Flexible Rail Season Tickets - 2/3 days per week to be introduced by June 2021

[Ianno87]

Realistically, there aren't many business travellers (as opposed to commuters) who would do the same journey regularly enough to take advantage of a carnet/flexi season. Particularly if were an 8 in 28 product - that means a substantial outlay to begin with. So, from that perspective, I see no reason why it couldn't be priced at a similar rate to the season ticket - perhaps 10 or 20% more.

Unless over time you move away from "business travellers" towards more commuters commuting further but less often.

 

[Wallsendmag]

A lot of work to do in the month ahead!! Over-promising; under-delivering ahead?

The work is mostly done, we didn't start this last week

 

[BrianW]

The work is mostly done, we didn't start this last week

That's good to know- thank you.

That delay in reaching Manchester may be because the wrong people were in the right place, and pushed ITSO rather than trying to take Oyster on to work elsewhere.

Sorry if I am on the wrong track here. The impression I had was that 'the authorities' had put paid to shared ticketing- bus/train/tram

 

[Jan Mayen]

Does anyone know when actual prices will be released please?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Does anyone know when actual prices will be released please?

As they're being launched outside the normal fares rounds, I'd assume it'll be 21st June (which is stated as the on sale date), just like the delayed January fares change didn't appear until the start date of 1st March.

 

[JamesT]

That delay in reaching Manchester may be because the wrong people were in the right place, and pushed ITSO rather than trying to take Oyster on to work elsewhere.

Oyster is a dead end technologically. ITSO has been implemented throughout the country for bus passes so seems a better basis to use for a widespread system than trying to impose Oyster on other modes.

 

[35B]

That's good to know- thank you.


Sorry if I am on the wrong track here. The impression I had was that 'the authorities' had put paid to shared ticketing- bus/train/tram

Recently, yes. Historically, DfT pushed ITSO very hard despite the immediate benefits of Oyster.

Oyster is a dead end technologically. ITSO has been implemented throughout the country for bus passes so seems a better basis to use for a widespread system than trying to impose Oyster on other modes.

Now, you’re probably right. But it’s taken a decade to get there, during which the existing system had many advantages but was stopped by DfT’s focus on ITSO.

 

[6Gman]

Why force people to buy the discounted product up front? Carnets are an old solution from the days of paper tickets and clerks manually calculating things.

With modern computing power, the devices to use it on (smartphone or card) and widespread network coverage, there are far more innovative and flexible ways of addressing the perceived issue.

Have a ticket where the price decreases over time as you make more use of it. If you travel once per year, you pay the current peak price. If you travel 200 (or it is 220) days per year, you pay the equivalent of the current season ticket. Each time you make a journey, the price incrementally reduces. If you share the 'ticket' around, so what, it will only come down to the price of a standard season ticket, which can be used multiple times during the day. There needs to be a restriction to prevent it being used by two people at the same time - something along the lines of the Oyster 'passback' along with an 'uncompleted journey'

There was more to this point, but I was automatically logged out and lost the text I had typed.

Something about Ticketer machines recognising the second use of a ticket in quick succession.
Also about the method of incremental discounting being based on current season ticket calculations (13 weeks and then no further reduction?).
The industry deciding, or the customer choosing, a settlement period (up to one year) over which their use would be measured.
Finally could buy credit in advance and be notified when running low, or buy on a daily basis once the commuter knows they are travelling that day.

I note the irony of a post suggesting a technological solution ... being derailed by technology!

 

[lightbulb]

I note the irony of a post suggesting a technological solution ... being derailed by technology!v

I see that BRFares is now showing a test fare of £50 for a season ticket between Luton and London Thameslink, coded "FL1 FOR TEST USE". The validity is stated as being "one journey to be made in 28 days".

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[Paul Kelly]

The validity is stated as being "one journey to be made in 28 days".

