Leeds Station Improvement

[takno]

Well, it looks nice, but I'd rather they'd spent the money on a new platform or a passing loop somewhere, personally.

I suspect they had to redo the roof before it fell down, and there's a reasonable chance you can cover the cost of the floor from negligence claims alone, given how slippy the old one was. I mean aesthetically I don't actually like the look of it much, but you've got to spend a bit of money on your buildings sometimes.

 

[YorksLad12]

The flooring is pretty much done, with only a small section in front of the barriers left to do:

(The photo below shows Leeds station concourse, with its new blue tiled floor)

View attachment 96754

Very nice. Corporate. Bland. But nice, and it needed doing.

Looking at the bit outside Boots that has yet to be done makes me wish they'd done a contrasting stripe around the edges, but I'm just being picky.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect they had to redo the roof before it fell down, and there's a reasonable chance you can cover the cost of the floor from negligence claims alone, given how slippy the old one was. I mean aesthetically I don't actually like the look of it much, but you've got to spend a bit of money on your buildings sometimes.

I can see the roof (although I did like the pine effect of the old one before they sloshed paint all over it) but the floor seems a bit cosmetic.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I can see the roof (although I did like the pine effect of the old one before they sloshed paint all over it) but the floor seems a bit cosmetic.

Can I ask how often you've fallen over on (often wet) inappropriate 'terrazzo'-type flooring at railway stations?

 

[yorksrob]

Can I ask how often you've fallen over on (often wet) inappropriate 'terrazzo'-type flooring at railway stations?

Never.

I sometimes find the tiled floor in the North concourse a bit slippy when its been raining.

Are you suggesting all the terrazzo style floors in London terminals should be replaced as well ?

 

[Iskra]

The taunting of the locals with the blue and white cones is four years too late!

You do realise most Leeds fans don't care about Huddersfield? The only ones that do, live in Huddersfield which is a tiny minority. They'd be more likely to think Sheffield Wednesday. Huddersfield are below Bradford on the Leeds Utd radar, and that's quite a statement.

The floor looks good though

 

[Dr Hoo]

Are you suggesting all the terrazzo style floors in London terminals should be replaced as well ?

Funny you should ask that!

My first encounter with the, err, 'issue' was just after Edinburgh Waverley had been 'done' (back in my Southern Station Manager days). Possibly the 'very first' site. I stepped off the Flying Scotsman from London, looking forward to a nice holiday, took literally my first step off the tarmac platform and onto the shiny new flooring. Unfortunately this coincided with a dollop of pigeon manure and I fell on my back. I observed to my partner and the world at large, "Whose stupid idea was it to have such a slippery surface at a railway station?"

Two ScotRail employees nearby seemed to think that this was most amusing and both of them called out, "Chris Green!" Clearly this wasn't the first incident. However, they evidently had better things to do than get the Accident Book out or even offer assistance.

Not long afterwards CG moved south to set up Network SouthEast and I was horrified to see most London termini go the same way.

I have subsequently suffered comparable accidents at two London stations. (These were not associated with drinking, inappropriate footwear, running, awkward luggage and so forth.) As a regular user of Leeds these days I am mightily relieved to see that the issue is at last being taken seriously.

Paradoxically, having suffered from some back pain for decades, I find that 'ironing board' seats are actually best for my posture and never complain about them.

I hope that you continue to never have a similar mishap, Rob.

 

[yorksrob]

Funny you should ask that!

My first encounter with the, err, 'issue' was just after Edinburgh Waverley had been 'done' (back in my Southern Station Manager days). Possibly the 'very first' site. I stepped off the Flying Scotsman from London, looking forward to a nice holiday, took literally my first step off the tarmac platform and onto the shiny new flooring. Unfortunately this coincided with a dollop of pigeon manure and I fell on my back. I observed to my partner and the world at large, "Whose stupid idea was it to have such a slippery surface at a railway station?"

Two ScotRail employees nearby seemed to think that this was most amusing and both of them called out, "Chris Green!" Clearly this wasn't the first incident. However, they evidently had better things to do than get the Accident Book out or even offer assistance.

Not long afterwards CG moved south to set up Network SouthEast and I was horrified to see most London termini go the same way.

I have subsequently suffered comparable accidents at two London stations. (These were not associated with drinking, inappropriate footwear, running, awkward luggage and so forth.) As a regular user of Leeds these days I am mightily relieved to see that the issue is at last being taken seriously.

Paradoxically, having suffered from some back pain for decades, I find that 'ironing board' seats are actually best for my posture and never complain about them.

I hope that you continue to never have a similar mishap, Rob.

I do slip and slide a bit, but I tend to find trendy outdoor brick paving in the rain more tricky.

 

[_toommm_]

Funny you should ask that!

