Where will the last semaphore signals be on the national network?

[Ashley Hill]

IIRC on the original timescale of elimination of former Western Region boxes Tondu was scheduled to close somewhere around 2050!

 

[Western 52]

Pantyffynnon could be a longer term survivor as it controls the Heart of Wales line as well as it's own semaphores. The box is grade 2 listed too, so no hurry to demolish it. I can't see any rush for the SWCC to take control of this line, so maybe semaphores will remain for a while yet.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Pantyffynnon could be a longer term survivor as it controls the Heart of Wales line as well as it's own semaphores. The box is grade 2 listed too, so no hurry to demolish it. I can't see any rush for the SWCC to take control of this line, so maybe semaphores will remain for a while yet.

Perhaps the semaphores will be replaced with colour lights like Tram Inn.

 

[Western 52]

Perhaps the semaphores will be replaced with colour lights like Tram Inn.

Hopfully not, but always possible of course. Technically its still a junction so what they do may depend on what future if any there may be for the GCG branch.

 

[Annetts key]

I was just thinking, and Banbury might be an example of how the installation of new semaphores doesn't necessarily guarantee that they remain for a long time after: new semaphores were installed in 2010, and then six years later (so not immediately, but still not a very long time after on the grand scale of things), in 2016, the area was re-signalled and all of the semaphores were removed. Although obviously it will depend on the priority of re-signalling an area for as to when it will lose its semaphores and a freight-only line, for example, with new semaphores is likely to retain them for longer than a mainline station (like Banbury) which gets them.

-Peter

It also depends on why an item of signalling equipment is being replaced/renewed. It’s not unusual for equipment to be replaced/renewed. Then a bigger resignalling scheme or other scheme to be approved and hence some equipment will have a relatively short lifespan.

For example the Bristol East Junction project will see all the signals on Bristol East Gantry removed, as a new larger gantry is being provided. Various other signalling equipment and point equipment is also affected. The signals (all modern LED type) were only replaced a relatively short time ago and a lot of the point machines are less than ten years old. But new point operating equipment is being provided.

 

[Peter C]

It also depends on why an item of signalling equipment is being replaced/renewed. It’s not unusual for equipment to be replaced/renewed. Then a bigger resignalling scheme or other scheme to be approved and hence some equipment will have a relatively short lifespan.

For example the Bristol East Junction project will see all the signals on Bristol East Gantry removed, as a new larger gantry is being provided. Various other signalling equipment and point equipment is also affected. The signals (all modern LED type) were only replaced a relatively short time ago and a lot of the point machines are less than ten years old. But new point operating equipment is being provided.

I hadn't thought of that - thanks for explaining.

-Peter

 

[Meerkat]

Will there be a point at which the maintenance and training costs of small islands of semaphore/lever frames means otherwise uneconomic upgrades become fairly essential?
If you can work a power box/ROC panel is operating a manual signalbox easy or still a perishable skill set?

 

[Western 52]

Will there be a point at which the maintenance and training costs of small islands of semaphore/lever frames means otherwise uneconomic upgrades become fairly essential?
If you can work a power box/ROC panel is operating a manual signalbox easy or still a perishable skill set?

There's also the dark art of the locking room to consider. How many will be able to maintain this equipment in years to come? It's skilled work.

 

[Gloster]

Will there be a point at which the maintenance and training costs of small islands of semaphore/lever frames means otherwise uneconomic upgrades become fairly essential?
If you can work a power box/ROC panel is operating a manual signalbox easy or still a perishable skill set?

Although it is not a factor that Son of Network Rail is likely to take into account, there is the matter of temperament. Some of those who work in small manual boxes prefer working on their own and do not settle happily into an environment where you are working with lots of people. I believe that BR had a particular problems of this type when they opened London Bridge (?) PSB in the 1970s and I have heard of other occasions where long-serving signalmen have taken redundancy, with or without giving it a try, for this reason. Recollection is that BR allowed signalmen to give it a try, but then be dealt under normal redundancy procedures without any loss if they weren’t happy. I know I didn’t apply for panels on two occasions as I didn’t like the idea of working with others. When I did go into a panel it was because I had other plans, but it was not a success.