The existing fares database doesn't really support this new type of ticket - well it does, but tickets that allow unlimited travel for x days within a longer period of y days are typically rovers, e.g. like the Freedom of North West 4 days in 8: https://www.brfares.com/!rovers?nlc=I120

The new flexible fares seem to be being put into the database as season tickets without the normal min/max validity periods that season tickets have. BRfares.com is going to need some tweaks to show them as they are intended, but I might get to that within the next week.

 

[lightbulb]

The existing fares database doesn't really support this new type of ticket - well it does, but tickets that allow unlimited travel for x days within a longer period of y days are typically rovers, e.g. like the Freedom of North West 4 days in 8: https://www.brfares.com/!rovers?nlc=I120

The new flexible fares seem to be being put into the database as season tickets without the normal min/max validity periods that season tickets have. BRfares.com is going to need some tweaks to show them as they are intended, but I might get to that within the next week.

I take it that the £50.00 fare quoted is just a "placeholder", rather than the actual fare. For comparison, the 7-day season is £113.60, and the SDR £31.50.

 

[Starmill]

A good way to approximate the Flexi Season price would be to take the sum of an Anytime Day Return and one fifth of a Seven Day Season, and divide by two. Obviously that won't work if you can't get those fares inputs, and will need to vary slightly around the country. As others have pointed out there'd be no point in bothering to retail any flexi season if it weren't going to be priced less than an Anytime Day Return so I'd expect to see pragmatic decision there.

 

[Ianno87]

A good way to approximate the Flexi Season price would be to take the sum of an Anytime Day Return and one fifth of a Seven Day Season, and divide by two.

Do you mean that would be the cost per day of a Flexi Season?

 

[island]

How will this work for journeys where the anytime day return (SDR) price differs by direction?

Take for example Strood Kent to London Terminals route not valid on HS1. The SDR is £37.40 from Strood but just £21.60 from London Terminals.

 

[Watershed]

How will this work for journeys where the anytime day return (SDR) price differs by direction?

Take for example Strood Kent to London Terminals route not valid on HS1. The SDR is £37.40 from Strood but just £21.60 from London Terminals.

I think we can be almost certain they'll pick the more expensive SDR!

 

[westv]

Just for curiosity I tried the day return/7 day season ticket formula for my journey - which I last did in March 20.
Unfortunately there was neither a day return ticket or a 7 day ticket price available for the journey.

 

[Haywain]

Unfortunately there was neither a day return ticket or a 7 day ticket price available for the journey.

There may not be a 7 day ticket price but there will be a 7 day rate as that is what a longer period season fare will be based on. However, flexi seasons are not really going to be appropriate for long distance flows because season prices are generally very low in comparison to return fares.

 

[Watershed]

However, flexi seasons are not really going to be appropriate for long distance flows because season prices are generally very low in comparison to return fares.

Another way of viewing that would be to say that long distance Anytime fares are generally exorbitant. Reducing them to a more reasonable level might help to even out loadings a little more, as well as making more reasonable flexi season options available.

 

[Ianno87]

Another way of viewing that would be to say that long distance Anytime fares are generally exorbitant. Reducing them to a more reasonable level might help to even out loadings a little more, as well as making more reasonable flexi season options available.

The alternative to reducing Anytime prices is to manage demand using Advances instead.

 

[island]

There may not be a 7 day ticket price but there will be a 7 day rate as that is what a longer period season fare will be based on. However, flexi seasons are not really going to be appropriate for long distance flows because season prices are generally very low in comparison to return fares.

Not all journeys offer a season ticket rate, see for example Belvedere to Hildenborough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The alternative to reducing Anytime prices is to manage demand using Advances instead.

I can't imagine many commuters (even 2 days a week) being willing to take the faff of Advances, particularly if they don't know when they will return home. The place for Advances (fixed-train) is long-distance journeys. We need to abolish them on anything where actual seat reservations are not offered, not make more of the things.

Edit: ah, you are referring to long-distance, I didn't twigged we'd crossed over. They already are, is the answer to that. Avanti for example offer Advances at a slightly lower price than the Anytime on most peak trains. However, single-fare walk-up pricing* is needed to go with it, as for a long distance business journey near enough everyone knows which train they will take outward, but many don't know the return time.

