Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable

[DanNCL]

Talking of major works, are there any planned between York and Newcastle over the next few years?

The Darlington station re-build- or is that just out for consultation?

Not just Darlington, a re-build of Northallerton is proposed too, the proposals for Northallerton being to completely demolish the existing station and replace it with a new 4 track alignment, with platforms only on the outer 2 lines, and a flyover just North of the station to allow Middlesbrough trains to cross the ECML without conflicting with southbound services. I'm not sure if either scheme has been approved yet, or if they're just Network Rail ambitions.

 

[BrianW]

Not just Darlington, a re-build of Northallerton is proposed too, the proposals for Northallerton being to completely demolish the existing station and replace it with a new 4 track alignment, with platforms only on the outer 2 lines, and a flyover just North of the station to allow Middlesbrough trains to cross the ECML without conflicting with southbound services. I'm not sure if either scheme has been approved yet, or if they're just Network Rail ambitions.

A cynic might suggest several more government reannouncements yet- to the next election and beyond

 

[Paul Duck]

Having written out Northallerton's proposed services in terms of trains planned to call it is only 1 less a day. For passengers I don't think they will care who is running the train to Newcastle and York as long as its reliable, clean, some where to sit and affordable.
Not looking forward to 2 years of 4 different company returns to Newcastle & York having to be retailed!
We (Northallerton) will have a couple of gaps which will need in filling:

We won't have a train to Newcastle between 0655 & 0855. Biggest gap that needs filling, not bothered which TOC does it, just do it! Haha
No train from Middlesbrough to Thirsk around 0740, 1140 or 1640. Other gaps in trains to Thirsk in filled by GC services.
No arrival from Leeds around 1900 (1800 from Leeds)

Still keeping the LNER London services is good and capacity on these services will be a lot better for Northallerton passengers as they will only come from Newcastle and not Edinburgh. Few stunned faces last 2 days when an Azuma rolled in with only Scotland flags for windows and hundreds of cans of Tennants on each coach.
Saltburn will attract new customers, taking to customers already they are looking forward to a direct train to Saltburn.

The 2240 York To Middlesbrough train on a Saturday night will be fun!

 

[cuccir]

We won't have a train to Newcastle between 0655 & 0855. Biggest gap that needs filling, not bothered which TOC does it, just do it! Haha

Northern are shifting the current 07:22 Saltburn to Newcastle to start at Darlington at 08:14 (and adding an extra Saltburn - Bishop Auckland service in to replace it). Would there be a mechanism for getting that service to start at Northallerton?! It would fill that gap a little.

 

[Watershed]

Northern are shifting the current 07:22 Saltburn to Newcastle to start at Darlington at 08:14 (and adding an extra Saltburn - Bishop Auckland service in to replace it). Would there be a mechanism for getting that service to start at Northallerton?! It would fill that gap a little.

The only Northern drivers who sign south of Darlington are currently a small part of York depot. So they would need to teach, at the very least, Darlington drivers and Middlesbrough conductors the route to make it work. Not to mention getting a path...

I'd class it as very unlikely unfortunately.

 

[swt_passenger]

Having written out Northallerton's proposed services in terms of trains planned to call it is only 1 less a day. For passengers I don't think they will care who is running the train to Newcastle and York as long as its reliable, clean, some where to sit and affordable.
Not looking forward to 2 years of 4 different company returns to Newcastle & York having to be retailed!
We (Northallerton) will have a couple of gaps which will need in filling:

We won't have a train to Newcastle between 0655 & 0855. Biggest gap that needs filling, not bothered which TOC does it, just do it!

That’s a big gap in the present XC service, after a very early train starting at Leeds the standard pattern northbound departures via Leeds from places further south don’t start until after 0800. In the new timetable you’d probably need an 0710 off Leeds, or earlier from Derby. Or stick the call in the northbound service that’s come via Doncaster...

 

[ainsworth74]

That’s a big gap in the present XC service, after a very early train starting at Leeds the standard pattern northbound departures via Leeds from places further south don’t start until after 0800. In the new timetable you’d probably need an 0710 off Leeds, or earlier from Derby. Or stick the call in the northbound service that’s come via Doncaster...

