The Nicola and Alex Show

[XAM2175]

The monarchy/republic question doesn't necessarily need to be resolved upfront - indeed Barbados is transitioning to being a republic later this year.

As to those two specific scenarios; I can't see either of them being put forward in exactly those ways.

 

[brad465]

Huzzah! I commend this toast to the house!

Hallelujah.

I'm glad he didn't get in as his party seemed to have really appeared out of nowhere.

There was an opinion poll on approval ratings for Scottish party leaders that had Salmond on -70, which someone joked was on a par with coronavirus.

 

[takno]

The monarchy/republic question doesn't necessarily need to be resolved upfront - indeed Barbados is transitioning to being a republic later this year.

As to those two specific scenarios; I can't see either of them being put forward in exactly those ways.

I tend to agree, although it's an interesting thought putting together a ballot with a couple of independence scenarios against remain. The monarchy bit is probably a red-herring, but independence within the UK orbit, the EU orbit or complete isolationism are things I'd be keen to test.

It could focus minds a bit more and get people discussing what they actually wanted out of independence, and whether it was likely to be achieved, as well as encouraging unionists to consider independence scenarios that might not be too bad.

Certainly I'd be a lot more up for an independent Scotland that was legally committed to seeking to rejoin Europe than I would be to just voting Yes and trusting the SNP to judge what's best for us

 

[yorksrob]

Are you ever tempted to wish it was FPTP in Scotland ?

It would have been a massacre

Quite contented that we are still number 2 with our hookey system despite it's foibles and a new telegenic Labour Leader.

If Independence comes we will be fighting on a level playing field and you'd better watch out.

The Scottish Conservative (and possibly) ex Unionist Party is here to stay.

I know the Tories started out as Jacobites, but is there any point to them without the Union ?

 

[GusB]

Are you ever tempted to wish it was FPTP in Scotland ?

It would have been a massacre

Quite contented that we are still number 2 with our hookey system despite it's foibles and a new telegenic Labour Leader.

If Independence comes we will be fighting on a level playing field and you'd better watch out.

The Scottish Conservative (and possibly) ex Unionist Party is here to stay.

I really don't understand your position sometimes. As far as I recall, you were in favour of independence; how on earth do you think that will come about if you continue to vote tory?

I'm also not quite sure what you mean about a level playing field after independence. If you mean that the pro-independence parties will disappear, I'm not so sure. The SNP will indeed have lost its raison d'etre, but if this is the case I could possibly see voters gradually drifting back to the parties that they used to vote for but switched because they wanted to see a pro-independence majority. So we'll probably see increased support for Labour and the LibDems again. The tories have had a bit of a bounce in recent years; they will have benefitted from the pro-union vote and also the pro-Brexit vote, but we haven't yet felt the full effects of Brexit.

Now that there is a pro independence majority (SNP + Greens), I wonder what version of independence would be put forward?

1) Still pledge allegiance to Lizzie (or Charlie when his time comes), tying a Scottish currency to the British Pound, being a member of NATO (Angus Robertson got the opposition to NATO changed at the 2012 SNP party conference, but the Greens still remain opposed) but still scrapping Trident (which would make it harder, as it took Germany a good number of years to get rid of US tactical missiles as they were under the guise of NATO), rejoining the European Union

or

2) A republic of Scotland that has its own currency, not a member of the EU, and elected members of Parliament not having to pledge allegiance to the monarchy?

Various options will be discussed pre-independence, but many of these decisions can only be made afterwards. You can't have the government of the day deciding what path a government of the future will take, and this is what annoys me when unionists constantly scream "what's your plan, then?"

Matters such as rejoining the EU are not a foregone conclusion either; they would have to be put to the electorate. I'd be quite happy to settle for membership of EFTA/EEA.

 

[yorksrob]

Various options will be discussed pre-independence, but many of these decisions can only be made afterwards. You can't have the government of the day deciding what path a government of the future will take, and this is what annoys me when unionists constantly scream "what's your plan, then?"

Like Brexit then.

 

[Journeyman]

Like Brexit then.