 

[Annetts key]

Of more concern is the availability of spares. Especially parts that are harder to manufacture. The training is done in-house by Network Rail for both the signallers and the signalling maintenance staff. And the trainers for this are (normally) drawn from existing Network Rail staff.

But replacement parts are normally made by either the original manufactures, the company that bought/merged with the original company, or another company (e.g. Unipart which bought the National Railways Supplies company, a part of the former BR stores system). When it becomes uneconomic for either Network Rail to buy replacement parts, or uneconomic for the company to produce new parts, then at some stage the railway will have to fit more modern equipment.

And in a mechanical box or ground frame, often it’s the electro-mechanical bits that are difficult to get spares for rather than the pure mechanical parts.

And yes, mechanical signalling does require far more maintenance compared to modern colour light LED signalling controlled by Solid State Interlocking (SSI) computer systems.

 

[vic-rijrode]

I was just thinking, and Banbury might be an example of how the installation of new semaphores doesn't necessarily guarantee that they remain for a long time after: new semaphores were installed in 2010, and then six years later (so not immediately, but still not a very long time after on the grand scale of things), in 2016, the area was re-signalled and all of the semaphores were removed. Although obviously it will depend on the priority of re-signalling an area for as to when it will lose its semaphores and a freight-only line, for example, with new semaphores is likely to retain them for longer than a mainline station (like Banbury) which gets them.

-Peter

The new semaphores installed at Banbury were at the south end of the two down platforms to enable diverted trains from the Oxford/Didcot direction to reverse and head for London via Bicester (and obviously vice versa). This was when the line was closed between Paddington and Didcot for electrification works. These semaphores were new installations i.e. they did not replace older ones. They were never intended to be utilised in the longer term - but installed because they were inexpensive and easily controlled from Banbury South box's spare levers.

 

[Annetts key]

Also as well as the maintenance costs, don’t forget that if one signal box can be upgraded with a inexpensive panel, say a One Control Switch (OCS) panel controlling minimum electrical signalling (MES). This can replace the mechanical and electro-mechanical signalling for this box and any nearby boxes at a relatively low cost. And instead of having to staff a number of signal boxes, now you only have to staff one box in the area. So as well as the savings for maintenance, operations also save money.

This is exactly what happened at Avonmouth near Bristol in 1988 where five mechanical signal boxes were taken out of use, one of which was converted to a OCS panel controlling MES. Link to the ‘yellow’ notice.

 

[Gloster]

I read something a few months ago that there was concern about the supply of the type of wire used to operate semaphore signals. Although I think that this referred to preserved railways, the same problem could affect the national network; I don’t think it was Covid related.

 

[gc4946]

Bridlington still has semaphores despite track rationalisation

 

[MadMac]

Bridlington still has semaphores despite track rationalisation

For now. I believe it’s getting a panel later this year.

 

[Peter C]

The new semaphores installed at Banbury were at the south end of the two down platforms to enable diverted trains from the Oxford/Didcot direction to reverse and head for London via Bicester (and obviously vice versa). This was when the line was closed between Paddington and Didcot for electrification works. These semaphores were new installations i.e. they did not replace older ones. They were never intended to be utilised in the longer term - but installed because they were inexpensive and easily controlled from Banbury South box's spare levers.

I knew the bit about the diversions and the fact that they were new signals, but I didn't know that they weren't designed to be longer-term installations. Thanks

-Peter

 

[Meerkat]

Also as well as the maintenance costs, don’t forget that if one signal box can be upgraded with a inexpensive panel, say a One Control Switch (OCS) panel controlling minimum electrical signalling (MES). This can replace the mechanical and electro-mechanical signalling for this box and any nearby boxes at a relatively low cost. And instead of having to staff a number of signal boxes, now you only have to staff one box in the area. So as well as the savings for maintenance, operations also save money.

This is exactly what happened at Avonmouth near Bristol in 1988 where five mechanical signal boxes were taken out of use, one of which was converted to a OCS panel controlling MES. Link to the ‘yellow’ notice.

Can you explain what OCS and MES are please, and the implications- ie is it decontrolling semaphores, or just a cheaper way of replacing them with colour lights?
thanks.