Wonder if there's an argument that the LNERs that leave York at 0704 and 0805 should call at Northallerton to fill that gap? They are Anglo-Scot services which LNER had wanted to cut from Northallerton but but that's a big old gap and LNER do have two services which would be fairly perfectly timed to fill it...

 

[swt_passenger]

Wonder if there's an argument that the LNERs that leave York at 0704 and 0805 should call at Northallerton to fill that gap? They are Anglo-Scot services which LNER had wanted to cut from Northallerton but but that's a big old gap and LNER do have two services which would be fairly perfectly timed to fill it...

Yes, and it’s not as if they (LNER) have abandoned Northallerton all day. Another call or two is all it needs.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, and it’s not as if they (LNER) have abandoned Northallerton all day. Another call or two is all it needs.

I wonder if we've hit upon something might actually be worth saying in response to the consultation? Seems like the sort of local tweak that they were talking about being able to make!

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder if we've hit upon something might actually be worth saying in response to the consultation? Seems like the sort of local tweak that they were talking about being able to make!

It does seem on the face of it to be a gap that should have been spotted by the combined TOCs sooner. Is it possible for TPE to call?

Perhaps someone local might suggest it, I doubt a response from someone in Hampshire will carry a lot of weight…

 

[StokeyBoy]

The other thing that would help is if there were a master timetable rather than ones for each toc so overall level of service can be compared. This would be particularly useful at stations like mine where we gain a route operated by XC in return for losing a TPE one

Presumably someone has the master timetable, but without access to the planned East Coast Trains service it’s hard to comment on the overall service to Edinburgh. Does anyone know where to get it?

 

[InOban]

Campaigners ‘aghast’ that £20m new Reston station in Borders may be served by just eight trains a day

Scotland’s newest station, being built at a cost of £20 million, is likely to be served by only a handful of services a day when it opens next year.

www.scotsman.com

The campaigners have discovered the minimal service to be provided at Reston!

 

[ajrm]

On the contrary the linking of the Aberdeen / Inverness services into the stoppers makes perfect sense. Anyone with a time sensitive end to end journey (indeed anyone travelling the full distance ) is almost certainly going to fly (probably cheaper as well). These trains serve the people going to and from Aberdeen for their two weeks on the oil rigs, and their homes are distributed along the route, certainly not in London

Not sure I'd agree with that generalisation at all. Oil traffic is certainly an important part of the market but you might be surprised at the volume of direct travel to London, particularly from Dundee and Leuchars where your flying choices are from Edinburgh (which is at least an hour away by car and even more by public transport), or Dundee to London City, two flights a weekday (none on a Saturday, one on a Sunday) and rather expensive.

 

[Pacerman99]

I've finished making a set of mock diagrams for the LNER services, and I make it at 4 IC225s required daily (more likely 3 as their diagrams are likely to be more efficient than mine) . The addition of the 1tp2h Bradford services makes it up to 6, which is tight considering they only have 7 Mk4 rakes, so I guess the Bradford services will be paused until the follow on order of Hitachi's arrives. Interestingly, I could not find a way of keeping the Mk4s on the Leeds services without excessive ECS moves or over-utilising of Kings Cross platform space, so I had to put them on a few Newcastle services as well (still making sure those diagrams start/finish at Neville Hill). Fingers crossed that also happens in the real diagrams!

 

[ainsworth74]

Presumably someone has the master timetable, but without access to the planned East Coast Trains service it’s hard to comment on the overall service to Edinburgh. Does anyone know where to get it?

I don't think there's anything official as yet but you can see the current paths (subject to change) on RTT at the moment by looking at somewhere like Edinburgh and applying a TOC filter for 'LD' (which appears to be East Coast Trains). From which you can construct at the likely timetable. For instance here is the services for 16 July 2021 (note that these won't be running as the service isn't expected to start until the autumn/winter but the paths are in the industry system).

