Flexible Rail Season Tickets - 2/3 days per week to be introduced by June 2021

[JonathanH]

Are there any operator-restricted 7DSs ??

Yes - Peterborough to London, various ones on the West Coast, Leeds to York and others.

 

[Starmill]

This bit:


Are there any operator-restricted 7DSs ??

Loads. Stockport to Manchester on TransPennine Express Only or St Helens Central to Liverpool Lime Street Northern Only.

 

[Ianno87]

It would also be interesting to know whether Flexi season tickets will be offered only on flows that have an existing 7DS prices, or whether they'll additionally be offered for some longer distance journeys that currently do not have a season ticket.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I've done a few quick sums based on a range of likely commuting destinations from my local station (to Stoke-on-Trent, Derby, Nottingham, Manchester, Crewe, Stafford, Birmingham).

Birmingham is a problem because no SDR exists, only an SOR valid for a month, so the discount appears greater because the base fare is significantly higher for a comparable distance. East Midlands Railway set most of the fares, Cross-Country set those for Stafford and Birmingham.

Compared to buying an SDR five days per week for a year (260 days), an annual season offers the following discount 37%, 30%, 26%, 32%, 32%, 28%, 52%. I can see why the rail industry wants to introduce flexi-seasons with just an 11% to 13% discount. KERCHING!

The break-even point, at which it is cheaper to buy an annual season than individual SDR's is (in days) 165, 182, 192, 176, 178, 187, 124.

There are complications such as weekend use over all or part of the validity, holidays etc.

Now lets see what the flexi-seasons are released at!

 

[Watershed]

And one will hope there'll be an end to TOC A not having the correct equipment to read TOC B's perfectly valid smartcard.

I don't think the reading/scanning side of things that's been the problem - more the refusal to use and comply with standards (e.g. Merseyrail claiming you must get a Walrus card to get a Daysave, when any ITSO smartcard would do).

If true, that "feels" like very good value. Presuming that it's not referring to the per week cost of the season ticket averaged out... (what I fear the statement might be saying is more expensive than buying a day return, but cheaper than buying a weekly ticket every week)

I suspect it will be very poor value on almost all flows. It's going to be something around 10% cheaper per day than an SDR. Given that most season tickets are set around 3-4 times the cost of an SDR, i.e. a discount of 20-40%, it's pretty disappointing.

True "flexible" seasons would simply be 5 days' worth of travel, to be used over 2/3/4 weeks, for the cost of a weekly season (or something very close to that). This is simply a glorified carnet system.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think the reading/scanning side of things that's been the problem - more the refusal to use and comply with standards (e.g. Merseyrail claiming you must get a Walrus card to get a Daysave, when any ITSO smartcard would do).


I suspect it will be very poor value on almost all flows. It's going to be something around 10% cheaper per day than an SDR. Given that most season tickets are set around 3-4 times the cost of an SDR, i.e. a discount of 20-40%, it's pretty disappointing.

True "flexible" seasons would simply be 5 days' worth of travel, to be used over 2/3/4 weeks, for the cost of a weekly season (or something very close to that). This is simply a glorified carnet system.

Well, logically, the price of a flexi season cannot be cheaper than a 7DS, as you'd be paying less to get one extra day of validity!

I suspect the wording of the NRE page is trying to say the relative discount will fall between the two. Which I think will be pretty disappointing in most cases against just buying SDRs when you need them and accepting that might occasionally come out more expensive.

They'll only be good value (I think) if the SDR price is relatively high compared to the 7DS.

 

[Watershed]

Well, logically, the price of a flexi season cannot be cheaper than a 7DS, as you'd be paying less to get one extra day of validity!

I don't think anyone really expects it to be cheaper per day than a season ticket, but equally the rates they have gone with are quite a let-down.

I suspect the wording of the NRE page is trying to say the relative discount will fall between the two. Which I think will be pretty disappointing in most cases against just buying SDRs when you need them and accepting that might occasionally come out more expensive.

Yep, precisely. I think it's a little misleading because it suggests the discount will be fairly generous (as season ticket discounts are), when in most cases it will be very poor.

They'll only be good value (I think) if the SDR price is relatively high compared to the 7DS.

Other way around - consider Stevenage to London. The SDR is £23.90, the 7DS £101.70 - a ratio of 4.3. It is already only worth buying a season if you consistently travel more than 4 days a week.