 

[Mcq]

Well I see that the Sellafield Box is now all women staffed - nice piece here
Sellafield signal box staffed entirely by women - BBC News

 

[Gloster]

I believe that during the war Radstock North A was worked by two signalwomen and I think there may have been others. (Autocorrect is sexist: it is happy with signalmen, but not signalwomen.)

 

[brad465]

Presumably if semaphores are not gone by the time Network Rail (assuming their successor continues this) has completed the integration of all signalling into 12 centres, they will be gone by then.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One nanosecond prior to the heat-death of the universe, there will still be at least one semaphore signal at Shrewsbury!

 

[Llanigraham]

Of more concern is the availability of spares. Especially parts that are harder to manufacture. The training is done in-house by Network Rail for both the signallers and the signalling maintenance staff. And the trainers for this are (normally) drawn from existing Network Rail staff.

But replacement parts are normally made by either the original manufactures, the company that bought/merged with the original company, or another company (e.g. Unipart which bought the National Railways Supplies company, a part of the former BR stores system). When it becomes uneconomic for either Network Rail to buy replacement parts, or uneconomic for the company to produce new parts, then at some stage the railway will have to fit more modern equipment.

And in a mechanical box or ground frame, often it’s the electro-mechanical bits that are difficult to get spares for rather than the pure mechanical parts.

And yes, mechanical signalling does require far more maintenance compared to modern colour light LED signalling controlled by Solid State Interlocking (SSI) computer systems.

When one of our Block Instruments went wrong spares came from the Severn Valley Rlwy.

And I would agree with others, I can see some of the last semaphores being worked by Severn Tunnel Junction Box at least 25 years from now.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A good few years ago, when ROCs were still a new idea, I read an article, probably in Modern Railways, that included a notional timetable of resignalling schemes to allow for the elimination of semaphore signalling from the network. The last two significant areas were expected to be Worcester and Shrewsbury with resignalling of those areas expected sometime after 2045. Of course since then Network Rail has run into many problems on the resignalling front and I gather even the most optimistic forecasts suggest the long-term timescale will have slipped by 10-15 years.

OTOH the need to decarbonise the railway could well lead to electrification reaching both Worcester and Shrewsbury soon enough to force resignalling well before the semaphores are physically worn out. I would guess the last semaphores will be relatively small pockets away from busy urban centres a number of which have been suggested upthread.

As for the training of signallers for traditional boxes Network Rail has been using highly realistic simulators for quite some time. I doubt that continuing this method will cause any problems as the key issue is really the maintenance of protocols rather than equipment at least in the training arena.

 

[godfreycomplex]

With so few locations retaining semaphore signals, it's just a matter of time before the last ones will be replaced. But where will the last ones be?

In the cess. Wocka wocka.

 

[Highlandspring]

Presumably if semaphores are not gone by the time Network Rail (assuming their successor continues this) has completed the integration of all signalling into 12 centres, they will be gone by then.

The original National Operating Strategy (the ROC consolidation plan) is already dead and buried.

 

[Bill57p9]

Ayr - Stranraer?
Girvan to Stranraer is the last mainline use of tablet working and Glenwhilly uses at least one distant semaphore.

 

[bishdunster]

How about Yeovil Pen Mill?

 

[Western 52]

How about Yeovil Pen Mill?

Is there still a signal with a half timber post there? I remember seeing it 30 years ago!

 

[swt_passenger]

The new semaphores installed at Banbury were at the south end of the two down platforms to enable diverted trains from the Oxford/Didcot direction to reverse and head for London via Bicester (and obviously vice versa). This was when the line was closed between Paddington and Didcot for electrification works. These semaphores were new installations i.e. they did not replace older ones. They were never intended to be utilised in the longer term - but installed because they were inexpensive and easily controlled from Banbury South box's spare levers.

Minor detail really, but I believe it was a bit earlier than the electrification work, it was done during 2010 in time for the major blockade in late December that year for the Caversham Road bridge replacement at Reading. IIRC that was required for the station area rebuild and at that stage the electrification decision was still in the future.

 

[GW43125]

Dorking seems to be quietly soldiering on, though does that have any semaphores or is it all colour light these days?