Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[philosopher]

Or they'll book a ticket for the 6 hour meeting and change it earlier if they finish early. Typically mid-afternoon is a quiet time for the railway so a seat will be available.

For compulsory reservations to work I think the following would need to be done

1) It would have to be very easy to reserve a seat. With apps and online reservations I imagine this is quite easy to achieve.
2) A portion of seats would have to be held back to ensure those on flexible tickets can almost always reserve a seat on the next available train. This would reduce the number of reservations available to those on non flexible tickets but could be justified as those with flexible tickets would be paying more.

 

[DH1Commuter]

I doubt that is publically available as it'd be commercial-in-confidence, but realistically it's not a commuter operation.

I'd disagree - there are significant flows where LNER is either the only operator, or at least the operator with both capacity and well-timed trains that usually turn up (TPE cancellations are not infrequent)- I know there are significant numbers of ST holders to KGX from points south of Doncaster, quite a few from York/Leeds also, and decent flows between the Yorkshire cities, Newcastle-Durham-Darlington-York and Newcastle-Edinburgh (including towns that get a limited service from other operators, heading to both cities).

Writing off reliable revenue in favour of leisure travellers who are price-sensitive and travel relatively infrequently, seems short-sighted in the extreme. And yes, having to book reservations each way, both days, is a minor annoyance that, repeated enough, becomes a major annoyance that will push people into their cars.

TBH, I have suspicions that many people have simply given up reserving seats now, based upon observed behaviours and the complete lack of checks by staff on reservations.

 

[Starmill]

Searching for departure immediately, the next available direct service from London to York with availability is the 2100.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Searching for departure immediately, the next available direct service from London to York with availability is the 2100.

To be fair they are operating at 50% capacity (I think?) and it's a Bank Holiday and the south WCML will be closed all weekend.

 

[Starmill]

To be fair they are operating at 50% capacity (I think?) and it's a Bank Holiday.

But there will be large numbers of unsold seats onboard from no-shows, people who've reserved several departures because they don't know what train they want, and from the inefficiency of the reservation layout meaning there's further "distanced" capacity. There's also the question of whether, if someone needs to travel urgently, there's really a reason for them not to travel in the vestibule in preference to their waiting in King's Cross station for the next seven hours.

Of course, the trains could have been made reservations recommended in which case they would just be boarded up until reasonable social distance capacity. Is the current situation an improvement?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, the trains could have been made reservations recommended in which case they would just be boarded up until reasonable social distance capacity. Is the current situation an improvement?

In the sense that people know, in advance, that they cannot get on, yes. Easier then to replan.

Walk-up only works if you effectively have indefinite capacity (i.e. can crush-load).

This is why regardless of the future situation I absolutely do support CR for the time social distancing is in place, and would roll it out much more widely.

 

[Domh245]

In the sense that people know, in advance, that they cannot get on, yes. Easier then to replan.

So, not an improvement for the railway then.

 

[Ianno87]

2) A portion of seats would have to be held back to ensure those on flexible tickets can almost always reserve a seat on the next available train. This would reduce the number of reservations available to those on non flexible tickets but could be justified as those with flexible tickets would be paying more.

That's what I would advocate; holding back a proporition of seats that are unreservable until 6/12/24/48/72 hours before (or whatever).

So, not an improvement for the railway then.

Improvement for the customer, though. Knowing that when they do get on, they won't be stood outside the toilet.

 

[Starmill]

This also gives away a key reason why I don't think this can last, if someone looks right now to book urgently from London to York they'll realise the next train is the 2100 and choose to hire a car or get someone to drive them if their journey is urgent. That's someone who, if their journey really is urgent, would have been perfectly willing to buy the expensive full price single. Eventually the Department will realise there's no way we can afford to turn such business away.

 

[Ianno87]

This also gives away a key reason why I don't think this can last, if someone looks right now to book urgently from London to York they'll realise the next train is the 2100 and choose to hire a car or get someone to drive them if their journey is urgent. That's someone who, if their journey really is urgent, would have been perfectly willing to buy the expensive full price single. Eventually the Department will realise there's no way we can afford to turn such business away.

