Flexible Rail Season Tickets - 2/3 days per week to be introduced by June 2021

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that has nothing to do with it. Season tickets and anytime tickets in London and the South East are regulated - it is partly a function of what British Rail did and probably a desire to make money from one-off business travellers who aren't paying for themselves.

I guess that some of the price increases happened during the fares basket period.

Anytime Day Returns in London and the South East are also regulated, to be fair. That's why those ones are borderline-reasonable, but IC ones are almost all utterly outrageous.

 

[Starmill]

I think the right answer is for the carnets to be priced relative to the weekly season price, rather than relative to the anytime day return price as most carnets have been up to now. If they can manage that it should minimise the number of anomalies.

As I understand it the attempt was to develop a forumla which is weighted against both. Of course this won't always work, especially where the only season ticket is for a month or longer or for a zone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I understand it the attempt was to develop a forumla which is weighted against both.

Personally I'd just "keep it simple" and reduce the Anytime Day Return fare to something a bit more reasonable.

 

[Starmill]

Paper walk-up tickets were set at a very high rate (and still are) - £5 zone 1 single, isn't it?

Indeed, Zone 1 only on London Underground this year is still £2.40 on PAYG, same as it was last year. A paper single is £5.50.

 

[Wolfie]

Fair enough, then why would the Treasury accept it?

Based on 30 years of dealing with them they won't...

 

[JonathanH]

Personally I'd just "keep it simple" and reduce the Anytime Day Return fare to something a bit more reasonable.

What is a reasonable Anytime Day Return fare from Winchester to London, a journey of 66 miles from London, served with non-stop peak trains to London in the normal timetable?

What is a reasonable Anytime Day Return fare from Bletchley to London, a journey of 46 miles from London?

 

[Starmill]

Based on 30 years of dealing with them they won't...

The Telegraph article referred to above even specifically says that they have already ruled out any discount of greater than 15%.

I can't quote because as usual it's paywalled:

 

[Bread & cheese]

The Telegraph article referred to above even specifically says that they have already ruled out any discount of greater than 15%.

I can't quote because as usual it's paywalled:

Flexible rail ticket plan to lure back commuters
By Oliver Gill

The Daily Telegraph - Business
16 Apr 2021
New ‘carnet passes’ will allow passengers up to five return journeys a month at 15pc discount to peak fares

MINISTERS and rail chiefs are putting the finishing touches to a new system of flexible rail season tickets designed to entice commuters back to city centres as they split their time between home and the office.

Concerns over costs mean the discounts on offer will be much less generous than for a traditional season ticket, with mandarins attempting to spare the taxpayer from further expense after handing over £10bn in subsidies to keep services running, The Daily Telegraph can reveal. On key routes, it would be cheaper to buy a standard monthly season ticket than travel three days a week using the flexible system.

Under the plan, rail firms will roll out French-style “carnet tickets”, which will allow passengers to complete five return journeys in any single month at a discount of 15pc to peak fares.

A passenger planning to commute for one day a week for a month could buy one of these tickets under the proposals. If a commuter wanted to travel in twice or three times a week, they would buy additional carnets. The scheme will be rolled out in June.

However, it is likely to disappoint some workers planning a flexible future because savings are significantly less than for traditional season tickets.

A traveller doing a two-day-a-week commute would pay only 30pc less than if they bought a five-day, full-month season ticket – even though they would only travel for 10 days a month.

The cost of travelling three days a week on carnet tickets would actually be more expensive than buying a standard monthly season ticket on typical routes. For example, based on a £45.60 standard fare between London and Brighton, each carnet will cost £193.80.

Buying three carnets to travel three days a week over the month would cost £581.40 – considerably more than a monthly ticket that costs £414.40.

Although some operators already offer their own individual carnet-style systems, this would be the first industry-wide scheme as part of an attempt to revolutionise the commute.

Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, confirmed plans to cancel rail franchising last September. The move inverted the privatised model that was introduced by John Major more than a quarter of a century ago. Instead of operators collecting fares, the Government now pays them a fee for running rail services with the proceeds from ticket sales going to the Exchequer.

The switch means that taxpayers, rather than rail operators, are now on the hook for discounted rail fares.

Officials have forecast that the carnet ticket will have no effect on public finances as the cost of the discount is compensated by an associated increase in the number of people that will be encouraged to return to the railways.

A spokesman for the Rail Delivery Group, which represents operators, said: “The pandemic has accelerated the trend towards home working and rail fares need to reflect this so we’re working with the Government to introduce new flexible tickets as soon as possible.

“Wider changes to fares are still urgently needed so that instead of adding extra ticket types for people to choose from, more commuters can benefit from tap-in, tap-out capping and automatically get the best deal at the end of the week or month.”

The roll out of the flexible season tickets is expected to coincide with the Government relaxing its message to work from home, scheduled for June 21.

