Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable

[Austriantrain]

On some northbound journeys. However all the southbound trains from Aberdeen are 10+ minutes longer (go figure).

Never really understood the tendency for asymmetric timetables in the UK. I would be thankful if someone would explain (minor asymmetries for infrastructure reasons aside)!

 

[Ianno87]

Never really understood the tendency for asymmetric timetables in the UK. Maybe someone wants to enlighten me (minor asymmetries for infrastructure reasons aside)?

It'll often be due to terminal capacities being constrained.

i.e. you could have an absolutely perfect pattern in one direction, but all the trains in the other direction are timed based on their turnround times from the outward journey, as they have to fit within the available platform capacity. Or the number of trains available is the limitation, so trains can't sit around at terminals.

 

[JonathanH]

Never really understood the tendency for asymmetric timetables in the UK. I would be thankful if someone would explain (minor asymmetries for infrastructure reasons aside)!

It was covered up thread - at the moment, the Aberdeen trains run fast to Edinburgh then have a long dwell there to fit their slot further north. In the future they will leave a minute or so later from Kings Cross and have a shorter dwell at Edinburgh. Southbound, the departure times from Edinburgh don't move so they arrive later at Kings Cross. The overall running time isn't particularly different in each direction or stops.

 

[takno]

Never really understood the tendency for asymmetric timetables in the UK. I would be thankful if someone would explain (minor asymmetries for infrastructure reasons aside)!

I suspect part of it is that the biggest risk, and therefore the most need for performance minutes to be added in is in the southern end of the journey. If you arrive four down at Peterborough going north you've got 300 miles of good fast running to catch things back, and the main risk to decent running is that you run into an hourly borders line train at Portobello. If you arrive on time north of Peterborough and hit a queue of slightly delayed Thameslink trains going over the bit with no slow line, you aren't going to recover

 

[KJ83]

Not unless you're price savvy! if LNER is £100 for example, and East Coast is £30-50 there will be those that will travel then, especially as East Coast is aimed at the leisure market where people are more flexible with their time.

 

[Austriantrain]

It'll often be due to terminal capacities being constrained.

i.e. you could have an absolutely perfect pattern in one direction, but all the trains in the other direction are timed based on their turnround times from the outward journey, as they have to fit within the available platform capacity. Or the number of trains available is the limitation, so trains can't sit around at terminals.

Thank you!

 

[Jonny]

Meanwhile, the North of Tyne Mayor has gone wading into the consultation without, seemingly, the full facts. Aided and abetted by mis-reporting by the Newcastle Chronicle (per the second line in the quote box, which corresponds to pre-pandemic timetables).

Edit: please be aware that this is a piece of yellow journalism, with only minimal comment.

Mayor wants 'irrational' rail shakeup put on hold

Adding a third train per hour between London and Newcastle will mean that the North East's services to Manchester could be halved from next May

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

Mayor wants 'irrational' rail shakeup put on hold with key North East train services under threat​

Adding a third train per hour between London and Newcastle will mean that the North East's services to Manchester could be halved from next May

An “irrational” rail shakeup which could see a number of North East services axed should be put on hold, the North of Tyne mayor has urged.

Jamie Driscoll has called for a pause in plans to change the East Coast Main Line (ECML) timetable from May next year, amid a backlash from leaders across the region.

While the controversial revisions would mean a new third LNER service an hour between London and Newcastle, capacity restrictions mean that other routes have to be cut as a result.

[article gap on newspaper website]

The frequency of Transpennine trains between Newcastle and Manchester, via Durham and Darlington, will be halved from two an hour to just one.

(article continues)

Perhaps, for a start, he could have checked what the current timetable is before wading in and grand-standing. As it stands, it is basically a 1tph timetable on Transpennine to/from Newcastle.

 

[Glenn1969]

Before Covid it was 2tph though

 

[swt_passenger]

Meanwhile, the North of Tyne Mayor has gone wading into the consultation without, seemingly, the full facts. Aided and abetted by mis-reporting by the Newcastle Chronicle (per the second line in the quote box, which corresponds to pre-pandemic timetables).

Mayor wants 'irrational' rail shakeup put on hold

Adding a third train per hour between London and Newcastle will mean that the North East's services to Manchester could be halved from next May

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

Perhaps, for a start, he could have checked what the current timetable is before wading in and grand-standing. As it stands, it is basically a 1tph timetable on Transpennine to/from Newcastle.