Yup. Brexit has proven to be a costly, complex disaster with many unintended consequences, that has caused serious problems for many people. It didn't help that at least one side negotiated in bad faith throughout.

I fully expect independence to be just as bad, very likely worse. There's no way it's worth the problems it will cause.

 

[yorksrob]

Yup. Brexit has proven to be a costly, complex disaster with many unintended consequences, that has caused serious problems for many people. It didn't help that at least one side negotiated in bad faith throughout.

I fully expect independence to be just as bad, very likely worse. There's no way it's worth the problems it will cause.

Indeed. And I say this as someone who was not particularly committed and isn't currently to EU membership. Vote for separation if you believe in it, but don't kid yourself its different.

 

[Journeyman]

Indeed. And I say this as someone who was not particularly committed and isn't currently to EU membership. Vote for separation if you believe in it, but don't kid yourself its different.

Of course. Look how complex it was separating ourselves from a loose political union of 40 years, where everything is properly documented to modern standards.

The documents relating to much of Scotland and England's relationship either don't exist, or are written in Latin on goatskin. Try disentangling that lot.

 

[AlterEgo]

Like Brexit then.

Scottish independence has always been just like Brexit but on a smaller playing board and with even fewer prospects.

Nobody even knows what currency they’ll be using after independence, who the head of state will be, how the border will be administered, etc etc.

I don’t oppose independence for Scotland but I don’t like the intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Journeyman]

I don’t oppose independence for Scotland but I don’t like the intellectual dishonesty.

Most members of the SNP know it will need austerity on steroids for decades, which will cause untold suffering, but they won't admit it. This makes me extremely angry. They are, like Brexiteers, promising unicorns and rainbows with absolutely no downsides.

 

[yorksrob]

Scottish independence has always been just like Brexit but on a smaller playing board and with even fewer prospects.

Nobody even knows what currency they’ll be using after independence, who the head of state will be, how the border will be administered, etc etc.

I don’t oppose independence for Scotland but I don’t like the intellectual dishonesty.

By a similar token, as someone who wasn't particularly affiliated to the EU, I can see the point, but it's not that different.

 

[takno]

I really don't understand your position sometimes. As far as I recall, you were in favour of independence; how on earth do you think that will come about if you continue to vote tory?

I'm also not quite sure what you mean about a level playing field after independence. If you mean that the pro-independence parties will disappear, I'm not so sure. The SNP will indeed have lost its raison d'etre, but if this is the case I could possibly see voters gradually drifting back to the parties that they used to vote for but switched because they wanted to see a pro-independence majority. So we'll probably see increased support for Labour and the LibDems again. The tories have had a bit of a bounce in recent years; they will have benefitted from the pro-union vote and also the pro-Brexit vote, but we haven't yet felt the full effects of Brexit.



Various options will be discussed pre-independence, but many of these decisions can only be made afterwards. You can't have the government of the day deciding what path a government of the future will take, and this is what annoys me when unionists constantly scream "what's your plan, then?"

Matters such as rejoining the EU are not a foregone conclusion either; they would have to be put to the electorate. I'd be quite happy to settle for membership of EFTA/EEA.

I'm assuming that the very least an independent Scotland would do is get itself a proper constitution. Unlike the British principle of not binding a future government, a constitution would very much bind a future government within sensible parameters. There's no very good reason that a constitution shouldn't attempt to determine the position a the future government takes on international relations, even if it's just for the first 10 years or so.

There are two main paths independence could take. One is a little better than the union and the other is very much worse. If we can't decide on that upfront then voting against independence is the safest vote.

 

[JonathanH]

Why didn't the message that voting SNP for the constituency vote and Alba for the regional vote get through to anyone? If independence was the primary issue, there could have been nearly 90 MSPs with an independence mandate at Holyrood (or am I being too simplistic)? It seems an absolute 'no brainer' - indeed why didn't the SNP simply stand aside on the list vote?

 

[Journeyman]

Why didn't the message that voting SNP for the constituency vote and Alba for the regional vote get through to anyone? If independence was the primary issue, there could have been nearly 90 MSPs with an independence mandate at Holyrood (or am I being too simplistic)? It seems an absolute 'no brainer' - indeed why didn't the SNP simply stand aside on the list vote?

