Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[DanNCL]

Those who are going away for the Bank Holiday will do exactly that.

This is an extreme situation:

• It's a Bank Holiday.
• It's the first Bank Holiday in about 9 months when a weekend away has been allowed.
• Trains are operating at 50% capacity.
• A full timetable is not quite operating (I think).
• The WCML is closed all weekend.

I'd bet that other than on December 24th, when boarding controls often are in place, this exact situation may never arise again.

It’s not an extreme situation, unless you consider an extreme situation to be something that happens pretty much every day, which this does with the inability to get seat reservations within any reasonable timeframe for many LNER services.

Those with reservations are entitled to board right up to departure. Your system would effectively put a system of check-in in place. That certainly isn't acceptable to me.

OK, here's a question - people come up with all these objections, but it's not like we are inventing a new system. Worldwide, far more InterCity railways operate with CR than don't. Why are those things issues here but not there?

It doesn’t work well in other countries, that’s why so many people choose to drive instead.

Does every IC train journey you take have standees?

I can't remember the last time I didn't get a seat when travelling with Avanti West Coast.

Don’t know which services you’re using then cause more often than I’ve actually found the opposite to be the case on Avanti.

 

[Starmill]

Does every IC train journey you take have standees?

I can't remember the last time I didn't get a seat when travelling with Avanti West Coast.

Yes very regularly in 2019. I'm not sure how well travelled you've been but perhaps you've never commuted to Manchester or travelled on the 1433 London to Leeds?

OK, here's a question - people come up with all these objections, but it's not like we are inventing a new system. Worldwide, far more InterCity railways operate with CR than don't. Why are those things issues here but not there?

Because, in other places where compulsory reservation is in place, there's usually dedicated service and often there's even dedicated infrastructure for long-distance traffic. I've already explained this! We don't have that in this country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not at all. in a few weeks' time I'm making a first rail business trip since lockdown, London to Bradford and back. I'll be finished ... when we're finished. I think the family see it as being fairly essential to get back home from that, but goodness knows which train will suit. We'll be finished when we're finished.

As I've repeatedly pointed out, the use-case for this is different.

With CR it's like frequent flights. I've certainly done this for Luton to Amsterdam. You book the last train you are likely to want, and so are assured of a seat on it (an actual seat, not stood in someone's armpit). If you finish early, you pull out your phone and move to an earlier train, then head to the station and board it. This is unlikely to be a problem because mid-afternoon trains before the peak tend to be quite quiet. But if it is you go for a couple of pints with your colleagues or perhaps a meal and head back on the planned train, or perhaps hole yourself up somewhere to work on your laptop.

If the day is going really badly and you're going to need to book a hotel to stay over, you go online and change your train and book a hotel. No problem there either.

Whatever is the point in having built up Inter-City services to near Metro, turn-up-and-go frequencies over recent years (eg every 20 minutes London to Birmingham or Manchester) if you can't turn up and go? From colleagues in the office doing these trips, everyone was just turning up and getting the next one. Just like, if I drive, I leave when ready.

Most companies will not pay Anytime fares from London to Manchester any more - they are outrageous and Advances are available on pretty much all trains. If you're using Advances, the situation is the same as if it was full CR, except for that you might have to put up with the overcrowding reducing your journey quality.

The days of "just buy an open return" are long gone for most business travellers.

It’s not an extreme situation, unless you consider an extreme situation to be something that happens pretty much every day, which this does with the inability to get seat reservations within any reasonable timeframe for many LNER services.

Every day while a nasty disease is requiring a substantial reduction in capacity. This is not normal. The thread is about "going forward", if it was just about during COVID it'd be in the COVID subforum.

It doesn’t work well in other countries, that’s why so many people choose to drive instead.

Evidence? I have little time for SNCF as an organisation but I don't see that people are hating on the TGV, it seems to do quite well for itself, indeed it's the only bit of SNCF that is even vaguely good. And FS and Italo seem to do well for themselves as well.

RENFE perhaps throws away custom by operating well under capacity, but that's just RENFE, which is not a spectacularly well run organisation.

Eurostar usually has plenty of space.