So if you get a 10% discount on the SDR with this flexi season, that's actually quite decent. But it is a very rare example.

 

[Wolfie]

If true, that "feels" like very good value. Presuming that it's not referring to the per week cost of the season ticket averaged out... (what I fear the statement might be saying is more expensive than buying a day return, but cheaper than buying a weekly ticket every week)

I believe that your bracketed statement is pretty much exactly what it is saying. The cost of a X day flexible ticket will be X times the cost of a day return minus a discount which will less (but necessarily that much less) than the cost of a weekly.
Alternatively you could regard the daily cost of a X day flexible ticket as being between the average daily cost of a weekly and the cost of a day return but much closer to the latter.

 

[Ianno87]

Other way around - consider Stevenage to London. The SDR is £23.90, the 7DS £101.70 - a ratio of 4.3. It is already only worth buying a season if you consistently travel more than 4 days a week.

So if you get a 10% discount on the SDR with this flexi season, that's actually quite decent. But it is a very rare example.

Take an example of Cambridge-Birmingham:
SOR (no SDR) = £109.70
7DS = £228.20 (x 2.08)

So a 7DS is a ~58% discount on daily tickets (if you're nuts enough to do that every day...). I think my logic is if:
A) The 58% is the "upper bound" of the possible discount, and
B) Operators choose to price it with a large discount within this bound

Then it will be good value.

(B) of course, is a very big "if"! I agree if the discount is closer to 10% that will be in favour of examples like Stevenage-London

 

[Haywain]

the statement might be saying is more expensive than buying a day return, but cheaper than buying a weekly ticket every week

Surely, to be worth even attempting to sell a flexi ticket it has to be cheaper than a day return?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So are these essentially just time-limited electronic/smartcard carnet tickets?

 

[Wolfie]

Surely, to be worth even attempting to sell a flexi ticket it has to be cheaper than a day return?

If you mean cheaper per day that it's valid then of course.

 

[Ianno87]

Surely, to be worth even attempting to sell a flexi ticket it has to be cheaper than a day return?

If you mean cheaper per day that it's valid then of course.

Yes, meant per day.

 

[30907]

Take an example of Cambridge-Birmingham:
SOR (no SDR) = £109.70
7DS = £228.20 (x 2.08)

So a 7DS is a ~58% discount on daily tickets (if you're nuts enough to do that every day...). I think my logic is if:
A) The 58% is the "upper bound" of the possible discount, and
B) Operators choose to price it with a large discount within this bound

Then it will be good value.

(B) of course, is a very big "if"! I agree if the discount is closer to 10% that will be in favour of examples like Stevenage-London

My hunch: it will be ca. 10% less than the cheaper of:
7DS x4
SOR/SDR x8
which will cover the heavily discounted seasons/heavily inflated SOR over longer distances.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Following on from my previous calculations, I've looked at the discounts presently offered by EMR on their current flexi offer (10 tickets valid for 1 month, 20 tickets valid for 3 months). A measly 5% discount on the SDR price. Two 7 day seasons (ie 10 working days for a normal m-f commute) are cheaper than a flexi10 ticket. More so if make any weekend journeys.

In simple terms £129.00 for 10*SDR, £122.60 for a flexi10 or £117.40 for 7 day season*2. The pro-rata price of a 7 day season for 10 days would be £83.86.

 

[Wolfie]

My hunch: it will be ca. 10% less than the cheaper of:
7DS x4
SOR/SDR x8x4
which will cover the heavily discounted seasons/heavily inflated SOR over longer distances.

Not quite sure what the x8x4 means

Following on from my previous calculations, I've looked at the discounts presently offered by EMR on their current flexi offer (10 tickets valid for 1 month, 20 tickets valid for 3 months). A measly 5% discount on the SDR price. Two 7 day seasons (ie 10 working days for a normal m-f commute) are cheaper than a flexi10 ticket. More so if make any weekend journeys.

In simple terms £129.00 for 10*SDR, £122.60 for a flexi10 or £117.40 for 7 day season*2. The pro-rata price of a 7 day season for 10 days would be £83.86.

Re your last para that pro-rata calculation is massively disingenuous as it assumes, for the 7DS, that all days are equal. How many people work 7 straight days? The chances are that the season would see at least less and potentially no use on 2 days of the 7 day period. If you allowed straight pro-rataing of the 7 day price therefore no one would buy a 7 day ticket and pay for days that they wouldn't use.