* Or decent availability of walk up advance purchase on the day, as these can be purchased once the time is known. Or bin the admin fee so you can book a guess and change it whenever.

 

[Haywain]

Not all journeys offer a season ticket rate, see for example Belvedere to Hildenborough.

There is a 7DS for that journey, route NOT HS1 NOT UND, £125.90.

 

[miami]

as for a long distance business journey near enough everyone knows which train they will take outward

If I aim for the 0730 train and there's traffic, or difficulty finding a parking space, or the bus is late, or the taxi gets lost, or I get a puncture on the bike, then I take the train 30/60 minutes later. It's a pain, but not a major issue.

If I have an advanced ticket, I need to build in traffic/space/late/missing into my journey, making the train far far slower for the end to end journey, and in many cases I may as well drive.

Pre covid I took either the 0856, 0925 or 0930 from Crewe to London. The 0856 wasn't an official connection, but it usually worked. An advance denies me that and adds 30 minutes to the journey.

Given that the majority of these "peak" trains - especially the 0925 and 0930, had loading well under 50%, but far more expensive than the next train which was the "off peak" train and invariably full, so I don't buy the "managing demand" excuse for one second.

The railway industry does like to make things complicated. Just sell a ticket to take me from A to B instead of these need for petty control over peoples lives. By all means offer optional reservations on top of that.

 

[island]

There is a 7DS for that journey, route NOT HS1 NOT UND, £125.90.

So there is. It seems to have shown up recently.

 

[Ianno87]

If I aim for the 0730 train and there's traffic, or difficulty finding a parking space, or the bus is late, or the taxi gets lost, or I get a puncture on the bike, then I take the train 30/60 minutes later. It's a pain, but not a major issue.

If I have an advanced ticket, I need to build in traffic/space/late/missing into my journey, making the train far far slower for the end to end journey, and in many cases I may as well drive.

Pre covid I took either the 0856, 0925 or 0930 from Crewe to London. The 0856 wasn't an official connection, but it usually worked. An advance denies me that and adds 30 minutes to the journey.

Given that the majority of these "peak" trains - especially the 0925 and 0930, had loading well under 50%, but far more expensive than the next train which was the "off peak" train and invariably full, so I don't buy the "managing demand" excuse for one second.

The railway industry does like to make things complicated. Just sell a ticket to take me from A to B instead of these need for petty control over peoples lives. By all means offer optional reservations on top of that.

Though if you're travelling for a meeting, you're genetally going to want to allow time anyway to make your booked train, in order to be at the meeting on time. Most peoples' trains are de-facto fixed in the morning anyway.

Nonetheless, pre-Covid morning traffic/buses tends to be pretty predictable and consistent in my experience. I used to regularly go for the 0657 train off Cambridge one every 1-2 weeks, and the 12 minutes connection off my local bus route worked seamlessly every time. The only hairy time was when it got stuck behind a bin lorry in town!

 

[miami]

Though if you're travelling for a meeting, you're genetally going to want to allow time anyway to make your booked train, in order to be at the meeting on time. Most peoples' trains are de-facto fixed in the morning anyway.

I'll want to allow time for the train to be late

Imagine a meeting at 1000 in London, meaning an 0930 arrival at the terminal at the latest. With a 2 hour trip and a 15 minute trip to the station that means an 0730 train and an 0715 departure from home.

So by leaving home at 0645, it means I can catch teh 0700 and arrive at 0900, with time for a coffee and croissant before the meeting

However

If the trip to the station is late, fine, I get the 0730 and skip the coffee
If the trip to the station is on time, but the train is late, fine, I get to the terminal at 0930 and skip the coffee

If I am fixed to the 0730 I have no buffer time for the train being late, and miss the coffee

If I am fixed to the 0700 I have no buffer time for the trip to the station being late

Thus I have to leave at 0615 instead of 0645. All because the rail industry likes to control people.