Don’t know which services you’re using then cause more often than I’ve actually found the opposite to be the case on Avanti.

Mostly weekends away, but mid-week it's even quieter, and Saturday afternoons loadings are very low indeed. Avanti only gets really, really busy Friday evenings and Sunday afternoons.

 

[Starmill]

Evidence? I have little time for SNCF as an organisation but I don't see that people are hating on the TGV, it seems to do quite well for itself, indeed it's the only bit of SNCF that is even vaguely good.

The TGV service has been built up from scratch over several decades to operate in addition to an existing metro, regional and national railway timetable.

During those years we scrimped out on railway investment and as such we have a metro, regional and national network all-in-one. Avanti and LNER perform all three functions for example. You cannot therefore just apply the principles that suit one group of passengers to a mixed traffic railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TGV service has been built up from scratch over several decades to operate in addition to an existing metro, regional and national railway timetable.

Not quite true; the classic ICs have been considerably cut back as TGVs have taken over their role.

During those years we scrimped out on railway investment and as such we have a metro, regional and national network all-in-one. Avanti and LNER perform all three functions for example. You cannot therefore just apply the principles that suit one group of passengers to a mixed traffic railway.

Avanti and LNER only provide genuine local services in a limited number of places, and due to the location of those places trains have typically emptied out a bit by the time they are reached.

Other than that there's London commuter usage, but we'd be better providing for that with commuter services rather than clogging up IC trains with it. Indeed, if you look at the south WCML, only a very small number of Avanti services fulfil a commuter role, and they are ones that are typically very lightly loaded as they originate from the North West at very early times of day, and so it'd be easy to grab a quick reservation on the day if you intended to use one.

 

[Starmill]

Avanti and LNER only provide genuine local services in a limited number of places, and due to the location of those places trains have typically emptied out a bit by the time they are reached.

This isn't true. I've explained this to you again and again and you're refusing to listen - it seems that's because you seem to think that everywhere is like the South WCML when in fact the reality is far different. Unless you're willing to accept that not everywhere is like Milton Keynes to London then this is fruitless.

 

[cactustwirly]

Depends how many such people there actually are. Is it 1 person per day or is it 100 people per day?

1 person per day buying an Anytime Single, is worth 10 people on advances

 

[Starmill]

Indeed, if you look at the south WCML, only a very small number of Avanti services fulfil a commuter role, and they are ones that are typically very lightly loaded as they originate from the North West at very early times of day, and so it'd be easy to grab a quick reservation on the day if you intended to use one.

Indeed. So absolutely nothing like commuting into Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds or Newcastle then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This isn't true. I've explained this to you again and again and you're refusing to listen - it seems that's because you seem to think that everywhere is like the South WCML when in fact the reality is far different. Unless you're willing to accept that not everywhere is like Milton Keynes to London then this is fruitless.

The only bit that is equivalent is London to Stevenage/Peterborough. We would be better providing for that by way of dedicated fast commuter services.

The bits in the North fit the other situation - people will always get off nearer London, which frees up capacity.

 

[Starmill]

The bits in the North fit the other situation - people will always get off nearer London, which frees up capacity.

This is just not true, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[dosxuk]

Most companies will not pay Anytime fares from London to Manchester any more - they are outrageous and Advances are available on pretty much all trains. If you're using Advances, the situation is the same as if it was full CR, except for that you might have to put up with the overcrowding reducing your journey quality.

The days of "just buy an open return" are long gone for most business travellers.

My work will if I need to get somewhere at short notice.

What you're suggesting is that the railway should ignore the needs of those who are willing to pay extra for a flexible ticket and entirely concentrate on those who only buy discounted ones. Ignore the people who will stump up a load of cash to just get somewhere and only worry about the people who travel once in a blue moon on the cheapest tickets they can find.

I'm all for compulsory reservations for first class / premium economy type tickets. If people feel the need to travel without their ambience being ruined by other passengers daring to stand because they have to travel at the same time, they should be paying extra for it.

I'd also suggest that no advance tickets should be available for any train that is busy enough that it regularly has standing passengers. Want to travel at a busy time, expect to pay for it.

