Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable

[Watershed]

Pardon my ignorance but why is there no capacity for TPE extensions to Edinburgh every hour? From what I saw it looks as though there is a net reduction in services north of Newcastle compared to now, there isn't anything new added, is the current timetable just too unreliable, or is there another reason?

Essentially it comes down to how the paths fall - this isn't a blank-sheet recast as the TPE and XC services still have to run to their existing paths (more or less) once off the ECML - and how the electrical supply constraints work into that.

I think Scotrail should extend the 1tp2h Edinburgh Dunbar to Reston and leave TPE and XC out of it.

For several reasons, that is unlikely to happen.

On the positive side, this is the 'worst' it's likely to get, and it is still an increase compared to today's timetable, even if it is less than December 2019.

 

[Purple Orange]

Wrong decision regarding TPE in my opinion. Improving connectivity across the northern cities has been reduced in favour of more London bound services and giving preference to smaller, more polluting Voyagers over larger, cleaner IETs. This is simply too London centric. The Tories - levelling down since 1834.

 

[Ianno87]

Interestingly, XC propose to revert the evening peak Newcastle-Reading service each way (that currently goes via Leeds as a peak extra), back to via Doncaster as per the standard hour (ostenisbly due to a lack of path through Leeds).

Quite apart from giving north of Northallerton an overreliance on LNER (which frankly has been found wanting) is there any evidence that Newcastle residents would rather swap their link to WYorks/Lancashire for a third train to London ?

Probably the respective fares revenue from each flow is the evidence.

 

[ainsworth74]

LNER are withdrawing their Sunderland service citing: "low passenger numbers since it was introduced by Virgin Trains East Coast" and "Sunderland continuing to have good connectivity with LNER services via Northern Trains and the Tyne and Wear Metro, as well as direct London services operated by Grand Central".

 

[YorksLad12]

Odd that a report apparently about TPE goes into detail about such unrelated topics as how to provide a service at Reston…

They even use the document to surreptitiously announce 2 tph Thameslink Welwyn GC to Sevenoaks From next May…

And the 2tph Leeds-Harrogate York service, which is currently only hourly (the other one terminating at Knaresborough).

There is a cross country sheet as well with the same sort of information in a different view: https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/travel-updates-information/consultation-may-2022

One thing I note is that there is no mention of the existing Leeds to Aberdeen LNER service. Other once a day ones are described, wonder if other operators will shortly show their timetables?

Just checked the draft timetable that they offered - it's not shown. There is a service from London in roughly the same slot though, once it arrives at York.

First thoughts. TPE is broadly going back to pre-2018 levels, but with more seats thanks to the 802s and Mk5a stock. 1tph Leeds-Huddersfield-Airport is about right, in that case.

Disappointed that we aren't getting our faster LNER services to London from Leeds, calling at Wakefield and Donaster or Peterborough only; and the extra train per two hours to Harrogate, avoiding Wakefield. But we do now have, after decades of conspicuous absence, a train at 2240 from KX to fill the two-hour gap in the evening between the former 2133 and 2333 departures to Leeds. And, departures from Leeds to KX or from KX to Leeds are generally at xx10 and xx40, whichever direction you're going.

 

[Purple Orange]

LNER are withdrawing their Sunderland service citing: "low passenger numbers since it was introduced by Virgin Trains East Coast" and "Sunderland continuing to have good connectivity with LNER services via Northern Trains and the Tyne and Wear Metro, as well as direct London services operated by Grand Central".

That is probably the most sensible thing of the whole lot.

 

[Ianno87]

All Anglo-Scots departures from King's Cross switch around; the "Fast" (non-stop York) is now xx30, the "Slow" is xx03. The end of the traditional 10 o' clock departure of the Flying Scotsman!

 

[ainsworth74]

That is probably the most sensible thing of the whole lot.

I wouldn't worry it's being replaced with a service to Cleethorpes calling at Grimsby (they're apparently exploring options for stations between Lincoln and Grimsby as well)!

 

[southern442]

North of York LNER will have 2 trains as far as Edinburgh and a 3rd Newcastle terminator, and there’s also 5 new First open access per day. There’s also space for a 2 hourly extension of an LNER York service to Middlesbrough.

But that doesn't explain why TPE are unable to run the Edinburgh service. Is it a power supply problem?