My first encounter with the, err, 'issue' was just after Edinburgh Waverley had been 'done' (back in my Southern Station Manager days). Possibly the 'very first' site. I stepped off the Flying Scotsman from London, looking forward to a nice holiday, took literally my first step off the tarmac platform and onto the shiny new flooring. Unfortunately this coincided with a dollop of pigeon manure and I fell on my back. I observed to my partner and the world at large, "Whose stupid idea was it to have such a slippery surface at a railway station?"

Two ScotRail employees nearby seemed to think that this was most amusing and both of them called out, "Chris Green!" Clearly this wasn't the first incident. However, they evidently had better things to do than get the Accident Book out or even offer assistance.

Not long afterwards CG moved south to set up Network SouthEast and I was horrified to see most London termini go the same way.

I have subsequently suffered comparable accidents at two London stations. (These were not associated with drinking, inappropriate footwear, running, awkward luggage and so forth.) As a regular user of Leeds these days I am mightily relieved to see that the issue is at last being taken seriously.

Paradoxically, having suffered from some back pain for decades, I find that 'ironing board' seats are actually best for my posture and never complain about them.

I hope that you continue to never have a similar mishap, Rob.

The side concourse where all the shops are is horrific for that at Leeds - I get absolutely no grip in my work shoes.

 

[yorksrob]

The side concourse where all the shops are is horrific for that at Leeds - I get absolutely no grip in my work shoes.

Yes, the tiles are attractive, but I struggle with them in wet weather. The terrazzo seemed to be less slippy in my experience.

 

[johntea]

Be careful in a couple of months when the annual mud festival returns to Leeds!

 

[YorksLad12]

Passed through there today, it certainly looks less busy than it used to, on the southern concourse anyway. Am thinking that the flooring, signage and lack of seating might be the reasons! It'll be lovely when it's finished, as they say.

I notice that Leon has reopened, and has dining space outside (outside being inside). With Sainsbury's boarded up for a few weeks that means the space for people on either side has been reduced, so forget about 2m spacing (or 1m-plus). On the bright side, Leon has reopened

 

[yorksrob]

Passed through there today, it certainly looks less busy than it used to, on the southern concourse anyway. Am thinking that the flooring, signage and lack of seating might be the reasons! It'll be lovely when it's finished, as they say.

I notice that Leon has reopened, and has dining space outside (outside being inside). With Sainsbury's boarded up for a few weeks that means the space for people on either side has been reduced, so forget about 2m spacing (or 1m-plus). On the bright side, Leon has reopened

Sainsburys is boarded up ?

 

[YorksLad12]

Sainsburys is boarded up ?

Post #803 refers:

Sainsbury's on the station is closing for around 2 weeks from the 24th.

But it isn't a flush boarding-over of the shop entrances and window, it extends a metre or so into the ped space. As it happens there's more space on the hotel side for people than on the former platform side thanks to the takeaways, but it's a large-ish shop so it takes out some seating as well.

 

[_toommm_]

Post #803 refers:

But it isn't a flush boarding-over of the shop entrances and window, it extends a metre or so into the ped space. As it happens there's more space on the hotel side for people than on the former platform side thanks to the takeaways, but it's a large-ish shop so it takes out some seating as well.

And just in time for the refurb, Sainsbury’s have updated their meal deals. It’s now £3.50, but includes most sandwiches and drinks, and more snacks.

Well worth it IMO.

 

[Clansman]

I was in Leeds last week, and even as rail demand is below what it was, the station was still rammed and it felt like it was back to pre-covid levels.

Does anyone know how on earth the station is going to cope with the passenger usage in the next 10 years?

I am not familiar with any improvement projects for the station beyond HS2 plans and what's happened with Platform 0, but it feels like it's the number 1 candidate for a grand bulldoze and starting again, because the station feels like it's a constantly evolving patch up job for the next issue that comes along.

Compared to Glasgow Central with similar usage, Leeds just feels like a neverending infrastructural bottlekneck for commuters navigating the station and the rail network alike.

 

[skyhigh]

Post #803 refers:

But it isn't a flush boarding-over of the shop entrances and window, it extends a metre or so into the ped space. As it happens there's more space on the hotel side for people than on the former platform side thanks to the takeaways, but it's a large-ish shop so it takes out some seating as well.

It does seem quite a major refurb going on - all the shelving and fridge units had been stripped out when I went past yesterday.

(Attached image shows large grey hoarding in front of Sainsburys)

 

[Neptune]

I am not familiar with any improvement projects for the station beyond HS2 plans and what's happened with Platform 0, but it feels like it's the number 1 candidate for a grand bulldoze and starting again, because the station feels like it's a constantly evolving patch up job for the next issue that comes along.

