Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable

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Killingworth

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Mod Note: It appears that there are currently four separate consultations underway between CrossCountry, LNER, Transpennine Express, Northern and Great Northern/Thameslink relating to the May 2022 timetable change and their ECML services. Links to all four are below and some documents have been attached for posterity (but note not all available documents have been attached). For the time being we would ask that members use this thread for their thoughts and comments on the various consultations as there is clearly going to be overlap due the winners and losers. We may split out some posts if a significant sub-discussion develops and would ask members to use the report function if they spot one to help us manage what could be quite a lengthy and complicated thread.

Note that also there is the Speculative Ideas sub-forum for anyone who wishes to discuss "my idea for..." type suggestions rather than what is proposed within the consultation documents. Please try, as much as possible, to stick to what has actually be proposed in this thread. Thanks! :)


LNER - https://lner.citizenspace.com/

Significant changes are planned for LNER's timetable from May 2022, building on over a decade of planning and investment including in our new Azuma trains and Network Rail's modernisation of the East Coast's tracks.
There will be 39 more LNER services each weekday and many more at the weekend too, with up to 17,000 extra seats per day between London, the East Midlands, the North of England and Scotland. There will be faster journeys to key destinations and changed stopping patterns.


We want to understand your views on our proposed timetable. We are consulting from 11 June to 5 August 2021.

You can read a summary of the changes for each station and give your views online through our consultation survey. You can also read the full consultation document as well as the proposed new timetable.

Northern - https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/eastcoast22

The new timetable will deliver the benefits of over a decade of planning and investment in the East Coast Main Line. Upgraded infrastructure and new train fleets across the route will mean better journeys for some passengers between London King’s Cross, the East of England, the North of England and Scotland – supporting the economy and helping to protect the environment – although the industry does recognise that some passengers will see service levels and connectivity reduced as a result of this timetable.

The timetable follows a detailed forecast of rail capacity on the East Coast following the East Coast Upgrade, and is based on a subsequent decision by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) in 2016 about how that capacity can be used.

Realising the benefits to long distance connectivity on the East Coast inevitably involves some changes to some existing local and regional services. This means that the timetable does involve a series of trade-offs which the industry is seeking views on. You can read more about these and the approach the industry has taken to developing the timetable here. We know a large proportion of passengers rely on our regional and commuter services, so want to make sure you have your say on how you could be affected.

The timetable is based on a series of decisions about investment in infrastructure and train fleets, as well as access decisions made by the ORR. This means that the structure of the timetable for May 2022 is fixed.

It may be possible to make some local adjustments based on the feedback received, with any wider comments about the balance of services considered for future timetable iterations. The aim is to have train plans in place by early Autumn to deliver the new timetable from May next year.

Affected routes North East

Affected routes East

CrossCountry - https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/travel-updates-information/consultation-may-2022

Welcome to the official consultation on CrossCountry’s May 2022 timetable.​

We are working in collaboration with industry partners to develop draft proposals to deliver benefits capturing over a decade of investments and improvements to the East Coast Main Line’s infrastructure. Along with other train operators we are now consulting on theses proposed changes.

We would welcome your thoughts to our consultation document which can be accessed using the link below.

East Coast Main Line Timetable May 2022 [PDF]

Please submit any feedback through the email address xcconsultations@crosscountrytrains.co.uk by Thursday 5 August 2021.

Transpennine Express - From May 2022 is now on their website at; https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/about-us/our-plan/east-coast-mainline-consultation

We invite you to provide a response to the timetable proposed that TransPennine Express operates on the East Coast Main Line at the May 2022 timetable change. The downloadable files that are part of this consultation are:
As the planned May 2022 timetable is based on the timetable that was in place at December 2019, we have included that timetable for comparison purposes. Any additional documents that form this consultation will be uploaded to this page.

As the planned timetable affects stations on our core North TransPennine route (Liverpool – Manchester – Leeds – York – Hull – Scarborough – Redcar Central – Newcastle – Edinburgh) we have also included all stations on our North route in the May 2022 timetable for downloading rather than only those on the East Coast Main Line.

TransPennine Express will issue a strategic discussion document later this summer on potential service amendments and improvements for consideration at the May 2023 timetable change and also expects to issue a consultation on service changes required as part of the Manchester Rail Task Force process.

A document that summarises all responses received as part of this consultation will be published during August 2021. If you would prefer that your response was non-attributed in that report, please let us know.