 

[RailWonderer]

And what about intermediate stations that are now worse off? It's not really about Edinburgh (and remember TPE need to retain knowledge as they need access to Craigentinny so will still be running on the ECML north of Newcastle), it's about these stations...Morpeth? Northallerton? Darlington? Shall we forget these places just to accommodate another London-Edinburgh service. All are severely impacted.

Pretty shocking from the DfT.

I assume LNER, XC and First East Coast will share the stops TPE no longer covers to avoid a big loss of frequency, although they will mostly connect to the ECML and not the rest of the north directly.

 

[YorksLad12]

All Anglo-Scots departures from King's Cross switch around; the "Fast" (non-stop York) is now xx30, the "Slow" is xx03. The end of the traditional 10 o' clock departure of the Flying Scotsman!

Presumably then the First East Coast departures will be top of the hour, with the LNER stopper behind it? I mean, you'd like to think they would be spaced out, rather than within five minutes of each other...

 

[tommy2215]

There is a cross country sheet as well with the same sort of information in a different view: https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/travel-updates-information/consultation-may-2022

One thing I note is that there is no mention of the existing Leeds to Aberdeen LNER service. Other once a day ones are described, wonder if other operators will shortly show their timetables?

It mentions that it will run to/from Doncaster instead of Leeds from May 22.

 

[Ianno87]

Presumably then the First East Coast departures will be top of the hour, with the LNER stopper behind it? I mean, you'd like to think they would be spaced out, rather than within five minutes of each other...

From a capacity usage perspective, FEC using the xx00 path would be the most logical. No chance would trying to make it half-hourly ever be practical. Most passengers doing Anglo-Scots journeys will be with reservations etc anyway, so doesn't really matter if they are closely-spaced.

 

[ainsworth74]

One thing I note is that there is no mention of the existing Leeds to Aberdeen LNER service. Other once a day ones are described, wonder if other operators will shortly show their timetables?

Just checked the draft timetable that they offered - it's not shown. There is a service from London in roughly the same slot though, once it arrives at York.

It be dead. An ex-service. From the consultation document for 'North East Scotland' (see here)

The first LNER train to Aberdeen, Monday to Saturday, will come from London King's Cross (leaving at 05:48) instead of Leeds, providing a better morning service.

The last LNER train from Aberdeen, Monday to Friday, will go to Doncaster instead of Leeds.

It mentions under that it will run to/from Doncaster instead of Leeds from May 22.

It's from King's Cross.

 

[JonathanH]

From a capacity usage perspective, FEC using the xx00 path would be the most logical.

There is no reason for them to have the top of the hour - xx57 may be fine for example with LNER flighted behind.

 

[swt_passenger]

But that doesn't explain why TPE are unable to run the Edinburgh service. Is it a power supply problem?

I think the consultation does explain that the overall route capacity doesn’t exist. The power supply is a problem but would have been overcome for TPE purposes by running in diesel mode as they do now, so that can’t have been the main reason.

 

[DanNCL]

Chester-le-Street does well out of these proposals, TPE calls going up to hourly with the first southbound service two hours earlier than at present. The existing Northern stops there stay too, although the daily XC stop goes.

LNER are withdrawing their Sunderland service citing: "low passenger numbers since it was introduced by Virgin Trains East Coast" and "Sunderland continuing to have good connectivity with LNER services via Northern Trains and the Tyne and Wear Metro, as well as direct London services operated by Grand Central".

That is probably the most sensible thing of the whole lot.

The issues that would occur if for whatever reason the pantograph were to be raised on an 800 between Pelaw and Sunderland, along with the integrated ticketing with Nexus, probably contribute to the withdrawal of the direct Sunderland service from LNER.

 

[Ianno87]

There is no reason for them to have the top of the hour - xx57 may be fine for example with LNER flighted behind.

Though at xx57 it'll just catch up the xx47 faster. xx00 keeps it back some more. I suspect it'll stay behind the xx47 until that dives out of the way at Newark/York. (I suspect that FEC will use the xx00 path in the hours when the preceding xx47 goes to Lincoln; assuming the latter's Peterborough and Grantham stops cost around 4 minutes each).

 

[YorksLad12]

From a capacity usage perspective, FEC using the xx00 path would be the most logical. No chance would trying to make it half-hourly ever be practical. Most passengers doing Anglo-Scots journeys will be with reservations etc anyway, so doesn't really matter if they are closely-spaced.

