive are these operations going to be? With some older fleet heading to the South West, and an influx from Ensign, what is the next change and how many vehicles are we now looking at?

 

[CraigLockhart]

Edinburgh bus tours back on 30 April. Tickets from £8 and kids go free. Be interesting to see how Bright Bus respond on the price.

 

[overthewater]

Bright bus will most likley cut its fare to £8 and will continue to be happy, it's forced Lothian to slash it's tickets thus hitting it's profit margins.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Bright bus will most likley cut its fare to £8 and will continue to be happy, it's forced Lothian to slash it's tickets thus hitting it's profit margins.

Is that the sole goal of the operation, in your opinion?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is that the sole goal of the operation, in your opinion?

Don't know if it's the sole goal but it is certainly one of the main goals.

Put it another way - do you think First would have done this had Lothian not entered West Lothian?

 

[CN04NRJ]

Don't know if it's the sole goal but it is certainly one of the main goals.

Put it another way - do you think First would have done this had Lothian not entered West Lothian?

I'd imagine the business case for it is more than just 'revenge' on other operators. Seemed to be doing okay for itself before the pandemic?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'd imagine the business case for it is more than just 'revenge' on other operators. Seemed to be doing okay for itself before the pandemic?

It's not revenge.

You don't consider that it might be quite a smart move by First to have a low-cost competitive operation to adversely impact the high margin operations of the competitor that has tried to run you off the road, and that it might act as a catalyst for Lothian to withdraw their services? That doesn't chime at all?

 

[CN04NRJ]

It's not revenge.

You don't consider that it might be quite a smart move by First to have a low-cost competitive operation to adversely impact the high margin operations of the competitor that has tried to run you off the road, and that it might act as a catalyst for Lothian to withdraw their services? That doesn't chime at all?

That's exactly the point I was trying to make in not so many words, that there's more to it than 'reducing another operators profit margins' and 'retaliation' as other posters put forward.

 

[M803UYA]

It's not revenge.

You don't consider that it might be quite a smart move by First to have a low-cost competitive operation to adversely impact the high margin operations of the competitor that has tried to run you off the road, and that it might act as a catalyst for Lothian to withdraw their services? That doesn't chime at all?

To my mind, First's Edinburgh tour is a cleverly planned skimming operation which has a very low load factor needing to be achieved to break even. The lower value of the fleet helps the viability of the operation as well. It's a clever competitive response to Lothian who must be losing a fortune on their competitive West Lothian operations having incurred much more in start up costs.
It does show First's changed approach when it comes to competition, once upon a time they'd have just rolled over and let the competition get a foothold, they do respond to it now and they stand their ground. That's evidently not something Lothian banked on when launching. Even the loss of a few passengers will hurt them more on the tours operation given the modern fleet they provide for the work.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That's exactly the point I was trying to make in not so many words, that there's more to it than 'reducing another operators profit margins' and 'retaliation' as other posters put forward.

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post. It's a smart strategy to encourage Lothian to think again; I really don't think that they'd have introduced it had Lothian not entered West Lothian.

To my mind, First's Edinburgh tour is a cleverly planned skimming operation which has a very low load factor needing to be achieved to break even. The lower value of the fleet helps the viability of the operation as well. It's a clever competitive response to Lothian who must be losing a fortune on their competitive West Lothian operations having incurred much more in start up costs.
It does show First's changed approach when it comes to competition, once upon a time they'd have just rolled over and let the competition get a foothold, they do respond to it now and they stand their ground. That's evidently not something Lothian banked on when launching. Even the loss of a few passengers will hurt them more on the tours operation given the modern fleet they provide for the work.

I agree 100%. They've limited set up costs with a largely depreciated fleet, trading on their cheap and cheerful nature. It's also pretty smart as going toe to toe on Lothian's regular bus services would be tough given the customer loyalty etc. There is virtually no customer loyalty with tourists so it deals with that. Now there may be some organic growth that a cheaper tour generates but that's limited. For the most part, they will be taking trade from Lothian.

So what First is doing is taking £16 per person out of Lothian's pocket; how many West Lothian passengers do LC need to get from First to recoup that? And that's before you look at the respective costs of the operations.

A number of posters did the usual pointing to First retreats of the past (e.g. North Devon, Plymouth etc) as an indicator that they would roll over. First just weren't going to do that (as more recent history illustrates - see First vs Wessex in Bath and Bristol) so hence where we are now. It'll be interesting to see what happens with First's added tours.