If you have any queries regarding this consultation or would like a meeting to discuss it further, please contract Graham Meiklejohn, TransPennine Express Regional Development Manager, on graham.k.meiklejohn@tpexpress.co.uk

Please submit your response by:
  • E-mail to: graham.k.meiklejohn@tpexpress.co.uk
  • Post to: Graham Meiklejohn, Regional Development Manager, TransPennine Express, 7th Floor, Bridgewater House, 60 Whitworth Street, Manchester, M1 6LT
The closing date for all consultation responses to be received by is 2359 on 05 August 2021.

Great Northern/Thameslink - https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/timetableconsultation

As part of our continued promise to deliver the best service to you, we’ve put together a proposal on a series of changes to train services on the Thameslink & Great Northern routes from May 2022.

From Friday 11 June 2021 to Thursday 5 August 2021 this consultation is open for you to share your thoughts on the proposal ensuring we meet your needs.

Every piece of feedback will be considered and we thank you for taking the time to have your say.
 

Attachments

  • ECML May 22 consultation document FINAL 1845 100621 new.pdf
    284.5 KB · Views: 104
  • TPE North route East bound timetable May 2022.pdf
    193 KB · Views: 54
  • TPE North route West bound timetable May 2022.pdf
    191.6 KB · Views: 38
  • TPE North route timetable at December 2019.pdf
    727.2 KB · Views: 34
  • may-22-east-coast-main-line-timetable-crosscountry-consultation-11621-final-v2.pdf
    4.4 MB · Views: 108
  • Consultation_timetable_A4_Web.pdf
    1.7 MB · Views: 63
  • LNER May 2022 Timetable Change Consultation Document FINAL VERSION V4-min-min.pdf
    4.6 MB · Views: 132
  • Northern Timetables-min.pdf
    1.6 MB · Views: 51
  • CI_GNTL_ East Coast Timetable Consultation.pdf
    2.5 MB · Views: 46
  • GNTL Timetables-min.pdf
    2.1 MB · Views: 47
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Bletchleyite

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Thanks - it confirms that TPE are consulting on just 1tph of TPE north of York (plus 1tph to Saltburn), with Manchester Airport to Newcastle cut back to run Manchester Victoria to York and the remaining 1tph being Liverpool to Newcastle.

XC run Plymouth to Edinburgh and Reading to Newcastle.

LNER get 3tph north of York - two Scotland, one Newcastle.

Probably should have its own thread as this seems to contain the full description of the May 2022 service on the whole length of the ECML.

This is all very sensible, but what I wonder is their aim with these hefty cuts - getting rid of Mk5s or 185s perhaps? Would be great if it was for simple resilience, but the railway rarely does that.
 

waverley47

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Summary for those who can't read the pdf for any reason.

1tph LNER fast to Edinburgh, calling York and Newcastle
1tph LNER semi-fast, calling at most intermediate stops
1tph LNER Newcastle semi-fast

TPE to Edinburgh withdrawn back to Newcastle
TPE Manchester Airport to Newcastle trimmed back to York to Man Vic

No immediate changes to XC

1tpd LNER to Sunderland withdrawn
Dunbar loses most intercity stops, will still pick up some from XC and 1tpd from LNER
New Reston stations served 4tpd each way on XC, although this may evolve further

No changes to Northern local services in North East, still 1tph to Morpeth

Newcastle loses half its service to Manchester
Edinburgh loses 2/3 of its service to Manchester (vs pre-Covid) and 1/2 it's service to Leeds

Appears to be banking on ever increasing growth in passengers to London, but less growth in journeys between northern towns, although we shall see.
 
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Killingworth

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Part of it will be to allow 5 paths per day for First East Coast Trains Ltd (new open access operator) which will be electric throughout.

Lots will change in 2023, and in 12 months time we'll have a better idea of how traffic flows are setling down. Needs will probably have changed.
 

swt_passenger

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This is all very sensible, but what I wonder is their aim with these hefty cuts - getting rid of Mk5s or 185s perhaps? Would be great if it was for simple resilience, but the railway rarely does that.
Odd that a report apparently about TPE goes into detail about such unrelated topics as how to provide a service at Reston…

They even use the document to surreptitiously announce 2 tph Thameslink Welwyn GC to Sevenoaks From next May…
 
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waverley47

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This is all very sensible, but what I wonder is their aim with these hefty cuts - getting rid of Mk5s or 185s perhaps? Would be great if it was for simple resilience, but the railway rarely does that.

I get the sense they're after binning the Mk5 sets, although that again remains to be seen.