Which leads me onto an observation. One of the selling points of East Coast Trains was supposed to be an early arrival from London into Edinburgh. Originally I think they were aiming for pre-10am but so far they best they've got is 1010 arriving into Edinburgh having left Kings Cross at 0545. But I note that LNER from May 2022 are proposing to have an 0630 departure from London arriving into Edinburgh at 1034. Leave London forty-five minutes later (at a vaguely more civlised time!) and arrive only twenty-four minutes later than the East Coast Trains service would have. LNER having a prod at East Coast Trains hoped for market perhaps?

Campaigners ‘aghast’ that £20m new Reston station in Borders may be served by just eight trains a day

Scotland’s newest station, being built at a cost of £20 million, is likely to be served by only a handful of services a day when it opens next year.

www.scotsman.com

The campaigners have discovered the minimal service to be provided at Reston!

I mean 50p says that they were told at the time that something like this was likely so they shouldn't be able to claim surprise. Though I'm not saying that they won't try...

 

[JonathanH]

I note that LNER from May 2022 are proposing to have an 0630 departure from London arriving into Edinburgh at 1034. Leave London forty-five minutes later (at a vaguely more civlised time!) and arrive only twenty-four minutes later than the East Coast Trains service would have. LNER having a prod at East Coast Trains hoped for market perhaps?

The East Coast Trains may well move in the timetable as well from May 2022 but they obviously don't need to consult.

 

[ainsworth74]

The East Coast Trains may well move in the timetable as well from May 2022 but they obviously don't need to consult.

Indeed hence my "current paths (subject to change)" comment I've already found one conflict as there is currently a planned 0614 ECT service from Edinburgh and LNER have a proposed 0614 as well from May 2022!

 

[Glenn1969]

Believe in the timetable consultation it says open access will operate but at different times. I live on a GC route so it would be good to know what these times are

 

[TheBigD]

Which leads me onto an observation. One of the selling points of East Coast Trains was supposed to be an early arrival from London into Edinburgh. Originally I think they were aiming for pre-10am but so far they best they've got is 1010 arriving into Edinburgh having left Kings Cross at 0545. But I note that LNER from May 2022 are proposing to have an 0630 departure from London arriving into Edinburgh at 1034. Leave London forty-five minutes later (at a vaguely more civlised time!) and arrive only twenty-four minutes later than the East Coast Trains service would have. LNER having a prod at East Coast Trains hoped for market perhaps?

LNER are also proposing an 0548 departure from Kings Cross to Aberdeen, arriving Edinburgh 1025. Though for the sake of 10 minutes most people would take the extra 40 minutes in bed!

 

[ainsworth74]

LNER are also proposing an 0548 departure from Kings Cross to Aberdeen, arriving Edinburgh 1025. Though for the sake of 10 minutes most people would take the extra 40 minutes in bed!

Indeed, I discounted that one on that basis though I suppose if it's considerably cheaper than the 0630 it may still appeal!

 

[StokeyBoy]

I don't think there's anything official as yet but you can see the current paths (subject to change) on RTT at the moment by looking at somewhere like Edinburgh and applying a TOC filter for 'LD' (which appears to be East Coast Trains). From which you can construct at the likely timetable. For instance here is the services for 16 July 2021 (note that these won't be running as the service isn't expected to start until the autumn/winter but the paths are in the industry system).

Which leads me onto an observation. One of the selling points of East Coast Trains was supposed to be an early arrival from London into Edinburgh. Originally I think they were aiming for pre-10am but so far they best they've got is 1010 arriving into Edinburgh having left Kings Cross at 0545. But I note that LNER from May 2022 are proposing to have an 0630 departure from London arriving into Edinburgh at 1034. Leave London forty-five minutes later (at a vaguely more civlised time!) and arrive only twenty-four minutes later than the East Coast Trains service would have. LNER having a prod at East Coast Trains hoped for market perhaps?



I mean 50p says that they were told at the time that something like this was likely so they shouldn't be able to claim surprise. Though I'm not saying that they won't try...

Thanks - that gives me an idea of the planned initial service, which is not as good as hoped ( up to 5 hours for Edinburgh - London with only three stops). They will certainly be looking for better and presumably will have to get it to keep out of the way of LNER and others. So how they fit in to the new pattern does have an impact on how I for one want to respond to the overall consultation.