 

[smtglasgow]

Although I think we can safely say that First wouldn’t be running tours in Edinburgh if Lothian hadn’t moved into West Lothian, I think that First’s tour business might have legs. In normal times (and without overseas visitors this year won’t be normal), there are more than enough tourists to go round – compare the number of visitors in 2019 to 10 or 20 years previously. First are providing a low-cost, no-frills versions of Lothians excellent, but expensive offerings. Market segmentation works fine in other areas, so why not tours. Only real downside is running it out of Livingston, although there is always the danger that non-core activity eats up management time. But perhaps if they can get to the stage where it’s running profitably, it could be sold off…

 

[overthewater]

To my mind, First's Edinburgh tour is a cleverly planned skimming operation which has a very low load factor needing to be achieved to break even. The lower value of the fleet helps the viability of the operation as well. It's a clever competitive response to Lothian who must be losing a fortune on their competitive West Lothian operations having incurred much more in start up costs.
It does show First's changed approach when it comes to competition, once upon a time they'd have just rolled over and let the competition get a foothold, they do respond to it now and they stand their ground. That's evidently not something Lothian banked on when launching. Even the loss of a few passengers will hurt them more on the tours operation given the modern fleet they provide for the work.

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post. It's a smart strategy to encourage Lothian to think again; I really don't think that they'd have introduced it had Lothian not entered West Lothian.

I agree 100%. They've limited set up costs with a largely depreciated fleet, trading on their cheap and cheerful nature. It's also pretty smart as going toe to toe on Lothian's regular bus services would be tough given the customer loyalty etc. There is virtually no customer loyalty with tourists so it deals with that. Now there may be some organic growth that a cheaper tour generates but that's limited. For the most part, they will be taking trade from Lothian.

So what First is doing is taking £16 per person out of Lothian's pocket; how many West Lothian passengers do LC need to get from First to recoup that? And that's before you look at the respective costs of the operations.

A number of posters did the usual pointing to First retreats of the past (e.g. North Devon, Plymouth etc) as an indicator that they would roll over. First just weren't going to do that (as more recent history illustrates - see First vs Wessex in Bath and Bristol) so hence where we are now. It'll be interesting to see what happens with First's added tours.

Although I think we can safely say that First wouldn’t be running tours in Edinburgh if Lothian hadn’t moved into West Lothian, I think that First’s tour business might have legs. In normal times (and without overseas visitors this year won’t be normal), there are more than enough tourists to go round – compare the number of visitors in 2019 to 10 or 20 years previously. First are providing a low-cost, no-frills versions of Lothians excellent, but expensive offerings. Market segmentation works fine in other areas, so why not tours. Only real downside is running it out of Livingston, although there is always the danger that non-core activity eats up management time. But perhaps if they can get to the stage where it’s running profitably, it could be sold off…

This is all on the money, if Bright bus make a profit it will help cover any losses in West Lothian.

 

[CN04NRJ]

This is all on the money, if Bright bus make a profit it will help cover any losses in West Lothian.

I doubt a handful of open toppers is enough to subsidise the entire West Lothian operation.

Also does anyone know what vehicles will be used now some of the original BBT fleet has moved on? E400s?

 

[M803UYA]

I doubt a handful of open toppers is enough to subsidise the entire West Lothian operation.

Also does anyone know what vehicles will be used now some of the original BBT fleet has moved on? E400s?

I think you're right, it isn't sufficient to subsidise the West Lothan operation - rather it's a useful piece of additional revenue, and the overhead costs of the depot are spread amongst more vehicles.

Lothian will have put together a business case for their West Lothian operations, and also for the 2016 open top purchases - the latter plan may well not have assumed competition arriving, but this is speculation on my part.

I'm likely to have missed a post somewhere, but has major parts of the original Bright Bus fleet moved on? I recall the discussions about the additional Enviro 400s from Ensign for the second route which have ended up going elsewhere. Are Bright Bus Tours operating with a than higher than needed margin of spare vehicles?

 

[overthewater]

I doubt a handful of open toppers is enough to subsidise the entire West Lothian operation.

Also does anyone know what vehicles will be used now some of the original BBT fleet has moved on? E400s?

I did say "IF"

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I doubt a handful of open toppers is enough to subsidise the entire West Lothian operation.

Also does anyone know what vehicles will be used now some of the original BBT fleet has moved on? E400s?

In fairness to @overthewater, he did say it would help cover their losses. I don't think he's suggesting that the profits made will cover all their losses

I think you're right, it isn't sufficient to subsidise the West Lothan operation - rather it's a useful piece of additional revenue, and the overhead costs of the depot are spread amongst more vehicles.

Lothian will have put together a business case for their West Lothian operations, and also for the 2016 open top purchases - the latter plan may well not have assumed competition arriving, but this is speculation on my part.

I'm likely to have missed a post somewhere, but has major parts of the original Bright Bus fleet moved on? I recall the discussions about the additional Enviro 400s from Ensign for the second route which have ended up going elsewhere. Are Bright Bus Tours operating with a than higher than needed margin of spare vehicles?