Depends how many such people there actually are. Is it 1 person per day or is it 100 people per day?

 

[Starmill]

In the sense that people know, in advance, that they cannot get on, yes. Easier then to replan.

But they would physically be able to get on. Indeed they may actually be being allowed on in practice too as the staff might be looking out for the seats that the no shows would have occupied and would as such allow people on. Even in France, TGV chef du bord would allow people onto full trains to sit in the vestibule on payment of the full single fare and onboard supplement.

However the current information turns the customer away. So they'll make their own arrangements that don't involve paying for a train ticket while the train runs with very low occupancy.

Improvement for the customer, though. Knowing that when they do get on, they won't be stood outside the toilet.

Which is of course also achieved with a normal seat reservation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Improvement for the customer, though. Knowing that when they do get on, they won't be stood outside the toilet.

And that, at present, they will get on. Remember at present capacity is limited.

 

[Starmill]

Depends how many such people there actually are. Is it 1 person per day or is it 100 people per day?

It's hardly rare for people to be travelling long-distance at same-day notice. Indeed it's only 1h50 journey time.

 

[Watershed]

In the sense that people know, in advance, that they cannot get on, yes. Easier then to replan.

Except they almost certainly can get on, even with the artificial limitation of simultaneously employing "vigorous" social distancing and banning the use of standing/vestibules. Because there will be loads of people who don't turn up to claim their reservation.

It's not a matter of replanning - it's a matter of telling customers to get lost. That's what "there are no trains for the next 7 hours" basically means.

Depends how many such people there actually are. Is it 1 person per day or is it 100 people per day?

You need 5 or 10 cheap Advance ticket holders to make up for 1 full fare passenger lost to road/air. I'm sure the real figure is a lot nearer 100 than 1 person.

 

[dosxuk]

Improvement for the customer, though. Knowing that when they do get on, they won't be stood outside the toilet.

Last time I had to make an urgent rail journey I wouldn't have cared if I was stood next to the toilet, packed in an aisle or laying in the overhead baggage shelf. Getting where I needed to be was more important than any concerns over comfort or cost.

If I'd been blocked by a reservation system, then a taxi company would have made a lot of money off me that day. I wouldn't just put my hands up and go "ok, I'll hang around here for six hours until the next train with space".

 

[Starmill]

Getting where I needed to be was more important than any concerns over comfort or cost.

Exactly. This is precisely what the railway has been doing quite well for many years - it has been able to cater to people who need to quickly get a couple of hundred miles same-day, and who will buy a £120 ticket to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Last time I had to make an urgent rail journey I wouldn't have cared if I was stood next to the toilet, packed in an aisle or laying in the overhead baggage shelf. Getting where I needed to be was more important than any concerns over comfort or cost.

The only situation where I could imagine a long distance rail journey being essential and unplanned is if I didn't drive and a member of the family was severely ill.

Those scenarios are rare, and interestingly US airlines offer "bereavement fares" for that sort of purpose.

 

[Starmill]

I wouldn't just put my hands up and go "ok, I'll hang around here for six hours until the next train with space".

Indeed. The idea that people will buy the ticket for the 2100 and just wait is laughable.

 

[NSEFAN]

The idea that passengers will just look for quieter trains at a different time of day to try and find a seat has a vibe of, "We will run trains at times which suit us, and passengers will adjust their schedules to match!" In practice there's a good risk of driving away a proportion of customers who would accept standing if it meant they could run their life to their own schedule, not the railway's. Having a guaranteed seat is of course a nice thing, but someone who really cares about such things already has many ways to make sure this happens. On the other hand, turn-up-and-go flexibility is a strong selling point of trains these days. With electric self-driving cars not that far away, the railway will have to get every customer it can. Turning away business seems like madness to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. The idea that people will buy the ticket for the 2100 and just wait is laughable.