 

[James90012]

The First East Coast original offer was to have an arrival in Edinburgh before 10am which would be possible if they still have a 05.45 but one that is sped up and arrives c.09.45

 

[StokeyBoy]

The First East Coast original offer was to have an arrival in Edinburgh before 10am which would be possible if they still have a 05.45 but one that is sped up and arrives c.09.45

Indeed, and it would be good if the 1958 (or similar) got into London just after midnight rather than just after 1 !

 

[cambsy]

Why do the 2 stop London-Edinburgh services, have varying journey times, and not standard times, some take up to 4hrs 18 mins, and why the Inverness and Aberdeen become semi fast between London-Edinburgh?

Will these timings and calling points be ironed out in the final timetable? I think overall the proposed 2022 timetable looks good to me, and look forward to doing the 2 stop London-Edinburgh services.

 

[Watershed]

Indeed, and it would be good if the 1958 (or similar) got into London just after midnight rather than just after 1 !

Never going to happen - the schedule will be based on having to divert via Hertford North for the usual cyclical late night engineering works.

 

[StokeyBoy]

Never going to happen - the schedule will be based on having to divert via Hertford North for the usual cyclical late night engineering works.

In the consultation timetable the last couple of Southbound LNEr services have about 15 minutes added for that reason. Their last one does Edinburgh to London is scheduled for 5 hours 19 minutes with 11 intermediate stops. Is 4 hrs 30 not plausible for the train ahead making only three stops? The preceding LNER service is due in at 00.35 so I’d expect the EC train to be right on its tail.
I hope you can see why the absence of firm information on the EC slots makes it difficult to assess at least this part of the service pattern.

 

[TheSims]

It's been said before here but as someone who uses the Aberdeen to London services frequently and interchangeably with air (pre-covid), making it a semi-fast will just make me choose to fly more often. The time benefit on a direct to central London train vs to a London airport (Heathrow or City comes to mind) is somewhat minimal for someone who uses the service from Fife and I'm sure will be the same for those in Aberdeen. Looks as though the extra stops may add at most 30 mins to the journey which doesn't seem like much but when travel times are already 5h+ it doesn't help.

Not sure the number of people who end up backtracking up the line at Kings X or changing at York but I'd assume it isn't a big as the London market. Of course once HS2 becomes operational this service would make sense as most London bound passengers will change for a HS service at Edinburgh but that won't be for many years after this timetable change.

Not sure if I'm just a minority opinion on this issue though but people usually don't take well to services being slowed down.

 

[30907]

It's been said before here but as someone who uses the Aberdeen to London services frequently and interchangeably with air (pre-covid), making it a semi-fast will just make me choose to fly more often. The time benefit on a direct to central London train vs to a London airport (Heathrow or City comes to mind) is somewhat minimal for someone who uses the service from Fife and I'm sure will be the same for those in Aberdeen. Looks as though the extra stops may add at most 30 mins to the journey which doesn't seem like much but when travel times are already 5h+ it doesn't help.

The draft timetable gives journey times a couple of minutes quicker than now.

 

[waverley47]

The draft timetable gives journey times a couple of minutes quicker than now.

Indeed. One thing that seems to have been missed, is that this timetable change is definitley happening. The azumas have been rolled out, kings cross done and werrington finished. By the time this timetable is implemented, ECTS rollout should be in the final planning stages, and improvements elsewhere mean hour EY times will change.

While a number of journeys will at first appear to be slower in the new timetable, they're actually getting sped up along with more stops. Journey times across the board are coming down to take advantage of greater acceleration, so we shall see a better timetable in all.

Losses aside, this timetable has been a long time coming. It was first mooted to take place (back when the IET contract was let) in the autumn of 2019, so three years later, we shall see the benefits of a decade of gradual improvements along the ECML.

 

[ajrm]

The draft timetable gives journey times a couple of minutes quicker than now.

On some northbound journeys. However all the southbound trains from Aberdeen are 10+ minutes longer (go figure).