 

[DanNCL]

Most companies will not pay Anytime fares from London to Manchester any more - they are outrageous and Advances are available on pretty much all trains. If you're using Advances, the situation is the same as if it was full CR, except for that you might have to put up with the overcrowding reducing your journey quality.

The days of "just buy an open return" are long gone for most business travellers.

You’d be surprised how many still will. If they need their employee to make that journey at the last minute, a lot of them will pay whatever price they have to. My employer is one of them.

Every day while a nasty disease is requiring a substantial reduction in capacity. This is not normal. The thread is about "going forward", if it was just about during COVID it'd be in the COVID subforum.

Have you seen the COVID figures lately? If you have you’ll see there’s absolutely zero justification for any of this, unless the same “protective measures” should also be taken against the common cold and the flu. That’s a matter for another thread though.

Evidence? I have little time for SNCF as an organisation but I don't see that people are hating on the TGV, it seems to do quite well for itself, indeed it's the only bit of SNCF that is even vaguely good. And FS and Italo seem to do well for themselves as well.

RENFE perhaps throws away custom by operating well under capacity, but that's just RENFE, which is not a spectacularly well run organisation.

Eurostar usually has plenty of space.

You can’t compare the TGV network built entirely in addition to the previous network and therefore with reasonable turn up and go alternatives available to the UK’s network where these long distance trains also act as commuter trains.

Trenitalia and Italo competing against each other will be a huge factor in their success as it drives the prices significantly down. Again, as with the TGV, there’s a reasonable turn up and go alternative to all of those.

Eurostar usually has plenty of space because passengers have been driven away by the difficulty of reserving with them. It’s easier to get a fight on the day usually and people make their choice accordingly.

Any other “examples” of this system actually being successful? Or just more cases of underperforming or incomparable services?

Not quite true; the classic ICs have been considerably cut back as TGVs have taken over their role.

As they were compulsory reservation anyway that makes zero difference.

Avanti and LNER only provide genuine local services in a limited number of places, and due to the location of those places trains have typically emptied out a bit by the time they are reached.

Other than that there's London commuter usage, but we'd be better providing for that with commuter services rather than clogging up IC trains with it. Indeed, if you look at the south WCML, only a very small number of Avanti services fulfil a commuter role, and they are ones that are typically very lightly loaded as they originate from the North West at very early times of day, and so it'd be easy to grab a quick reservation on the day if you intended to use one.

That couldn’t be further from the truth with both operators. North of Peterborough, with the exception of Thirsk, Chester-le-Street, Manors, Cramlington and stations served by the North Berwick Shuttle LNER provide the local service on the ECML, in many cases the only local service. If you want to go from Retford to Doncaster or Newark, both journeys of less than 20 minutes, your only rail option is LNER. If you want to travel from Newcastle to Alnmouth or Berwick, again your main rail option is LNER. I could list more examples but don’t see the point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is just not true, you have no idea what you're talking about.

As a very frequent user of the WCML I fundamentally disagree. And if there are issues, time we sorted them out a proper local service, e.g. Crewe-Preston, which FNW tried to do years ago.

 

[kez19]

The idea that passengers will just look for quieter trains at a different time of day to try and find a seat has a vibe of, "We will run trains at times which suit us, and passengers will adjust their schedules to match!" In practice there's a good risk of driving away a proportion of customers who would accept standing if it meant they could run their life to their own schedule, not the railway's. Having a guaranteed seat is of course a nice thing, but someone who really cares about such things already has many ways to make sure this happens. On the other hand, turn-up-and-go flexibility is a strong selling point of trains these days. With electric self-driving cars not that far away, the railway will have to get every customer it can. Turning away business seems like madness to me.

The thing for me in terms of LNER let alone XC is the Aberdeen to London vary to Edinburgh, I only have a choice of 4 during the day and if I wanted London it’s 3 unless you travel to Edinburgh to get a train running nearly half hour. I wouldn’t mind that we had a bit of increase in services from Aberdeen but I doubt it’ll happen

 

[Starmill]

As a very frequent user of the WCML I fundamentally disagree. And if there are issues, time we sorted them out a proper local service, e.g. Crewe-Preston, which FNW tried to do years ago.