I'm not sure how I feel about banking on London rather than northern passengers, seems a little short sighted.

The final split of the LNER Newcastle and Edinburgh semi-fasts from the Edinburgh fast is good, and has been in the pipeline for years.
 

Ianno87

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This is all very sensible, but what I wonder is their aim with these hefty cuts - getting rid of Mk5s or 185s perhaps? Would be great if it was for simple resilience, but the railway rarely does that.

At a guess, saving money from the DfT bottom line, by avoiding duplication of services north of York.

Or, simply, it doesn't all fit in the timetable.
 
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JRT

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Looking like Ordsall Curve down to 1tph. Wonder if NORTHERN will be running any trains that way?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Does any of this mean the power upgrade north of Newcastle is not required?
Liverpool-Manchester-Newcastle-Edinburgh only ran for a short period - 18 months? - before being reduced/truncated.
It's not really a 2/3 reduction in Edinburgh services, as there are longer-established WCML options.
It soon won't matter who you travel with, anyway.
In fact it's surprising this kind of thing is happening with the upcoming GBR changes.
 

swt_passenger

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Does any of this mean the power upgrade north of Newcastle is not required?
Liverpool-Manchester-Newcastle-Edinburgh only ran for a short period - 18 months? - before being reduced/truncated.
It's not really a 2/3 reduction in Edinburgh services, as there are longer-established WCML options.
It soon won't matter who you travel with, anyway.
In fact it's surprising this kind of thing is happening with the upcoming GBR changes.
I think the power upgrade would be required for LNER and First anyway, and also for the potential Edinburgh to Berwick service, assuming Scotrail would use an EMU?

I also think you can see why they’d say a 2/3 reduction, as the TPE WCML service alternates with Glasgow, but the ECML was going to be every hour.
 
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notlob.divad

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Can anyone explain how the first train of Liverpool (0506) 9E05 will travel via the CLC and call at Manchester Victoria at 0558? Will this reverse at Oxford Road, without actually having a passenger stop there?
 

Watershed

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Part of it will be to allow 5 paths per day for First East Coast Trains Ltd (new open access operator) which will be electric throughout.
Their 5 trains a day are already in the timetable; the Liverpool-Edinburgh curtailment is not linked to this.

Odd that a report apparently about TPE goes into detail about such unrelated topics as how to provide a service at Reston…
Not so odd when you join the dots. You wouldn't bother opening a station for the sake of 4 trains a day.

I get the sense they're after binning the Mk5 sets, although that again remains to be seen.
There are certainly some interesting changes in the pipeline. I don't think any of them will involve binning the coaches.

I'm not sure how I feel about banking on London rather than northern passengers, seems a little short sighted.

The final split of the LNER Newcastle and Edinburgh semi-fasts from the Edinburgh fast is good, and has been in the pipeline for years.
Basically it's shafting Edinburgh and Newcastle's connections with Leeds and west thereof, for the sake of an extra London service. So the split of services from Newcastle will be 3tph (plus 5tpd) to London, 2tph to Birmingham and 1tph to Liverpool.

It'll be interesting to see the Government try and label that as levelling up and creating a Northern Powerhouse!

Does any of this mean the power upgrade north of Newcastle is not required?
No; the timetable is designed to work with the power supply as it currently exists but there will be more use of electric mode as upgrades are completed.
 

RailWonderer

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TPE can't run 1 tph north of York, unless that excludes the Scarborough shuttle, since that branches off as soon as it leaves York. The Redcar will have to start at Northallerton to avoid using the ECML?
This does mean TPE can focus on providing commuter and regional services that focus on the Pennines, now their sole IC route will be the Anglo Scots.
 

Darandio

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TPE can't run 1 tph north of York, unless that excludes the Scarborough shuttle, since that branches off as soon as it leaves York. The Redcar will have to start at Northallerton to avoid using the ECML?
This does mean TPE can focus on providing commuter and regional services that focus on the Pennines, now their sole IC route will be the Anglo Scots.

Where does it state anything needs to avoid the ECML?
 

swt_passenger

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TPE can't run 1 tph north of York, unless that excludes the Scarborough shuttle, since that branches off as soon as it leaves York. The Redcar will have to start at Northallerton to avoid using the ECML?
This does mean TPE can focus on providing commuter and regional services that focus on the Pennines, now their sole IC route will be the Anglo Scots.
I think in context they’re just saying “can only run one of the existing Newcastle services north of York”. Clearly the Middlesbrough/Saltburn and Scarborough services are being considered separately.
 

