IET's grounded - what would you run?

[SteelWeelApeal]

As I'm sure most of you are aware, all IET's have been taken out of service and are being checked before going back into service. On the main thread I have seen a few suggestions of how to handle the service. Obviously, there is not much time to plan an alternative in one morning, and besides, many of the trains seem to be getting back into service very quickly.

However, hypothetically, if there was a vastly reduced number of available IETs for a couple of weeks, what would you run to keep the core routes covered?
For GWR, I would find as many turbos as I could to run a core Cotswolds service, Swindon to Cheltenham shuttle, and a Newbury to Bedwyn shuttle, reducing the frequency of some other services to source them (e.g. Reading to Basingstoke, Didcot to Oxford). Then find as many short castle HSTs as possible, and focus them on a fast service from Bristol Parkway and Temple Meads into Cornwall, again reducing some more local services to source them (e.g. some of the trains in Cornwall, curtailing the Taunton to Cardiff's at Bristol, reducing Exmouth to Paignton services and running those trains wherever possible to cascade others). Then focus the remaining IET's on London to South Wales, an occasional semifast to Taunton via Westbury, and if possible running some into Temple Meads via Bath. If not, then either run some Temple Meads - Swindon turbo shuttles, or extend some of the fast short HST's from Cornwall to Swindon if the modified ones are route cleared. Run extra 387s as far west as they can go, depending on crew knowledge and electrification.

Do you have any other suggestions for GWR? How about for LNER, Hull trains and TPE?

 

[yorksrob]

The thumper can go anywhere - if they put it on the ECML I'd cough up for a walk on ticket

Go on - you know it makes sense !

 

[Horizon22]

I suppose it’s what can you run in some places.
Regularly GWR run turbos:
- Reading-Bedwyn
- Swindon-Cheltenham

You could run a 387 to Didcot and I think theoretically to Swindon. Getting to Bristol is the key point because at the very least people can change for all the other GWR destinations via other operators / turbo service.

 

[C37]

There quite a number of HST sets running on the MML until very recently, could they be re introduced?

 

[adc82140]

I would bustitute the Thames Valley branches to release Turbos for the Cotswold line and services along the B&H beyond Bedwyn. 12 car 387 shuttles to Didcot from Paddington. What IETs can run would be terminated at Didcot to maximise service provision to the west. Maximise train length on the Cardiff/Portsmouth service at the expense of service frequency in the Bristol metro area to encourage connection into Waterloo trains at Salisbury.

 

[RobShipway]

For me it would be as follows:

GWR - I would put into service the class 769 units on the Thames Valley services between Reading to Gatwick/Redhill. The class 165 units being used on Thames Valley services, would be used on shuttle services between London Paddington to Reading.

Any class Class 165/166 units currently doing Salisbury to Portsmouth harbour routes I would use on Cotswolds services as suggested above as well as the Didcot to Oxford Services. I would also have the Castle HST units working from Reading to Bristol Temple Meads.

For LNER, any class 91/DVT/MK4 trains available would be used on services from Kings Cross to York. I would then be running the spare EMR HST units doing shuttle services between York - Edingburgh and/or York - Glasgow services.

TPE - hopefully, can cover services using Class 397 units on routes that are all electrified with other routes being run by class 185 units.

Hull Trains is more difficult, but I would have them using any spare class 43 and Mk3 coaches other than the ones recently by EMR. I know that they will not be disability approved, but other than finding a use for class 365 units where they can free up not electric powered units somewhere, I cannot see any other option.

 

[Horizon22]

For me it would be as follows:

GWR - I would put into service the class 769 units on the Thames Valley services between Reading to Gatwick/Redhill. The class 165 units being used on Thames Valley services, would be used on shuttle services between London Paddington to Reading.

Any class Class 165/166 units currently doing Salisbury to Portsmouth harbour routes I would use on Cotswolds services as suggested above as well as the Didcot to Oxford Services. I would also have the Castle HST units working from Reading to Bristol Temple Meads.

For LNER, any class 91/DVT/MK4 trains available would be used on services from Kings Cross to York. I would then be running the spare EMR HST units doing shuttle services between York - Edingburgh and/or York - Glasgow services.

TPE - hopefully, can cover services using Class 397 units on routes that are all electrified with other routes being run by class 185 units.

Hull Trains is more difficult, but I would have them using any spare class 43 and Mk3 coaches other than the ones recently by EMR. I know that they will not be disability approved, but other than finding a use for class 365 units where they can free up not electric powered units somewhere, I cannot see any other option.

The 769s are not cleared for passenger service yet.

And why do you need shuttle services to Reading? 387s and TfL can still run.

 

[RobShipway]

The 769s are not cleared for passenger service yet.

And why do you need shuttle services to Reading? 387s and TfL can still run.