Sorry - I meant that the two fast services would be at opposite ends of the hour (near enough) rather than following each other to give passengers a choice, an hourly FEC fast and an hourly LNER fast would be overkill!

 

[tommy2215]

It be dead. An ex-service. From the consultation document for 'North East Scotland' (see here)




It's from King's Cross.

Yes, via Doncaster. And The 18:16 from Aberdeen terminates at Doncaster instead of Leeds under the proposed timetable.

 

[ainsworth74]

The issues that would occur if for whatever reason the pantograph were to be raised on an 800 between Pelaw and Sunderland, along with the integrated ticketing with Nexus, probably contribute to the withdrawal of the direct Sunderland service from LNER.

I mean yes but the reason will be the one given. No-one uses the services therefore it's a waste of time and money to run it. The chance of an inadvertent pantograph raising I'd suggest is extremely remote such as to be functionally zero and certainly not significant enough to get rid of the service

 

[Ianno87]

Probably the respective fares revenue from each flow is the evidence.

The consultation slide pack (https://lner.citizenspace.com/user_...ge-consultation-document-final-version-v4.pdf) does do some analysis of London demand versus current LNER frequency for some of the North Eastern stations (on Slides 28/29)

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, via Doncaster.

Ah with you, still think it's worth being clear that the service to Aberdeen comes from Kings Cross even it does go via Doncaster! I read your original post as meaning the service started from Doncaster which is quite different!

 

[Ianno87]

Sorry - I meant that the two fast services would be at opposite ends of the hour (near enough) rather than following each other to give passengers a choice, an hourly FEC fast and an hourly LNER fast would be overkill!

Sorry, yes I see what you mean; having the fasts in this timetable at xx00 (presumably) and xx30 is actually pretty good!

 

[JonathanH]

Though at xx57 it'll just catch up the xx47 faster. xx00 keeps it back some more. I suspect it'll stay behind the xx47 until that dives out of the way at Newark/York. (I suspect that FEC will use the xx00 path in the hours when the preceding xx47 goes to Lincoln; assuming the latter's Peterborough and Grantham stops cost around 4 minutes each).

Yes, the point was really that the DfT wouldn't really want an open access operator 'on the hour' and that Grand Central also have non stop trains from London to York. What about potential Stevenage stops in the FEC services?

 

[Ianno87]

Yes, the point was really that the DfT wouldn't really want an open access operator 'on the hour'

Not for DfT to decide, if having Open Access "on the hour" is the best use of capacity

and that Grand Central also have non stop trains from London to York.

Good point (and also non-stop London-Donny); looks like the xx00 path is "good" on alternate hours only. Logically a non-stop path would also exist about xx27, in front of the xx30 the whole way.

Looks also like an ~xx17/18 path will exist for Hull Trains (when there isn't an xx27)

What about potential Stevenage stops in the FEC services?

Presumably an xx00/xx30 departure could become xx55/25 (or thereabouts) in those hours.

 

[DanNCL]

I mean yes but the reason will be the one given. No-one uses the services therefore it's a waste of time and money to run it. The chance of an inadvertent pantograph raising I'd suggest is extremely remote such as to be functionally zero and certainly not significant enough to get rid of the service

I remember it being quoted several years ago as a reason not to drag 91s that way during diversions, but yes I agree!

 

[tommy2215]

Surely it would be better to cut the Reading-Newcastle service short at York instead of the TPE Manchester-Newcastle? The class 220 and 221 trains have significantly less capacity than 802s after all.

 

[Starmill]

Interestingly, XC propose to revert the evening peak Newcastle-Reading service each way (that currently goes via Leeds as a peak extra), back to via Doncaster as per the standard hour (ostenisbly due to a lack of path through Leeds).

I don't think there's ever been a replacement for this service at Doncaster for Sheffield-bound passengers either. I was once caught out by this a couple of years ago of a Friday afternoon. I was going for the stopping service which would have followed it had it run that way, and was actually left behind at Doncaster because it was being worked by a two car 144 which was very very full. Oops!

 

[paddy1]

Unless I've missed something, no longer any ECML trains calling at both Newark and Retford, and only Hull Trains providing trains calling at both Retford and Grantham? Admitted only minute flows, but does that mean passengers between Newark and Retford would now have to double back via Doncaster/Grantham or travel via Lincoln?