JonathanH

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TPE can't run 1 tph north of York, unless that excludes the Scarborough shuttle, since that branches off as soon as it leaves York. The Redcar will have to start at Northallerton to avoid using the ECML?
This does mean TPE can focus on providing commuter and regional services that focus on the Pennines, now their sole IC route will be the Anglo Scots.
The Redcar continues to run to Manchester Airport, but goes to Saltburn and some Northallerton calls are dropped southbound.
 
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southern442

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Pardon my ignorance but why is there no capacity for TPE extensions to Edinburgh every hour? From what I saw it looks as though there is a net reduction in services north of Newcastle compared to now, there isn't anything new added, is the current timetable just too unreliable, or is there another reason?
 

RailWonderer

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Despite some ambiguous wording I think these improvements are positive. TPE didn't need to operate both tph to Newcastle anyway, The First East Coast is better off with those paths, although the small increase in TPE journey time with longer layovers at York aren't an improvement at all.
Overall TPE is running a more limited frequency, limited call service as far as IC is concerned.
I think Scotrail should extend the 1tp2h Edinburgh Dunbar to Reston and leave TPE and XC out of it.
 

tommy2215

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I think this consultation is an own goal for the Government in the North. It will give yet more ammunition to people like Andy Burnham who say its London who gets all the Government's attention (since there will be a net reduction in Newcastle-Manchester yet a net increase regarding Newcastle-London)
 

RailWonderer

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I think this consultation is an own goal for the Government in the North. It will give yet more ammunition to people like Andy Burnham who say its London who gets all the Government's attention (since there will be a net reduction in Newcastle-Manchester yet a net increase regarding Newcastle-London)
The government can easily say 'it's demand driven'.
 

SuperNova

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Part of it will be to allow 5 paths per day for First East Coast Trains Ltd (new open access operator) which will be electric throughout.
Those services would have been running with or without this consultation - ECTL was due to begin later this year, before this consultation comes into force. TPE are losing the paths solely to benefit LNER with some not so good outcomes for stations (Morpeth, Northallerton etc) on the ECML and losing inter-connectivity in the North of England.
The government can easily say 'it's demand driven'.
It's not demand driven, this was going to happen with or without Covid.
 

swt_passenger

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Pardon my ignorance but why is there no capacity for TPE extensions to Edinburgh every hour? From what I saw it looks as though there is a net reduction in services north of Newcastle compared to now, there isn't anything new added, is the current timetable just too unreliable, or is there another reason?
North of York LNER will have 2 trains as far as Edinburgh and a 3rd Newcastle terminator, and there’s also 5 new First open access per day. There’s also space for a 2 hourly extension of an LNER York service to Middlesbrough.
 

yorksrob

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I think it's a poor idea personally.

Quite apart from giving north of Northallerton an overreliance on LNER (which frankly has been found wanting) is there any evidence that Newcastle residents would rather swap their link to WYorks/Lancashire for a third train to London ?

This bears all the hallmarks of making the railway convenient for the DfT rather than passengers.
 

RailWonderer

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Those services would have been running with or without this consultation - ECTL was due to begin later this year, before this consultation comes into force. TPE are losing the paths solely to benefit LNER with some not so good outcomes for stations (Morpeth, Northallerton etc) on the ECML and losing inter-connectivity in the North of England.

It's not demand driven, this was going to happen with or without Covid.
Exactly what I meant. Demand to Newcastle and Edinburgh to and from London has always been far higher than demand from those cities to Leeds and Manchester and the proportion of services has not reflected that until now.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think it's a poor idea personally.

Quite apart from giving north of Northallerton an overreliance on LNER (which frankly has been found wanting) is there any evidence that Newcastle residents would rather swap their link to WYorks/Lancashire for a third train to London ?

This bears all the hallmarks of making the railway convenient for the DfT rather than passengers.

Yeah, it's not what I would do, though I would stop running past Newcastle to Edinburgh.
 

SuperNova

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Exactly what I meant. Demand to Newcastle and Edinburgh to and from London has always been far higher than demand from those cities to Leeds and Manchester and the proportion of services has not reflected that until now.
And what about intermediate stations that are now worse off? It's not really about Edinburgh (and remember TPE need to retain knowledge as they need access to Craigentinny so will still be running on the ECML north of Newcastle), it's about these stations...Morpeth? Northallerton? Darlington? Shall we forget these places just to accommodate another London-Edinburgh service. All are severely impacted.

Pretty shocking from the DfT.
 
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