You clearly did not use weekday morning peak time Avanti trains arriving in Birmingham or Manchester or Saturday afternoon trains leaving them in 2019. If you did you'd have seen them full and standing, literally every day, with passengers making short journeys because there's no alternative. There is an alternative between Milton Keynes and London, it is completely different. Same goes for Doncaster and Wakefield to Leeds, and Darlington and Durham to Newcastle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you seen the COVID figures lately? If you have you’ll see there’s absolutely zero justification for any of this, unless the same “protective measures” should also be taken against the common cold and the flu. That’s a matter for another thread though.

Indeed it is; the situation we are discussing here is CR as an ongoing thing, not COVID specific measures which would be in the COVID subforum. However, it is worth mentioning that like them or not those measures are the cause for LNER operating below 50% capacity at present.

Trenitalia and Italo competing against each other will be a huge factor in their success as it drives the prices significantly down. Again, as with the TGV, there’s a reasonable turn up and go alternative to all of those.

There isn't. Italy's entire InterCity network is CR, and while you can use the regional trains it would be painful to do a long distance journey on them.

Eurostar usually has plenty of space because passengers have been driven away by the difficulty of reserving with them. It’s easier to get a fight on the day usually and people make their choice accordingly.

Eh? Reserving with Eurostar is easy, just the same as a flight. You go on their website and buy a ticket.

As they were compulsory reservation anyway that makes zero difference.

SNCF Corail (classic IC) services are and were not CR. Only the briefly-existing "Corail Teoz" was.

That couldn’t be further from the truth with both operators. North of Peterborough, with the exception of Thirsk, Chester-le-Street, Manors, Cramlington and stations served by the North Berwick Shuttle LNER provide the local service on the ECML, in many cases the only local service. If you want to go from Retford to Doncaster or Newark, both journeys of less than 20 minutes, your only rail option is LNER. If you want to travel from Newcastle to Alnmouth or Berwick, again your main rail option is LNER. I could list more examples but don’t see the point.

Yes, but those trains generally won't be full until they get nearer London. But if they are, then maybe it's time to consider a proper hourly local EMU service on the north ECML.

You clearly did not use weekday morning peak time Avanti trains arriving in Birmingham or Manchester or Saturday afternoon trains leaving them in 2019. If you did you'd have seen them full and standing, literally every day, with passengers making short journeys because there's no alternative. There is an alternative between Milton Keynes and London, it is completely different. Same goes for Doncaster and Wakefield to Leeds, and Darlington and Durham to Newcastle.

Precisely which short distance routes into/out of Birmingham and Manchester do not have local services?

 

[Starmill]

Precisely which short distance routes into/out of Birmingham and Manchester do not have local services?

With the capacity to accommodate more passengers at 2019 levels of demand?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the capacity to accommodate more passengers at 2019 levels of demand, zero.

Avanti could still carry some passengers, of course, with reservations. Space is made for them by passengers travelling from London to Stoke/Stockport.

I can see a capacity issue on Stoke-Manchester local services (so solve that!) but not around Birmingham; there are at least 3 LNR trains per hour between Coventry and Brum, most are now 8-car with plenty of capacity.

 

[cactustwirly]

You clearly did not use weekday morning peak time Avanti trains arriving in Birmingham or Manchester or Saturday afternoon trains leaving them in 2019. If you did you'd have seen them full and standing, literally every day, with passengers making short journeys because there's no alternative. There is an alternative between Milton Keynes and London, it is completely different. Same goes for Doncaster and Wakefield to Leeds, and Darlington and Durham to Newcastle.

Doncaster to Leeds hardly has an alternative, the Northern service is infrequent and slow compared to LNER.

 

[Starmill]

I can see a capacity issue on Stoke-Manchester local services (so solve that!)

We're going around in circles. That's not going to be solved because it would need extra platforms four tracking, new rolling stock and several hundred million pounds. We'd also need four track between Wakefield and Leeds and from Darlington to Morpeth.