Well the consultation refers to the notional 2 tph TPE timetable, so I don't really see why he can’t. But it won’t stop the change. Also, doesn't the LNER document highlight that the ECML demand is far higher than Manchester anyway? Perhaps the Mayor didn’t read it…

 

[Glenn1969]

I think LNER would say that given that serving London is their primary objective

 

[Jonny]

Well the consultation refers to the notional 2 tph TPE timetable, so I don't really see why he can’t. But it won’t stop the change. Also, doesn't the LNER document highlight that the ECML demand is far higher than Manchester anyway? Perhaps the Mayor didn’t read it…

I would take the proposed timetable for the increased calls at Chester-le-Street, which is my local station. Better 1tph calling Chester-le-Street (the predominant pattern) than one call per 2 hours (give or take an hour) on the current TPE timetable. What I find jarring about the whole episode is the way he talks about the December 2019 timetable as though it was still in operation.

 

[Glenn1969]

Well the consultation refers to the notional 2 tph TPE timetable, so I don't really see why he can’t. But it won’t stop the change. Also, doesn't the LNER document highlight that the ECML demand is far higher than Manchester anyway? Perhaps the Mayor didn’t read it…

I suppose some will win and some will lose

 

[Watershed]

Meanwhile, the North of Tyne Mayor has gone wading into the consultation without, seemingly, the full facts. Aided and abetted by mis-reporting by the Newcastle Chronicle (per the second line in the quote box, which corresponds to pre-pandemic timetables).

Edit: please be aware that this is a piece of yellow journalism, with only minimal comment.

Mayor wants 'irrational' rail shakeup put on hold

Adding a third train per hour between London and Newcastle will mean that the North East's services to Manchester could be halved from next May

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

Perhaps, for a start, he could have checked what the current timetable is before wading in and grand-standing. As it stands, it is basically a 1tph timetable on Transpennine to/from Newcastle.

I have no idea why you are so worked up about that article.

Whilst there is only 1tph between Newcastle and Manchester today, there was every aspiration to return to the pre-Covid 2tph. So calling it a halving is quite correct.

There is now no prospect of that second tph returning unless/until something major changes.

 

[Ianno87]

I think LNER would say that given that serving London is their primary objective

No, serving the highest number of passengers with their available resources and capacity is. Which means serving London.

 

[30907]

It'll often be due to terminal capacities being constrained.

i.e. you could have an absolutely perfect pattern in one direction, but all the trains in the other direction are timed based on their turnround times from the outward journey, as they have to fit within the available platform capacity. Or the number of trains available is the limitation, so trains can't sit around at terminals.

Another factor is that we seem to prefer exact intervals at the start of a journey rather than the end (or the interchange point - Knotenpunkt in German): so you have 00 and 30 from Edinburgh as well as Kings X.
Particularly noticeable if you have a better-than-hourly "Intercity" service, which is rare in mainland Europe.

It actually complicates planning, because a symmetrical timetable is easier (if you can factor in all the conflicts first time).

 

[takno]

Another factor is that we seem to prefer exact intervals at the start of a journey rather than the end (or the interchange point - Knotenpunkt in German): so you have 00 and 30 from Edinburgh as well as Kings X.
Particularly noticeable if you have a better-than-hourly "Intercity" service, which is rare in mainland Europe.

It actually complicates planning, because a symmetrical timetable is easier (if you can factor in all the conflicts first time).

I'm permanently mystified by this obsession with Taktplan. A completely reliable service which tends to be at best once an hour and will involve both changing and potentially adding hours to the journey by doing so sounds terrible to me. I just want to get on a train and get off at the other end. I'm personally willing to change at New Street if it saves a full 40 minutes, but even that isn't very appealing to me, and I don't even have luggage.

Fundamentally this recast will cement the fact that we have a better train service than Switzerland, and we should stop beating ourselves up about it.

 

[Austriantrain]

I'm permanently mystified by this obsession with Taktplan. A completely reliable service which tends to be at best once an hour and will involve both changing and potentially adding hours to the journey by doing so sounds terrible to me. I just want to get on a train and get off at the other end. I'm personally willing to change at New Street if it saves a full 40 minutes, but even that isn't very appealing to me, and I don't even have luggage.

Fundamentally this recast will cement the fact that we have a better train service than Switzerland, and we should stop beating ourselves up about it.

You will be hard pressed to find a service in Switzerland that is „at best once an hour“, some narrow gauge lines aside.