 

[infobleep]

Also being discussed at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ue-neutral-fare-reform-possible.217496/page-3
See eg my post #79 which suggests (as per island here) 10% per day or so against SDR - so fo 8 days it's typically a bit under 2x a weekly.

I couldn't guarantee is be in the office 2 days a week every week and thus the time period they are valid for is too short.

I also have the ability to travel after 9:30. So in theory I could work from home and then get the train.

At other times I might wish to travel into the office and then to my parents, returning home the next day. No carnet ticket would help with that as the aim is for you to return to your starting location.

Of course if they make more advanced purchase tickets available more widely, whilst not a flexible season ticket, it may help.

 

[JonathanH]

I couldn't garrentee is be in the office 2 days a week every week and thus the time period they are valid for is too short.

If someone isn't going in at least 2 days a week, they really ought to just be buying day returns. I don't see what responsibility the railway has to reduce fares for that level of travel.

 

[30907]

Not quite sure what the x8x4 means

Apologies, there is something in my autocorrupt. Corrected to x8.

 

[infobleep]

There is more detail available on NRE here.

Flexi seasons will be priced between the SDR and 7DS.

They will be available on smartcard and/or as e-tickets. There will be no CCST option. A day's travel will be activated by touching a smartcard on a reader (at a barrier, validator or ticket machine), or for e-tickets I imagine there will be an in-app option (so printing them off won't really be very practicable).

They will offer unlimited travel, including break of journey, on the date they are activated (and until 04:29am the next morning, as per railway custom).

They will be refundable, subject to at least one day's travel being unused (and the usual £10 admin fee). The refund will be based on the cost of SDRs for the number of days activated.

In case of disruption, passengers will be able to apply for Delay Repay provided they have activated a day's travel.

I wonder how many eticket versions will be available. For example what about ones where travel can include the underground but it's not a travel card and you start outside of London?

I read it states where available. That won't include journeys through London.

Also, does every station have a yellow card reader yet and are there any stations where people might commute that don't? And if they don't, where they might not have mobile data reception to use the National Rail Smartcard smartphone app, assuming they have a smartphone?

Surely, to be worth even attempting to sell a flexi ticket it has to be cheaper than a day return?

What about Guildford to Portsmouth? When I use to travel in that direction it was technically cheaper to buy a ticket 366 days of the year than a season ticket, as the season ticket was only priced in one direction - that is Portsmouth to Guildford.

Guildford to Portsmouth was so much cheaper. I would at times buy 5-day tickets for the next week at once. I wouldn't do that now as no point in buying in advance if walk-up tickets but back then I did.

If someone isn't going in at least 2 days a week, they really ought to just be buying day returns. I don't see what responsibility the railway has to reduce fares for that level of travel.

Well some bus companies offer carnet tickets valid for a year I believe and that is what is like. Basically I'd like a discount for buying multiple tickets in advance.

They are getting the money up front

 

[Haywain]

What about Guildford to Portsmouth? When I use to travel in that direction it was technically cheaper to buy a ticket 366 days of the year than a season ticket, as the season ticket was only priced in one direction - that is Portsmouth to Guildford.

Guildford to Portsmouth was so much cheaper. I would at times buy 5-day tickets for the next week at once. I wouldn't do that now as no point in buying in advance if walk-up tickets but back then I did.

There is clearly a difficulty in those areas where there are price differentials according to direction of travel. I don’t have an answer to that but it applies equally to season tickets as it will to a flexible product.

 

[infobleep]

There is clearly a difficulty in those areas where there are price differentials according to direction of travel. I don’t have an answer to that but it applies equally to season tickets as it will to a flexible product.

Given they are keen for people to not pay more than they should, perhaps they could introduce a calculator that checks to see if the carnet will cost more than the same number of day returns and put up a warning before purchase.

If people need to make unlimited journeys in one day then it might still be worth their while but at least they would be informed.

Mind you I don't see that happening.

 

[Wolfie]

Apologies, there is something in my autocorrupt. Corrected to x8.

No worries, TY.

 

[Hadders]

There inherent problem is the difference between the SDR and the 7DS.

Stevenage to London:
SDR £23.90
7DS £101.70 (equivalent to £20.34 per journey assuming 5 return journeys a week)

Offer a carnet style ticket at £21.50 (a 10% saving, which they already do) and it's a reasonable deal. A 'full fat' season ticket holder should always get the best value.