Because Salmond is so toxic that the SNP couldn't be seen to be working with him. It would have cost them a lot of votes if they had. They knew they'd do well enough, with the support of the Greens, to get over the line.

I think Alba only really appealed to a tiny number of people who can look past Salmond's appalling behaviour, massive ego and appetite for revenge.

 

[GusB]

I'm assuming that the very least an independent Scotland would do is get itself a proper constitution. Unlike the British principle of not binding a future government, a constitution would very much bind a future government within sensible parameters. There's no very good reason that a constitution shouldn't attempt to determine the position a the future government takes on international relations, even if it's just for the first 10 years or so.

There are two main paths independence could take. One is a little better than the union and the other is very much worse. If we can't decide on that upfront then voting against independence is the safest vote.

A proper constitution would indeed be a priority. I think I've posted this on another thread, but you might find it interesting:

Home - Constitution for Scotland - The Interactive Consultation

Dedicated to conducting and administering a public consultation on the content and subsequent promotion into legislation of a Constitution endorsed by credible numbers of Scottish citizens.

constitutionforscotland.scot

Why didn't the message that voting SNP for the constituency vote and Alba for the regional vote get through to anyone? If independence was the primary issue, there could have been nearly 90 MSPs with an independence mandate at Holyrood (or am I being too simplistic)? It seems an absolute 'no brainer' - indeed why didn't the SNP simply stand aside on the list vote?

The SNP apparently don't endorse voting for any candidates other than their own. The only chance they have of getting MSPs on the list is where there's likely to be a significant support for them in areas where they can't take the constituency. Voting for them on the regional ballot makes sense in such areas, an example being in the south of Scotland where the constituency vote tends towards the tories. An SNP vote on both ballots where they are likely to take all the constituency seats results in wasted votes. I voted SNP for the constituency and Green for the list; the first was because the tories are fairly popular around these parts and the second was because I support the Scottish Green party. See below for my opinions on Alba...

Because Salmond is so toxic that the SNP couldn't be seen to be working with him. It would have cost them a lot of votes if they had. They knew they'd do well enough, with the support of the Greens, to get over the line.

I think Alba only really appealed to a tiny number of people who can look past Salmond's appalling behaviour, massive ego and appetite for revenge.

This. In my opinion, the Alba party was nothing but an ego trip for Salmond. There was a pro-independence majority in the last term of the Scottish Parliament and the opinion polls suggested that there would be again with the same two parties. He may well have been found not guilty of the charges that were brought against him (there was also one that was not-proven), but it really did not sit well with me and I would never have given them my second vote.

 

[JonathanH]

The SNP apparently don't endorse voting for any candidates other than their own.

Of course, it would be an odd thing to do.

I voted SNP for the constituency and Green for the list;

Indeed. If Alba was toxic then every SNP supporter should have done this.

 

[Journeyman]

I think Salmond's dream was to win enough seats to sideline the Greens, and become the party propping up the SNP - he knew they'd not get enough on the constituencies alone. Of course, he'd make the price of his support extremely high.

Seems most SNP voters saw right through it. I can't help laughing at the SNP MPs and councillors who have jumped ship - talk about shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[GusB]

I think Salmond's dream was to win enough seats to sideline the Greens, and become the party propping up the SNP - he knew they'd not get enough on the constituencies alone. Of course, he'd make the price of his support extremely high.

Seems most SNP voters saw right through it. I can't help laughing at the SNP MPs and councillors who have jumped ship - talk about shooting themselves in the foot.

With both barrels

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm assuming that the very least an independent Scotland would do is get itself a proper constitution. Unlike the British principle of not binding a future government, a constitution would very much bind a future government within sensible parameters. There's no very good reason that a constitution shouldn't attempt to determine the position a the future government takes on international relations, even if it's just for the first 10 years or so.

There are two main paths independence could take. One is a little better than the union and the other is very much worse. If we can't decide on that upfront then voting against independence is the safest vote.