The problem was that Leeds 1st at the turn of the century didn’t do enough for the future. All improvements made were needed at the time but in the intervening years uplifts in service have caused no end of capacity issues.

Whilst the west end capacity was increased nothing was done at the east end. Although near impossible to increase it between the station and Neville Hill it is possible further east so hopefully this will eventually be scoped in with TRU.

Platform capacity needs improving further. Platform 0 and the associated track and signal works (still ongoing) solve the west end bay problem but what is really needed is at least one more through platform and the solution oft mooted and certainly looked at in the past by NR is joining platforms 13 & 14 together (some people on another thread would no doubt suggest clogging it up with 10 car voyagers for hours on end).

Just a shame part of the lower floor of City House couldn’t be taken over (rented) to allow them to have built a higher roof over the concourse and create a mezzanine level like Man Pic or Kings Cross. It might have allowed a higher quality of food outlet too rather than the garbage from McDonalds, subway, KFC et al.

 

[YorksLad12]

It does seem quite a major refurb going on - all the shelving and fridge units had been stripped out when I went past yesterday.

(Attached image shows large grey hoarding in front of Sainsburys)

Sainsbury's White Rose has also had a refurb, with new chiller units. It could be a rolling programme of refurbs, but they might also take the opportunity to redesign the internals for the coronavirus era.

The problem was that Leeds 1st at the turn of the century didn’t do enough for the future. All improvements made were needed at the time but in the intervening years uplifts in service have caused no end of capacity issues.

Whilst the west end capacity was increased nothing was done at the east end. Although near impossible to increase it between the station and Neville Hill it is possible further east so hopefully this will eventually be scoped in with TRU.

Platform capacity needs improving further. Platform 0 and the associated track and signal works (still ongoing) solve the west end bay problem but what is really needed is at least one more through platform and the solution oft mooted and certainly looked at in the past by NR is joining platforms 13 & 14 together (some people on another thread would no doubt suggest clogging it up with 10 car voyagers for hours on end).

Just a shame part of the lower floor of City House couldn’t be taken over (rented) to allow them to have built a higher roof over the concourse and create a mezzanine level like Man Pic or Kings Cross. It might have allowed a higher quality of food outlet too rather than the garbage from McDonalds, subway, KFC et al.

Parkinson's General Law says that everything expands to fill the space available to it.

Leeds 1st did the job for the services on offer at the time, but we now have more TPE services, twice as many using P17, half-hourly to London, etc.

If you were planning Leeds 1st in 1995 for service levels in 2015 you might well take over all of the former Wellington platforms, re-jig PP13 to 17 so that there was a dedicated avoiding line through what is now P17 (my least favourite platform at Leeds), widen the throat to eight instead of six and widen the footbridge. Of course, Leeds 1st was scaled for the funds available, which still ran out (hence no southern entrance until it became much harder to fit it in), no dedicated line out for Sheffield services instead of making it share with TPE departures on F.

I did wonder, when I saw the original Masterplan plans six or seven years ago, why they didn't swap the ticket and travel offices with Boots. You could have a dedicated gate out for people who didn't have a ticket, instead of having to issue a ticket that went straight into a gate (just pay up and someone will let you out). First Class access for passengers would be there as well, possibly access to the Network Rail office without having to pass through the gateline. But then I realised that there wouldn't be any passing trade, which is why you pass shops to go buy tickets and then pass other shops to get to your train.

All that said: Leeds is an amalgam of two stations built by competing companies on arches of different heights. The fact it works at all is a minor miracle! A bit of colour wouldn't go amiss through...

 

[Revaulx]

All that said: Leeds is an amalgam of two stations built by competing companies on arches of different heights. The fact it works at all is a minor miracle! A bit of colour wouldn't go amiss through...

Indeed. I’m sure I read somewhere that the LMS and LNER had aspirations in the ‘30s to close Central and rebuild what became City on a more generous scale. In the end the LMS rebuilt “their” concourse and hotel on their own, at massive expense despite the project’s limited scope.

Whatever the current station’s faults, it’s massively better than the abomination bequeathed by the ‘60s rebuild.

 

[yorksrob]

The gents bogs on 12/15 seem to have been shut for an eternity. I wonder when they'll reopen them.

 

[willgreen]

Although near impossible to increase it between the station and Neville Hill it is possible further east so hopefully this will eventually be scoped in with TRU.

IIRC something like only three buildings would need to be demolished for the construction of another two-track viaduct between Leeds and Neville Hill - it's not as severe as Castlefield. Then again the cost and disruption to the railway would be enormous with likely rebuilding of a fair bit of Neville Hill and loops further along the route may provide much of the benefit anyway.

 

[YorksLad12]

IIRC something like only three buildings would need to be demolished for the construction of another two-track viaduct between Leeds and Neville Hill - it's not as severe as Castlefield. Then again the cost and disruption to the railway would be enormous with likely rebuilding of a fair bit of Neville Hill and loops further along the route may provide much of the benefit anyway.