A spokesman for the Government said: “We are committed to providing a more flexible, modern ticketing system for passengers. That is why we are looking at ways to make this a reality for commuters, including flexible season tickets. We’ll set out further details in due course.”

 

[Starmill]

What is a reasonable Anytime Day Return fare from Winchester to London, a journey of 66 miles from London, served with non-stop peak trains to London in the normal timetable?

Winchester to London Anytime Day Return is already among the most overpriced out there at £76.80. SWR are well aware, too, which is why they only charge £42.10 for a London to Winchester one.

 

[JonathanH]

Winchester to London Anytime Day Return is already among the most overpriced out there at £76.80. SWR are well aware, too, which is why they only charge £42.10 for a London to Winchester one.

That fare differential is simply a function of what British Rail charged. Anyone making a decision to commute from Winchester to London has done so on the basis of that fare structure. I agree that it is a lot of money.

Taking a quote from RDG in the Telegraph article, “Wider changes to fares are still urgently needed so that instead of adding extra ticket types for people to choose from, more commuters can benefit from tap-in, tap-out capping and automatically get the best deal at the end of the week or month.”, while the anytime cost of travelling from Winchester to London at peak times could reduce to say £35 single each way, I suspect that the £42.10 cost of the counter-flow would increase.

 

[Starmill]

That fare differential is simply a function of what British Rail charged. Anyone making a decision to commute from Winchester to London has done so on the basis of that fare structure. I agree that it is a lot of money.

I was merely pointing out that the answer to your implied question is right there. If the price were £42.10 plus a 10% loyalty discount, either in the form of credit, perks or a carnet or whatever, then the price issue highlighted by others would likely be solved. 10% off £76.80 is, of course, pointless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is a reasonable Anytime Day Return fare from Winchester to London, a journey of 66 miles from London, served with non-stop peak trains to London in the normal timetable?

Somewhere around the £45-50 mark based on scaling the below by distance. (Currently 76.80, off peak 41.90, super off peak 37.20).

Northampton (a comparable distance out, and served by trains with 2 stops but capable of 110mph, so it probably evens out) is presently £65.80, FWIW. So £76.80 is definitely too high.

What is a reasonable Anytime Day Return fare from Bletchley to London, a journey of 46 miles from London?

I would say about £30 or thereabouts. It's £42.10 now, so not one of the worst ones. Presently Off Peak (no evening restriction) is £21.30 and Super Off Peak (evening restriction and very wide morning restriction) £16.

 

[JonathanH]

I was merely pointing out that the answer to your implied question is right there. If the price were £42.10 plus a 10% loyalty discount, either in the form of credit, perks or a carnet or whatever, then the price issue highlighted by others would likely be solved. 10% off £76.80 is, of course, pointless.

That's fare enough. My question though was about how you determine what the value of a one-off peak time journey from Winchester to London, given the availability of non-stop trains is. If there wasn't a £42.10 fare in the opposite direction, what would we be saying is the 'right amount'.

Somewhere around the £45-50 mark based on scaling the below by distance. (Currently 76.80, off peak 41.90, super off peak 37.20).

Northampton (a comparable distance out, and served by trains with 2 stops but capable of 110mph, so it probably evens out) is presently £65.80, FWIW. So £76.80 is definitely too high.

I guess it comes back to someone being prepared to pay £76.80 as a distress purchase for that journey but as the journey is made more often, the difference between £76.80 and £65.80 or £45-50 adds up.

There are so many factors which determine an appropriate fare though - journey time, frequency, cost of living, comfort, operational cost, demand, capacity etc. We can say that the fare should be £50. In 10 years, it will be £70-£80 again.

How are you assessing the value of travel? By comparing it to the alternative?

 

[Starmill]

Somewhere around the £45-50 mark based on scaling the below by distance. (Currently 76.80, off peak 41.90, super off peak 37.20).

Cambridge to London which is within 5 miles of approximate distance from London by comparison with Northampton to London and Winchester to London - and actually does cost £45.60. All three had an excellent peak service in 2019 and still have very good services today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How are you assessing the value of travel? By comparing it to the alternative?

Well, given that the default option to travel in the UK for most people is the motor car, then yes, comparing it to the marginal* cost of using that plus parking it is appropriate, yes. Indeed, you could argue that other than for very long journeys where air becomes relevant, that is the only relevant comparison.

* Don't start the "but it costs 45p a mile to run a car" argument; most other costs on a typical mileage are not distance based, and so car ownership is seen by most as a monthly/annual cost to be a "member" of the "car ownership club", so journeys just cost the marginal costs, which are much nearer the lower HMRC rate of 25p/mile. If you choose your car well then quite a lot lower than that, as that figure is necessarily rather towards the higher end.