Sounds great.

To the Nicola fans; What would the constitution look like? Or is that rather important detail something the SNP - who are close to operating without opposition - would work out afterwards?

Just about every legitimate complaint against Brexit can be made against the idea of Scottish independence.

Work out the details first. The Irish accept that Northern Ireland’s potential reunion requires serious work and thought before the sabres rattle for a border poll.

Park the idea for ten years and come back to it once you’ve figured out how it’ll all work. It might even get you a little time to work out who the armed forces of Scotland will be, or what sort of money you’ll use!

 

[Journeyman]

Sounds great.

To the Nicola fans; What would the constitution look like? Or is that rather important detail something the SNP - who are close to operating without opposition - would work out afterwards?

Just about every legitimate complaint against Brexit can be made against the idea of Scottish independence.

Work out the details first. The Irish accept that Northern Ireland’s potential reunion requires serious work and thought before the sabres rattle for a border poll.

Park the idea for ten years and come back to it once you’ve figured out how it’ll all work. It might even get you a little time to work out who the armed forces of Scotland will be, or what sort of money you’ll use!

Yeah, spot on with the bold bit there. Support for independence still hasn't lifted significantly since Brexit, and I think many Scots, however much they oppose Brexit, have accepted that it's happened, and needs to be given a chance to work. At the moment, the effects of it are almost impossible to disentangle from the monster that is COVID, so the jury is out.

Rejoining the EU on independence would likely create a much harder border with England, that would cause absolutely horrific problems for many people on both sides.

 

[GusB]

*sigh*

I'm not going to disagree that there are certain parallels with Brexit. When the UK as a whole voted for Brexit, was there not a certain period of time before Article 50 was triggered? That period of time should have been used for a bit of reflection on the result, then there should have been a positive dialogue between all parties about how the outcome could be achieved. That didn't happen. It was "leave means leave"; all the stuff that we'd been promised about remaining in the single market and retaining freedom of movement went out the window. It's "hard Brexit" and bugger the lot of you if you disagree.

If Scotland does vote for independence it won't just happen overnight. It won't simply be a case of "Bye, then"; there will be a period of time for proper negotiation before the final details are agreed.

 

[Butts]

I really don't understand your position sometimes. As far as I recall, you were in favour of independence; how on earth do you think that will come about if you continue to vote tory?

I'm also not quite sure what you mean about a level playing field after independence. If you mean that the pro-independence parties will disappear, I'm not so sure. The SNP will indeed have lost its raison d'etre, but if this is the case I could possibly see voters gradually drifting back to the parties that they used to vote for but switched because they wanted to see a pro-independence majority. So we'll probably see increased support for Labour and the LibDems again. The tories have had a bit of a bounce in recent years; they will have benefitted from the pro-union vote and also the pro-Brexit vote, but we haven't yet felt the full effects of Brexit.



Various options will be discussed pre-independence, but many of these decisions can only be made afterwards. You can't have the government of the day deciding what path a government of the future will take, and this is what annoys me when unionists constantly scream "what's your plan, then?"

Matters such as rejoining the EU are not a foregone conclusion either; they would have to be put to the electorate. I'd be quite happy to settle for membership of EFTA/EEA.

Strange neither does my psychiatrist.

If you remember Scottish Conservatives were against the formation of a Scottish Parliament / Assembly (I wasn't) but have to be pragmatic and work with whatever system evolves. They would adopt the same rationale in the event of Independence.

You may have overlooked I voted to leave the EU as well - there are a few of us about who favour a break from both.

I appreciate we will be poorer to start off with, for perhaps many years, but some consider that a price worth paying to be able to control your own destiny.

 

[oldman]

a price worth paying to be able to control your own destiny.

Aye, there's the rub! If your destiny is having new car number plates and repainting the postboxes and pulling down statues and renaming streets, you can control it. But as we are finding with Brexit, when it comes to the economy, sturdy independence is a myth and erecting barriers a folly.

But to be fair, European history shows that people often like the idea of an national community. Wha's like us? Well, no' them for a start.