Now consider a similar length journey, Reading to London:

SDR £50.20
7DS £121.60 (equivalent to £24.32 per journey assuming 5 return journeys)

A carnet at £45.20 (10% discount) won't cut it. Passengers would expect to pay around £27 but that would be a huge discount on the SDR.

Maybe one way it could be looked at is to price carnets at a premium over the 7DS daily equivilant fare rather than a discount on the SDR. Although that wouldn't always work:

Milton Keynes to Manchester:
SOR £239.00
7DS £247.90 (equivilant to £49.58 for 5 journeys a week)

A carnet at around £60 per journey would be great for passengers but there's no way the rail industry would offer it.

It isn't easy.....

 

[westv]

Presumably, if this is going to up and running in a few weeks, it won't be long before a full list of fares is available.

 

[BrianW]

Tuned into Transport Cttee on line (tough choice vs Cummings!) .. https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/9783fe54-3b04-40d4-b74c-32b0349dd43e
re Flexitickets- I just heard Keith Williams say the railways are 'a bit behind other industries' and 'need the right people in the right place'. I've just looked up OysterCard- it came in in 2003- that's 18 years ago, and still not in Manchester!!!
And the SoS- when asked how much discount for Flexi? The Treasury will decide!
A lot of work to do in the month ahead!! Over-promising; under-delivering ahead?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Milton Keynes to Manchester:
SOR £239.00
7DS £247.90 (equivilant to £49.58 for 5 journeys a week)

A carnet at around £60 per journey would be great for passengers but there's no way the rail industry would offer it.

It isn't easy.....

This looks similar to the Bristol - London example too.
Anytime Day Return is £230 but the 7 day season is £352. So just two days in a 7 day period and you'd be better off with the season. How on earth would you price a flexible season ticket for that without either loosing a substantial amount of money from the anytime returns, or having people feel like they are being fleeced compared to the season?

Actually does raise a question which I've assumed the answer for above, but I've not actually seen it confirmed - is this going to be an option between pretty much any station (like current seasons are) or is it going to be a more limited option (like existing carnets often are)?

 

[35B]

Tuned into Transport Cttee on line (tough choice vs Cummings!) .. https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/9783fe54-3b04-40d4-b74c-32b0349dd43e
re Flexitickets- I just heard Keith Williams say the railways are 'a bit behind other industries' and 'need the right people in the right place'. I've just looked up OysterCard- it came in in 2003- that's 18 years ago, and still not in Manchester!!!
And the SoS- when asked how much discount for Flexi? The Treasury will decide!
A lot of work to do in the month ahead!! Over-promising; under-delivering ahead?

That delay in reaching Manchester may be because the wrong people were in the right place, and pushed ITSO rather than trying to take Oyster on to work elsewhere.

 

[Ianno87]

This looks similar to the Bristol - London example too.
Anytime Day Return is £230 but the 7 day season is £352. So just two days in a 7 day period and you'd be better off with the season. How on earth would you price a flexible season ticket for that without either loosing a substantial amount of money from the anytime returns, or having people feel like they are being fleeced compared to the season?

Whether you lose money depends on how many tickets you'd be selling otherwise. Might be better to offer better value and actually sell some tickets than something highly priced that nobody buys.

 

[Watershed]

Anytime Day Return is £230 but the 7 day season is £352. So just two days in a 7 day period and you'd be better off with the season. How on earth would you price a flexible season ticket for that without either loosing a substantial amount of money from the anytime returns, or having people feel like they are being fleeced compared to the season?

Those kinds of Anytime Returns are ludicrously expensive and are only really designed for business travellers with more money than time.

Realistically, there aren't many business travellers (as opposed to commuters) who would do the same journey regularly enough to take advantage of a carnet/flexi season. Particularly if were an 8 in 28 product - that means a substantial outlay to begin with. So, from that perspective, I see no reason why it couldn't be priced at a similar rate to the season ticket - perhaps 10 or 20% more.

You have to hope the Treasury eventually realise they're not going to attract back part-time commuters by ripping them off.

Actually does raise a question which I've assumed the answer for above, but I've not actually seen it confirmed - is this going to be an option between pretty much any station (like current seasons are) or is it going to be a more limited option (like existing carnets often are)?

I understand that it will be available for (almost) any flow which currently has a season.