Those who are going away for the Bank Holiday will do exactly that.

This is an extreme situation:

• It's a Bank Holiday.
• It's the first Bank Holiday in about 9 months when a weekend away has been allowed.
• Trains are operating at 50% capacity.
• A full timetable is not quite operating (I think).
• The WCML is closed all weekend.

I'd bet that other than on December 24th, when boarding controls often are in place, this exact situation may never arise again.

 

[Ianno87]

Which is of course also achieved with a normal seat reservation.

Not if they're turning up and going they wont.

 

[Starmill]

There's genuinely no reason not to just say that reservations are recommended on some services, with appropriate publicity, and to say that those without will need to queue until 10 minutes to departure for the busiest services, allowing reservation holders only onboard first.

 

[dosxuk]

Those who are going away for the Bank Holiday will do exactly that.

Some will do that. I suspect most will make alternative arrangements that don't involve giving the railway any money and then complain about how the trains are full and there's not enough carriages.

 

[Starmill]

Not if they're turning up and going they wont.

In which case a seat isn't guaranteed and never has been so I don't see any problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's genuinely no reason not to just say that reservations are recommended on some services, with appropriate publicity, and to say that those without will need to queue until 10 minutes to departure for the busiest services, allowing reservation holders only onboard first.

Those with reservations are entitled to board right up to departure. Your system would effectively put a system of check-in in place. That certainly isn't acceptable to me.

OK, here's a question - people come up with all these objections, but it's not like we are inventing a new system. Worldwide, far more InterCity railways operate with CR than don't. Why are those things issues here but not there?

 

[Starmill]

Those who are going away for the Bank Holiday will do exactly that.

This is an extreme situation:

• It's a Bank Holiday.
• It's the first Bank Holiday in about 9 months when a weekend away has been allowed.
• Trains are operating at 50% capacity.
• A full timetable is not quite operating (I think).
• The WCML is closed all weekend.

I'd bet that other than on December 24th, when boarding controls often are in place, this exact situation may never arise again.

In reality today is a day when more reservations are wanted than there's space for on the train. In reality that will happen all the time because of wastage and standing.

 

[Ianno87]

There's genuinely no reason not to just say that reservations are recommended on some services, with appropriate publicity, and to say that those without will need to queue until 10 minutes to departure for the busiest services, allowing reservation holders only onboard first.

Except that, by requiring reservations, people will be directed to spare capacity on alternative services first, rather than everybody turning up simultaneously for the 1600.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In reality today is a day when more reservations are wanted than there's space for on the train. In reality that will happen all the time because of wastage and standing.

Does every IC train journey you take have standees?

I can't remember the last time I didn't get a seat when travelling with Avanti West Coast.

 

[Starmill]

Those with reservations are entitled to board right up to departure. Your system would effectively put a system of check-in in place. That certainly isn't acceptable to me.

It's effectively what has happened anyway during the Edinburgh Festival and other big events. Nobody would be denied boarding 2 minutes before.

Except that, by requiring reservations, people will be directed to spare capacity on alternative services first, rather than everybody turning up simultaneously for the 1600.

They'll be directed not to travel by rail. People won't wait 7 hours. I know you think they will but it's not going to happen.

 

[Taunton]

The only situation where I could imagine a long distance rail journey being essential and unplanned is if I didn't drive and a member of the family was severely ill.

Not at all. in a few weeks' time I'm making a first rail business trip since lockdown, London to Bradford and back. I'll be finished ... when we're finished. I think the family see it as being fairly essential to get back home from that, but goodness knows which train will suit. We'll be finished when we're finished.

Whatever is the point in having built up Inter-City services to near Metro, turn-up-and-go frequencies over recent years (eg every 20 minutes London to Birmingham or Manchester) if you can't turn up and go? From colleagues in the office doing these trips, everyone was just turning up and getting the next one. Just like, if I drive, I leave when ready.