You need shuttle services to Reading as HST trains can no longer enter Paddington Station. So if you are going to be starting the Castle HST sets from Reading to go to Bristol, then you might as well be running the class 387's from Reading as well. That means getting the passengers that would have started their Journey from London Paddington to Reading.

The class 769's are technically Class 319's with a diesel engine added, but I do take your point.

 

[Horizon22]

You need shuttle services to Reading as HST trains can no longer enter Paddington Station. So if you are going to be starting the Castle HST sets from Reading to go to Bristol, then you might as well be running the class 387's from Reading as well. That means getting the passengers that would have started their Journey from London Paddington to Reading.

The class 769's are technically Class 319's with a diesel engine added, but I do take your point.

But there remains a very regular service to Paddington - albeit slower. I wouldn’t see it as a priority. Instead you run a Didcot-Paddington shuttle, calling at Reading.

 

[Aictos]

For me it would be as follows:

Hull Trains is more difficult, but I would have them using any spare class 43 and Mk3 coaches other than the ones recently by EMR. I know that they will not be disability approved, but other than finding a use for class 365 units where they can free up not electric powered units somewhere, I cannot see any other option.

Unless they have special dispensation, it would be illegal to operate such a HST for Hull Trains and would not a comfortable journey too if the toilets have to be locked out of use if they do not meet legislation.

As such, I would suspend Hull Trains operations and using Class 365s won't happen as Hull Trains don't even sign them and in any case the drivers who did sign them (GN drivers) don't sign north of Peterborough so it be pointless.

 

[RobShipway]

But there remains a very regular service to Paddington - albeit slower. I wouldn’t see it as a priority. Instead you run a Didcot-Paddington shuttle, calling at Reading.

The class 165's from the Thames Valley, would be running non stop between London Paddington to Reading. I would leave the stopping services to Reading to the TFL services. The class 387's doing services from reading to Cardiff, would be stopping at Didcot in travelling to Cardiff.

 

[JamesRowden]

Hire a freight company to transfer passengers in wagons

 

[PTR 444]

GWR

• Run regular 12-car fast Class 387 services between Paddington/Didcot and Paddington/Newbury
• Serve Newbury - Bedwyn with a Class 165 shuttle
• Run an hourly Castle HST service between Didcot and Penzance via Swindon and Westbury (Melksham would be bustituted as a result)
• Run an hourly Didcot - Bristol TM service via Bath using Class 165/166s
• Operate all Oxford/Worcester services using Class 165/166s and curtail at Didcot in the up direction
• Operate Swindon - Cheltenham as a Class 165 shuttle
• Use whatever IETs there are to cover Reading - Swansea

LNER

• Use a mixture of Class 91s and 365s brought back into service, and start services from Peterborough if there aren’t enough to cover the journey back from London.

TPE

• Split the Newcastle - Liverpool/Manchester Airport service at York, using Class 397s towards the former and 185s to the latter.

 

[skyhigh]

You need shuttle services to Reading as HST trains can no longer enter Paddington Station. So if you are going to be starting the Castle HST sets from Reading to go to Bristol, then you might as well be running the class 387's from Reading as well. That means getting the passengers that would have started their Journey from London Paddington to Reading.

The class 769's are technically Class 319's with a diesel engine added, but I do take your point.

Why can't HSTs enter Paddington station?

 

[Horizon22]

The class 165's from the Thames Valley, would be running non stop between London Paddington to Reading. I would leave the stopping services to Reading to the TFL services. The class 387's doing services from reading to Cardiff, would be stopping at Didcot in travelling to Cardiff.

But again why? A 387 can be utilised to run non-stop between those 2 stations.

GWR

• Run regular 12-car fast Class 387 services between Paddington/Didcot and Paddington/Newbury
• Serve Newbury - Bedwyn with a Class 165 shuttle
• Run an hourly Castle HST service between Didcot and Penzance via Swindon and Westbury (Melksham would be bustituted as a result)
• Run an hourly Didcot - Bristol TM service via Bath using Class 165/166s
• Operate all Oxford/Worcester services using Class 165/166s and curtail at Didcot in the up direction
• Operate Swindon - Cheltenham as a Class 165 shuttle
• Use whatever IETs there are to cover Reading - Swansea

LNER

• Use a mixture of Class 91s and 365s brought back into service, and start services from Peterborough if there aren’t enough to cover the journey back from London.

TPE

• Split the Newcastle - Liverpool/Manchester Airport service at York, using Class 397s towards the former and 185s to the latter.

Generally good but you might be blocking Didcot a bit too much. Might be worth extending some to Reading, if not just for greater platform availability.

 

[RobShipway]

Why can't HSTs enter Paddington station?

As someone said in one of the threads to do with the class 800 issues, GWR no longer has certification to allow them to run HST trains into London Paddington.

But again why? A 387 can be utilised to run non-stop between those 2 stations.



Generally good but you might be blocking Didcot a bit too much. Might be worth extending some to Reading, if not just for greater platform availability.