Exactly - it provides a bit of overhead recovery and contribution as well as helping to influence Lothian. I don't know how Edinburgh will fair with a reduction in foreign tourists against an increase in domestic visitors. It may be that Lothian's open top tours hit budget but it still doesn't get away from the fact that if you have 20 punters on a BBT bus, that's £300 that Lothian aren't getting and how many Maureen's and Walter's from Broxburn do you have to carry to fill that gap (and that's before you look at the costs of operation).

IIRC, the BBT fleet was rather old. So a couple of superannuated ones have headed down to Exeter (I think). However, they've been replaced by a pair of newer ex Stagecoach Tridents, plus half a dozen ex Metroline e400s from Ensign. So overall, it's a bit of an increase to support the expanded tours operation.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Also does anyone know what vehicles will be used now some of the original BBT fleet has moved on? E400s?

Indeed, there's a number E400s which First received at the start of 2020 which have joined the fleet.

First Scotland East 33891 LK08NVN (2nd November 2020)

Seen Photo date: 02/11/2020 ©Jordan Adam

www.flickr.com

 

[JurassicMan]

Edinburgh bus tours back on 30 April. Tickets from £8 and kids go free. Be interesting to see how Bright Bus respond on the price.

Pricing will be £10 Adult for one tour ,£16 adult for both tours and £29 for a family ticket with both 24 and 48 hour tickets available.

 

[MotCO]

Pricing will be £10 Adult for one tour ,£16 adult for both tours and £29 for a family ticket with both 24 and 48 hour tickets available.

Edinburgh bus tours back on 30 April. Tickets from £8 and kids go free. Be interesting to see how Bright Bus respond on the price.

So BBT will be more expensive than Edinburgh Bus Tours?

I don't know how Edinburgh will fair with a reduction in foreign tourists against an increase in domestic visitors. It may be that Lothian's open top tours hit budget but it still doesn't get away from the fact that if you have 20 punters on a BBT bus, that's £300 that Lothian aren't getting and how many Maureen's and Walter's from Broxburn do you have to carry to fill that gap (and that's before you look at the costs of operation).

One question is to what extent is Sturgeon putting off English tourists? I doubt that there will be many foreign tourists allowed to visit Scotland this year.

 

[Stan Drews]

One question is to what extent is Sturgeon putting off English tourists? I doubt that there will be many foreign tourists allowed to visit Scotland this year.

There are no travel restrictions between Scotland, England and Wales from tomorrow.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Pricing will be £10 Adult for one tour ,£16 adult for both tours and £29 for a family ticket with both 24 and 48 hour tickets available.

Child fares or not?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Good luck BBT

I actually think they're pre-recorded commentary is better and contains more interesting information

Be interesting to see what you get for your lowest price of £8 from Lothian

 

[Jordan Adam]

So BBT will be more expensive than Edinburgh Bus Tours?

This is unclear as the fares have not been formally announced yet... I suspect the prices people are seeing will be for the 48hr tickets not the 24hr tickets.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Good luck BBT

I actually think they're pre-recorded commentary is better and contains more interesting information

Be interesting to see what you get for your lowest price of £8 from Lothian

The same offering as before. Not sure how you could say pre recorded commentary is better than a live guide but each to your own?

 

[GusB]

The same offering as before. Not sure how you could say pre recorded commentary is better than a live guide but each to your own?

The one and only time I have been on a tour in Edinburgh it was on the Edinburgh Classic Tour, probably in the late 90s. It was the style and humour of the driver that made the experience for me. I don't think a pre-recorded script would have been as good.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The same offering as before. Not sure how you could say pre recorded commentary is better than a live guide but each to your own?

It is perhaps better if your first language isn't English

The one and only time I have been on a tour in Edinburgh it was on the Edinburgh Classic Tour, probably in the late 90s. It was the style and humour of the driver that made the experience for me. I don't think a pre-recorded script would have been as good.

I have to say that I do prefer the personal musings of the guides/drivers. Can't say about Edinburgh but the Dublin Bus drivers on their tours are hilarious.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Also, if pre-recorded and the bus needs to divert and not pass a certain landmark, some tourists may get confused why the audio is talking about x landmark which they can't see, which would not be good. A live guide, however, would mean more details could be given, and more importantly, questions can be asked and answered.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Also, if pre-recorded and the bus needs to divert and not pass a certain landmark, some tourists may get confused why the audio is talking about x landmark which they can't see, which would not be good. A live guide, however, would mean more details could be given, and more importantly, questions can be asked and answered.

However a live guide is double the wages to cover, when you add that over 15+ buses it makes a huge difference.