Given the government won't pay that (all told it will be many £billions), we could just, not introduce compulsory reservation?

 

[cactustwirly]

Indeed it is; the situation we are discussing here is CR as an ongoing thing, not COVID specific measures which would be in the COVID subforum. However, it is worth mentioning that like them or not those measures are the cause for LNER operating below 50% capacity at present.



There isn't. Italy's entire InterCity network is CR, and while you can use the regional trains it would be painful to do a long distance journey on them.



Eh? Reserving with Eurostar is easy, just the same as a flight. You go on their website and buy a ticket.



SNCF Corail (classic IC) services are and were not CR. Only the briefly-existing "Corail Teoz" was.



Yes, but those trains generally won't be full until they get nearer London. But if they are, then maybe it's time to consider a proper hourly local EMU service on the north ECML.



Precisely which short distance routes into/out of Birmingham and Manchester do not have local services?

Coventry and Wolverhampton to Birmingham New Street??

Same with Tamworth and Cheltenham

 

[Starmill]

Doncaster to Leeds hardly has an alternative, the Northern service is infrequent and slow compared to LNER.

And it is also full with people who need the intermediate stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Coventry and Wolverhampton to Birmingham New Street??

Plenty of LNR services.

So much so in the latter case that completely removing one of the Avanti services to create the Euston-Brum-Scotland service didn't cause issues.

Same with Tamworth and Cheltenham

Those are both XC which is a slightly different issue.

 

[Starmill]

Plenty of LNR services.

Which have to serve the intermediate stops, and are therefore already full.

So much so in the latter case that completely removing one of the Avanti services to create the Euston-Brum-Scotland service didn't cause issues.

During a pandemic.

 

[cactustwirly]

Plenty of LNR services.

So much so in the latter case that completely removing one of the Avanti services to create the Euston-Brum-Scotland service didn't cause issues.



Those are both XC which is a slightly different issue.

There's also Swindon/Chippenham/Bath to Bristol to consider which are only/mostly served by the London intercity services

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which have to serve the intermediate stops, and are therefore already full.

They aren't.

During a pandemic.

No, about 5+ years ago now.

There's also Swindon/Chippenham/Bath to Bristol to consider which are only/mostly served by the London intercity services

GWR's Bristol services are an oddity here and aren't really InterCity, they are more like TPE in concept, i.e. high speed regional services with fancy rolling stock.

You could imagine CR on Paddington-Parkway-Temple Meads fasts (if they return), but not the normal "semifasts".

 

[Starmill]

They aren't.

Oh really, so you're saying that there's capacity in all of the examples highlighted on an alternative service to remove the short distance passengers from the log distance trains, bearing in mind that LNER and Avanti had a significant number of daily trains that were full of standing passengers? What about the 1745 from Leeds for example, which would usually leave with people standing in every vestibule?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh really, so you're saying that there's capacity in all of the examples highlighted on an alternative service to remove the short distance passengers from the log distance trains, bearing in mind that LNER and Avanti had a significant number of daily trains that were full of standing passengers? What about the 1745 from Leeds for example, which would usually leave with people standing in every vestibule?

No, I was replying directly to your point about Coventry and Wolverhampton to Birmingham. Particularly as we aren't talking about banning short distance passengers, simply that when the seats are all reserved the train is full.

 

[Starmill]

No, about 5+ years ago now.

That change didn't cut the overall quantum of peak time services, although it did change their formations slightly. By 2019 the quantum was restored all day.

No, I was replying directly to your point about Coventry and Wolverhampton to Birmingham. Particularly as we aren't talking about banning short distance passengers, simply that when the seats are all reserved the train is full.

Coventry and Wolverhampton plainly do not have sufficient alternative capacity either. I can only assume that you've just never travelled at peak times into any of the cities mentioned. You just think that they're like Milton Keynes to London because that's the world view you've developed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That change didn't cut the overall quantum of peak time services, although it did change their formations slightly. By 2019 the quantum was restored all day.

By adding a local service, perchance? The all day Avanti service from Brum to Wolves remains at 1tph, reduced from the original overlapping two.