Yes, you could have the class 387 units going fast from London Paddington to Reading before going on to Didcot and Cardiff, but you would still need the class 165 doing shuttle services as well in between times, so that passengers can join the HST services from reading to Bristol, as HST's are no longer certified to enter London Paddington.

 

[skyhigh]

As someone said in one of the threads to do with the class 800 issues, GWR no longer has certification to allow them to run HST trains into London Paddington.

That's not true. The short sets are still allowed into Paddington.

 

[RobShipway]

That's not true. The short sets are still allowed into Paddington.

Where is your evidence that the short sets are allowed into Paddington please?

 

[Clansman]

You'd only run trains that crews are trained on. HSTs for LNER wouldn't work as every single crew member's competency has lapsed, and therefore would need significant retraining which frankly wouldn't be worth the hassle if, say hypothetically, the IEPs were out for only a couple of weeks. 365s also apply in that regard.

Early reinstating of any 225 rakes that are in good nick on as many Leeds/Yorks as possible, then Azumas to plug in on Edinburgh services as and when they return one by one.

That's as far as my thinking takes me in realism terms.

 

[skyhigh]

Where is your evidence that the short sets are allowed into Paddington please?

From a post on WNXX:

Is there any reason a 2+3 or 2+4 Castle couldn't go to Padd ? (even if route conducted)

None whatsoever, however the "optics of it" wouldn't look good so it's more likely to terminate at Reading!

Clearly the trains would be limited to 100mph on the main lines, but with so few trains running around it wouldn't be a problem.

The commenter is well respected and is involved with the GWR fleet, so I have no reason to doubt that. Where's your evidence?

 

[Fisherman80]

If theres any spare 321s,perhaps they could be used between Leeds and London as has happened before?

 

[cactustwirly]

There quite a number of HST sets running on the MML until very recently, could they be re introduced?

No because GWR hasn't got a HST safety case for routes into Paddington, and the train crew don't sign them

 

[RobShipway]

You'd only run trains that crews are trained on. HSTs for LNER wouldn't work as every single crew member's competency has lapsed, and therefore would need significant retraining which frankly wouldn't be worth the hassle if, say hypothetically, the IEPs were out for only a couple of weeks. 365s also apply in that regard.

Early reinstating of any 225 rakes that are in good nick on as many Leeds/Yorks as possible, then Azumas to plug in on Edinburgh services as and when they return one by one.

That's as far as my thinking takes me in realism terms.

I must confess I was struggling as to what trains other than the Class 225 rakes, LNER could use. As the current EMR HST trains, where previously LNER trains I thought that the drivers/crew would still have knowledge of how to operate the HST units.

 

[bengley]

If theres any spare 321s,perhaps they could be used between Leeds and London as has happened before?

There won't be any suitably trained drivers or guards.

It would take at best, weeks, to arrange such an operation

 

[cactustwirly]

I must confess I was struggling as to what trains other than the Class 225 rakes, LNER could use. As the current EMR HST trains, where previously LNER trains I thought that the drivers/crew would still have knowledge of how to operate the HST units.

That lapses after 6 months, it's been over a year since they were withdrawn from LNER

 

[Darandio]

If theres any spare 321s,perhaps they could be used between Leeds and London as has happened before?

Fantasy

 

[RobShipway]

From a post on WNXX:


The commenter is well respected and is involved with the GWR fleet, so I have no reason to doubt that. Where's your evidence?

See the post above from

cactustwirly.​

That lapses after 6 months, it's been over a year since they were withdrawn from LNER

Okay, thanks.

 

[popeter45]

for GWR i would say if they are allowed they could run 387's on a paddinton-cardiff service any make use for XC services/ Castle sets for the cornish routes with a change at bristol parkway
for LNER with the limited 91's on hand i would say focus on Kings cross - edinburgh services with Leeds passengers using TPE for connections from york and scotrail HST's for onwards connections to Aberdeen and Inverness

 

[C37]

If this is likely to be a prolonged issue, then there will surely have to be flexibility on allowing redundant but useful HST sets to run on the LNER rather than sit idle?

I get that driver's tickets may have lapsed, but surely even after a year drivers will still retain the knowledge and competence to operate them if needs must?

 

[Clansman]

If this is likely to be a prolonged issue, then there will surely have to be flexibility on allowing redundant but useful HST sets to run on the LNER rather than sit idle?

I get that driver's tickets may have lapsed, but surely even after a year drivers will still retain the knowledge and competence to operate them if needs must?

It doesn't matter if the crews remember how to work them. After 6-months of not working them, their competency is officially lapsed. Nothing can be done to apply an exception as ultimatley safety comes first.

So drivers and guards alike would need to go through a retraining session that would be no quicker for staff who've worked them before, than staff who haven't, as well as the relevant maintenance staff and the facilities to be able to accomodate any need to service the HSTs further.

The process is far more complex.