 

[AlterEgo]

*sigh*

I'm not going to disagree that there are certain parallels with Brexit. When the UK as a whole voted for Brexit, was there not a certain period of time before Article 50 was triggered? That period of time should have been used for a bit of reflection on the result, then there should have been a positive dialogue between all parties about how the outcome could be achieved. That didn't happen. It was "leave means leave"; all the stuff that we'd been promised about remaining in the single market and retaining freedom of movement went out the window. It's "hard Brexit" and bugger the lot of you if you disagree.

If Scotland does vote for independence it won't just happen overnight. It won't simply be a case of "Bye, then"; there will be a period of time for proper negotiation before the final details are agreed.

A lot like Brexit then - in fact it is exactly the same principle. Have a look at that and see if the "ah it'll be alright on the night" mentality is how Scotland should start life as an independent nation.

Unless you're suggesting any referendum on independence should not be binding in any way whatsoever without some *waves hands* period of...reflection and discussion?

I appreciate we will be poorer to start off with, for perhaps many years, but some consider that a price worth paying to be able to control your own destiny.

Who would Scotland's armed forces be? Has that conversation even remotely happened yet? How will you control your own destiny? How will an independent Scotland ensure it isn't a vassal state of England, as it has hilariously claimed to be over the last ten years? What money will you use, and who will actually control your monetary policy?

 

[duncanp]

I appreciate we will be poorer to start off with, for perhaps many years, but some consider that a price worth paying to be able to control your own destiny.

Isn't one of reasons for wanting Scottish independence so that Scotland can rejoin the EU.

"Control your own destiny" and membership of the EU are incompatible, no matter how much Nicola Sturgeon may try and gloss over this fact.

 

[Journeyman]

Aye, there's the rub! If your destiny is having new car number plates and repainting the postboxes and pulling down statues and renaming streets, you can control it. But as we are finding with Brexit, when it comes to the economy, sturdy independence is a myth and erecting barriers a folly.

But to be fair, European history shows that people often like the idea of an national community. Wha's like us? Well, no' them for a start.

Exactly. I'm not willing to make life more difficult and trash my prosperity for something so trivial.

 

[yorksrob]

The Indyref2 legislation needs to be a proper Article 50 for the devolved nations which should set out the following:

- The process by which a devolved Government can seccede, i.e. call a referendum
- The period for which the decision of the referendum is binding. Thirty years seems sensible for a "once in a generation" decision.

In a way, it's just bringing Scotland and Wales in line with NI which has its border poll mechanism.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

*sigh*

I'm not going to disagree that there are certain parallels with Brexit. When the UK as a whole voted for Brexit, was there not a certain period of time before Article 50 was triggered? That period of time should have been used for a bit of reflection on the result, then there should have been a positive dialogue between all parties about how the outcome could be achieved. That didn't happen. It was "leave means leave"; all the stuff that we'd been promised about remaining in the single market and retaining freedom of movement went out the window. It's "hard Brexit" and bugger the lot of you if you disagree.

If Scotland does vote for independence it won't just happen overnight. It won't simply be a case of "Bye, then"; there will be a period of time for proper negotiation before the final details are agreed.

I agree with you that there should've been more positive dialogue after the Brexit referendum - but what makes you so sure the same problem won't happen if a future referendum produces a (narrow) pro-independence vote? Can you really be sure the SNP won't act in the same way that the pro-Brexit politicians did after 2016: Just say, 'Independence means Independence' and proceed to steamroll through whatever they want, ignoring any concerns of everyone in Scotland who didn't vote for independence?

 

[Journeyman]

I agree with you that there should've been more positive dialogue after the Brexit referendum - but what makes you so sure the same problem won't happen if a future referendum produces a (narrow) pro-independence vote? Can you really be sure the SNP won't act in the same way that the pro-Brexit politicians did after 2016: Just say, 'Independence means Independence' and proceed to steamroll through whatever they want, ignoring any concerns of everyone in Scotland who didn't vote for independence?

That's exactly what they'll do. The concerns of unionists are already completely ignored, and we're treated like we either don't exist, or are a bunch of far-right, knuckle-dragging thugs.