 

[BRX]

While there's a lot about the rail fares system that needs to be improved, really we also need to be looking at the other side of that car/PT equation and trying to do something about this "marginal cost" issue that factors in to decisions made by car owners. Quite what that solution is, of course, is very tricky. But if you could end up with some kind of road pricing arrangement that was related to travel alternatives, it could deal with this. In other words, a car journey from Winchester to London would be priced in a way that the marginal cost of going by car was a bit higher than the rail fare.

 

[Jurg]

Interesting to see National Express buses in Coventry and West Midlands have introduced an app-based carnet, offering up to 25% off day tickets (£3 in Coventry compared to £4 usual price):

Flexible tickets

Our flexifares are ticket bundles that work around your busy schedule, providing you with up to 13 day tickets per month to use as you wish across our network.

nxbus.co.uk

Need to restart, pause or cancel your bus pass?
For further information please click here.

Flexible tickets​

Convenient ticket bundles that suit you​

• Home
• Tickets & Prices
• Flexible tickets

Flexible ticket bundles​

Working part time or from home can be a challenge when it comes to commuting to work, as not everyone wants to be locked into long term season passes they might not need to use.
Flexifares are a choice of ticket bundles that works around your busy schedule, providing you with up to 13 day tickets per month to use as you wish across our network. You can even roll over any unused tickets to the next month, which is ideal if your work pattern changes each month or if you’re off on holiday.

Flexifares​

Unlimited travel on all our buses in the Coventry area including Bedworth, Kenilworth, Leamington Spa & Meriden. Buy online below or on the mTicket app.

5 day bundle​

£17.50£3.50 per dayBuy

10 day bundle​

£35£3.50 per dayBuy
Tickets must be used within 90 days of purchase
If you're averaging 3 days of travel per week why not subscribe and save even more?

Monthly - 13 day bundle​

£39Subscribe

 

[Haywain]

While there's a lot about the rail fares system that needs to be improved, really we also need to be looking at the other side of that car/PT equation and trying to do something about this "marginal cost" issue that factors in to decisions made by car owners. Quite what that solution is, of course, is very tricky. But if you could end up with some kind of road pricing arrangement that was related to travel alternatives, it could deal with this. In other words, a car journey from Winchester to London would be priced in a way that the marginal cost of going by car was a bit higher than the rail fare.

It's an interesting idea but the marginal costs will vary according to the car, the driver and the reason for travelling. And people think the fares system is complicated now!

 

[island]

Today’s (re)launch of GB Railways suggests the flexible season tickets will be issued valid for 8 trips within 30 days.

Has anyone seen or heard what the pricing is likely to be? To date there have been murmurings of a 10-15% discount against the SDR per day, which isn’t massively encouraging.

 

[Ianno87]

Today’s (re)launch of GB Railways suggests the flexible season tickets will be issued valid for 8 trips within 30 days.

Has anyone seen or heard what the pricing is likely to be? To date there have been murmurings of a 10-15% discount against the SDR per day, which isn’t massively encouraging.

An interesting price comparison would be with a 7 Day Season ticket; essentially a similar number of valid days (one extra), but spread over a longer period of time. If it was excessively more expensive than this, that would be personal psychological price barrer.

 

[Haywain]

flexible season tickets will be issued valid for 8 trips within 30 days.

8 trips in 28 days.

 

[30907]

An interesting price comparison would be with a 7 Day Season ticket; essentially a similar number of valid days (one extra), but spread over a longer period of time. If it was excessively more expensive than this, that would be personal psychological price barrer.

Also being discussed at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ue-neutral-fare-reform-possible.217496/page-3
See eg my post #79 which suggests (as per island here) 10% per day or so against SDR - so fo 8 days it's typically a bit under 2x a weekly.

 

[Watershed]

Today’s (re)launch of GB Railways suggests the flexible season tickets will be issued valid for 8 trips within 30 days.

Has anyone seen or heard what the pricing is likely to be? To date there have been murmurings of a 10-15% discount against the SDR per day, which isn’t massively encouraging.

From the quoted examples, we can get a rough idea:

analysis shows that 2 day-a-week commuters buying multiple new flexible season tickets could save the following in a year when compared to the cost of daily tickets:

• over £250 from Woking to London
• over £200 from York to Leeds
• over £60 from Southampton Central to Winchester
• over £160 from Stafford to Birmingham
• over £220 from Liverpool to Manchester

A Woking-London SDR is £23.50. If we assume they are talking about a 2 day a week commute, for 47 weeks a year, that would cost £2209 a year with SDRs. If the saving is "over £250" (and these figures seem to be rounded to the nearest £10, so let's assume the actual value is on average £255), that would mean a carnet ticket is about 11.5% cheaper per day than an SDR.

For York-Leeds the figures are £19.20, £1804.80 and "over £200", so again about 11.4%.

Southampton-Winchester is £7.90, £742.60 and "over £60", so about 9.0%.