It's two or three buildings and the headstones at the Parish Church* but there's also the need to decant tenants under the arches while the new viaduct is installed and several major roads will need overnight closures. That said, widening the eastern throat to four tracks plus four through Neville Hill (and on to Micklefield) would allow for parallel moves in and out, rather than waiting 3 minutes behind the previous service as now. It would be good/interesting/fun if Network Rail could find the money to fund a report into what would need to be done and how much it would likely cost, then take it to Leeds City Council/WYCA/TfN and ask them if they have that sort of money available

* I am not calling it Leeds Minster.

 

[Ken H]

IIRC something like only three buildings would need to be demolished for the construction of another two-track viaduct between Leeds and Neville Hill - it's not as severe as Castlefield. Then again the cost and disruption to the railway would be enormous with likely rebuilding of a fair bit of Neville Hill and loops further along the route may provide much of the benefit anyway.

It would be very tight between Kirkgate and Lower Briggate*. There is the grade 2 listed White Cloth Hall to consider. Already devastated by the original build, when it stopped being a rectangle and became a triangle. This area has changed from when I was teenage (1970's), when it was derelict buildings, tramps, prostitutes sheltering under the railway bridges and rubbish everywhere, so expect the NIMBY's to be vociferous.
Needs doing tho.
A tunnel underneath would be difficult as there is Lady Beck running under the Duke Street roadway, and an underground station under the current station would be complicated by the river and canal.

* The formation widens from 2 track to 4 track just to the west of call Lane. There is room for 4 tracks over Briggate, but I dont know if to modern clearances.

 

[YorksLad12]

Definitely not a tunnel! How many billions would that cost, given that the approaches on either side are on viaducts? But until someone does a proper plan it's all guesswork on how much four-tracking would cost, however much is needed.

Parish notice: the other surface car park is now open. Only realised when I saw two Northern-liveried people passing each other on the footpath alonside the track for P0, then noticed parked cars. This should mean the multi-storey is open again for the public, although it's fairly empty as I write. Haven't seen anyone trying to get in, reverse, try the other entry, reverse and generally get in the way the way they have done the last two years

Also: someone's abandoned their vehicle on the footpathoutside the multi-storey. I'm impressed it still seems to be intact...

 

[skyhigh]

Parish notice: the other surface car park is now open. Only realised when I saw two Northern-liveried people passing each other on the footpath alonside the track for P0, then noticed parked cars. This should mean the multi-storey is open again for the public, although it's fairly empty as I write. Haven't seen anyone trying to get in, reverse, try the other entry, reverse and generally get in the way the way they have done the last two years

It reopened for public use today, along with the electric car chargepoints in the car park. It always amazed me how many people tried to get in...!

 

[YorksLad12]

Called in at Sainsbury's this morning. It seems much more spacious, but takes up exactly the same space, with the same arrangement of aisles (and everything in the same place, for once). All down to the colour scheme, new flooring, shelving and lighting. There are extra self-service checkout tills (ack) where the sweets used to be, opposite the actual tills. I think they've shortened the aisle nearest the doors slightly. There are now No Entry signs on the sliding door near the tills, although I don't know if they've removed the door sensor on the outside to stop people walking in (which you can easily do when someone is walking out).

They didn't have any Duck & Hoisin wraps, but I still give it full marks. Marks being still closed, I think.

 

[_toommm_]

Called in at Sainsbury's this morning. It seems much more spacious, but takes up exactly the same space, with the same arrangement of aisles (and everything in the same place, for once). All down to the colour scheme, new flooring, shelving and lighting. There are extra self-service checkout tills (ack) where the sweets used to be, opposite the actual tills. I think they've shortened the aisle nearest the doors slightly. There are now No Entry signs on the sliding door near the tills, although I don't know if they've removed the door sensor on the outside to stop people walking in (which you can easily do when someone is walking out).

They didn't have any Duck & Hoisin wraps, but I still give it full marks. Marks being still closed, I think.

I think that Marks is a franchise at the station so it’s up to the franchisee when/if they reopen.

 

[YorksLad12]

Looking again at the car parks... the multi-storey is definitey open to the public now (the yellow sign has gone and even Google thinks it's open). But the top decks are almost empty, and I can't see much going on lower down. In the Before Times it would be full just after 9am on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays until around 6pm. The open air car park off Aire Street (what was 11 to 15 Wellington Street) is closed so you wonder where those people are now.

It's a good indication, I guess, of just how much commuting travel has dropped off post-Covid.

 

[yorksrob]

I noticed at the weekend that the gents bogs on 13/15 are now open again. They don't look much different though.