The only hairy time was when it got stuck behind a bin lorry in town!

Indeed, that's the whole point. Your taxi doesn't turn up, or your bus is stuck behind a lorry, and it's no longer a case of "oh well no coffee", it's "oh well no coffee and a new ticket anyway"

 

[Ianno87]

I'll want to allow time for the train to be late

Imagine a meeting at 1000 in London, meaning an 0930 arrival at the terminal at the latest. With a 2 hour trip and a 15 minute trip to the station that means an 0730 train and an 0715 departure from home.

So by leaving home at 0645, it means I can catch teh 0700 and arrive at 0900, with time for a coffee and croissant before the meeting

However

If the trip to the station is late, fine, I get the 0730 and skip the coffee
If the trip to the station is on time, but the train is late, fine, I get to the terminal at 0930 and skip the coffee

If I am fixed to the 0730 I have no buffer time for the train being late, and miss the coffee

If I am fixed to the 0700 I have no buffer time for the trip to the station being late

Thus I have to leave at 0615 instead of 0645. All because the rail industry likes to control people.



Indeed, that's the whole point. Your taxi doesn't turn up, or your bus is stuck behind a lorry, and it's no longer a case of "oh well no coffee", it's "oh well no coffee and a new ticket anyway"

In which case, continue to pay he premium for the most flexible ticket, then. Most people will have a pretty fixed outward train, and will plan in reasonable allowances to catch it and allow for it being a little late. At most meetings, other attendees will generally understand if there are more significant issues that these allowances aren't sufficient for.

 

[westv]

As I used/will use AP tickets, my time added on "padding" was/will be normally booking a taxi Monday 06:10 for a 10 minute journey to Hull Paragon to get the 06:58 departure
Coming back leaving work at Friday 16:15 in order to get the 17:19 from Kings X.
I know I could probably cut some of that time out but I would hate for anything to go wrong and miss the train.

 

[35B]

I'll want to allow time for the train to be late

Imagine a meeting at 1000 in London, meaning an 0930 arrival at the terminal at the latest. With a 2 hour trip and a 15 minute trip to the station that means an 0730 train and an 0715 departure from home.

So by leaving home at 0645, it means I can catch teh 0700 and arrive at 0900, with time for a coffee and croissant before the meeting

However

If the trip to the station is late, fine, I get the 0730 and skip the coffee
If the trip to the station is on time, but the train is late, fine, I get to the terminal at 0930 and skip the coffee

If I am fixed to the 0730 I have no buffer time for the train being late, and miss the coffee

If I am fixed to the 0700 I have no buffer time for the trip to the station being late

Thus I have to leave at 0615 instead of 0645. All because the rail industry likes to control people.



Indeed, that's the whole point. Your taxi doesn't turn up, or your bus is stuck behind a lorry, and it's no longer a case of "oh well no coffee", it's "oh well no coffee and a new ticket anyway"

I live a 10 minute drive from my station. Missing my train (usually with a season + reservation) messes up my day at the other end of the journey, and also makes my journey less comfortable; those are significant consequences to me. Returning (slowly) to the office, I'll be using AP tickets (£29 return vs. £145.50 return) early on, and living with the risk of delay, building in a few minutes waiting time at the station before the train.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I can't imagine many commuters (even 2 days a week) being willing to take the faff of Advances, particularly if they don't know when they will return home. The place for Advances (fixed-train) is long-distance journeys. We need to abolish them on anything where actual seat reservations are not offered, not make more of the things.

Edit: ah, you are referring to long-distance, I didn't twigged we'd crossed over. They already are, is the answer to that. Avanti for example offer Advances at a slightly lower price than the Anytime on most peak trains. However, single-fare walk-up pricing* is needed to go with it, as for a long distance business journey near enough everyone knows which train they will take outward, but many don't know the return time.

* Or decent availability of walk up advance purchase on the day, as these can be purchased once the time is known. Or bin the admin fee so you can book a guess and change it whenever.

You'd be surprised then