Stafford-Birmingham is £14.60, £1372.40 and "over £160", so about 12.0%.

Liverpool-Manchester is £20.60, £1936.40 and "over £220", so about 11.6%.

From these examples I think we can surmise that the discount will not be exactly the same everywhere, but will be in the region of 9-12%. Which is almost exactly the same as the carnet tickets that SWR and Northern have already introduced.

It's a very modest saving which, frankly, won't really be anywhere near enough to tempt most people back into the office.

Now, if they offered a carnet that was priced the same as a weekly season ticket, but valid for 5 days within a month/forthnight, I think they might actually be onto something. Of course, the Treasury wouldn't possibly entertain such a scheme, for fear of the potential for revenue loss...

 

[Jurg]

I'm awaiting more details of the carnets with some interest, although I suspect it will be a good few months before I will be doing any commuting.

One big question mark for me is on a more practical level, how will the tickets work? Is it an electronic product on an app, or is it paper based? If I need to visit a manned ticket office, as is the case with current carnets available in my area, I don't think it will be something I'll use.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I've posted something similar in the other thread, referred to in #172 but it also seems as relevant here.

I suspect the normal punter is expecting to see a flexible ticket at a price very similar, pro-rata, to what they currently pay for their current annual season ticket, so £x,000 divided by 240 work days per year (480 single journeys as per station usage statistics methodology). Not a modest % off the Anytime Day Return. Can't wait to see the twitter backlash when actual details become available to people.

We may well understand the reasons for offering a massive discount in return for an annual upfront payment, but the punter doesn't care. They want value

 

[akm]

I'm awaiting more details of the carnets with some interest, although I suspect it will be a good few months before I will be doing any commuting.

One big question mark for me is on a more practical level, how will the tickets work? Is it an electronic product on an app, or is it paper based? If I need to visit a manned ticket office, as is the case with current carnets available in my area, I don't think it will be something I'll use.

"The paperless tickets will allow travel on any 8 days in a 28-day period, with passengers able to tap smartcards or scan mobiles at the station, with no need to select the days of travel in advance."

 

[Watershed]

There is more detail available on NRE here.

Flexi seasons will be priced between the SDR and 7DS.

They will be available on smartcard and/or as e-tickets. There will be no CCST option. A day's travel will be activated by touching a smartcard on a reader (at a barrier, validator or ticket machine), or for e-tickets I imagine there will be an in-app option (so printing them off won't really be very practicable).

They will offer unlimited travel, including break of journey, on the date they are activated (and until 04:29am the next morning, as per railway custom).

They will be refundable, subject to at least one day's travel being unused (and the usual £10 admin fee). The refund will be based on the cost of SDRs for the number of days activated.

In case of disruption, passengers will be able to apply for Delay Repay provided they have activated a day's travel.

 

[Jurg]

"The paperless tickets will allow travel on any 8 days in a 28-day period, with passengers able to tap smartcards or scan mobiles at the station, with no need to select the days of travel in advance."

There is more detail available on NRE here.

Flexi seasons will be priced between the SDR and 7DS.

They will be available on smartcard and/or as e-tickets. There will be no CCST option. A day's travel will be activated by touching a smartcard on a reader (at a barrier, validator or ticket machine), or for e-tickets I imagine there will be an in-app option (so printing them off won't really be very practicable).

They will offer unlimited travel, including break of journey, on the date they are activated (and until 04:29am the next morning, as per railway custom).

They will be refundable, subject to at least one day's travel being unused (and the usual £10 admin fee). The refund will be based on the cost of SDRs for the number of days activated.

In case of disruption, passengers will be able to apply for Delay Repay provided they have activated a day's travel.

Cheers both. Good to see break of journey is covered too.

 

[Ianno87]

One interesting item in the 'FAQ' is not offering them (yet) for First Class, which feels like a missed opportunity.

Flexi seasons will be priced between the SDR and 7DS.

If true, that "feels" like very good value. Presuming that it's not referring to the per week cost of the season ticket averaged out... (what I fear the statement might be saying is more expensive than buying a day return, but cheaper than buying a weekly ticket every week)

They will be available on smartcard and/or as e-tickets.

And one will hope there'll be an end to TOC A not having the correct equipment to read TOC B's perfectly valid smartcard.

They will be refundable, subject to at least one day's travel being unused (and the usual £10 admin fee). The refund will be based on the cost of SDRs for the number of days activated.

That is good. Removes the risk of "buying one and then it not being used enough"; at worst you fall back to paying the daily fares.

 

[akm]

This bit:

Can you use a Flexi Season ticket on any operator?​

In most cases you can use any operator between your start and end stations.


If your Flexi Season ticket is only valid on one operator but you wish to travel with a different one then you will need to buy a new ticket for your journey.

Are there any operator-restricted 7DSs ??