But I agree: The UK certainly has one of the best railway systems in Europe. No need to put down the others though. An integrated takt is certainly better whenever you have to go somewhere where there is no direct train. Which is often enough the case in the UK too. The Swiss Takt has in large parts evolved the way it is because it is such a polycentric country.

Note that the new ECML timetable discussed here *is* a Takt, just not an integrated one (which is to a large amount compensated by frequency).

 

[bramling]

GTR have posted a consultation for their proposed Great Northern May 2022 timetable.

Link is as follows https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/timetableconsultation

From what I can see, the obvious changes are as follows:

* Cambridge to Brighton services all call at Ashwell & Morden. The Cambridge to King's Cross services generally lose their Ashwell & Morden call.

* Welwyn to Sevenoaks happens

* The KX to Baldock peak services are abolished, instead the Cambridge to KX stopping service is amended to run fast south of Hitchin but calls at Welwyn North in the up direction, and Knebworth and Welwyn North in the down direction.

* The two late evening Baldock services are replaced by two Cambridge services, which call at Finsbury Park, Welwyn North, Knebworth, Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth, Baldock, Ashwell & Morden, Royston and Cambridge.

* In the peaks there is a Letchworth to King's Cross stopping service which picks up the calls south of Stevenage, and calls additionally at Alexandra Palace.

* All the King's Cross to Cambridge stopping services now call at Alexandra Palace. The up service is roughly as per today, the down service is completely retimed.

* Peterborough to Horsham services call additionally at Knebworth during the morning peak, in the up direction only (replacing the former Baldock services).

* Inners largely stay the same, however Brookmans Park and Welham Green get 4tph, which includes some calls from Sevenoaks services where needed to make up the numbers.

In my view it's a bit of a mess. Some through journeys are being lost, and it seems to benefit some less-used stations like Foxton, Shepreth, Meldreth and Baldock with London journeys, whilst disadvantaging rather busier stations in particular Hitchin. If usage returns to anything near what it was, the 8-car services on the Cambridge to KX route will fill up quite early, whereas today they start at Balcock and hoover up a lot of passengers at Baldock, Letchworth and Hitchin, all of which are very busy. I suspect this will push passengers onto the new Letchworth starters, leaving less room for people at places like Welwyn and Hatfield. Essentially it's undoing one of the positive features of May 2018 which does at least spread capacity across the whole route. I also don't really see the value in the Alexandra Palace call in the stopping service, it already has an excellent London service both peak and off-peak, this seems to be more for operational benefits than passenger value (I suspect it's a case that it would otherwise have been pathing time). Personally I think May 18 offered a better range of services. It looks like Cambridge to Maidstone is as far away as ever.

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit it isnt the best. I suspect Ally Pally is added simply because it is stuck on the slow if it didn’t it would just play snooker all the way to Finsbury Park.
Nice to see the Sevenoaks service.
I guess (hope) the peak kings cross services won’t be 700s which is my other positive.

 

[cle]

Is the Sevenoaks through just 4 services per peak?

 

[Hadders]

Another slow down of peak services between Stevenage and London if the Peterborough to Horsham trains are calling additionally at Knebworth.

Are the peak extras between Peterborough and London returning?

 

[tommy2215]

Another slow down of peak services between Stevenage and London if the Peterborough to Horsham trains are calling additionally at Knebworth.

Are the peak extras between Peterborough and London returning?

7 Peterborough to London Kings Cross semi fasts in the morning and 7 returning in the evening peak according to the proposed timetable.

 

[Ianno87]

London-Cambridge gets an effective 6tph in the peaks (none overtaken like today)

-xx18/48 Kings Cross-Cambridge fast (arrive xx11/41), continuing to Ely/King's Lynn

-xx24/54 Kings Cross to Cambridge (arrive xx33/03), fast to Welwyn North then stopping

-xx31/01 St Pancras (ex Brighton) as today, arrive xx38/08 (just in front of next fast)

Looks like Kings Cross-King's Lynn generally accelerated, e.g. Down departures moved off peak from xx42 to xx54, but Kings Lynn arrival only 4 minutes later. Currently these fester at Littleport for pathing on the onward single line.


Interesting that Meldreth/Shepreth/Foxton do well - whilst quiet in relative terms, they have had pretty strong growth since becoming 2tph 8-car vice 1tph 4-car most of the day.

GTR have posted a consultation for their proposed Great Northern May 2022 timetable.

Link is as follows https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/timetableconsultation

From what I can see, the obvious changes are as follows:

* Cambridge to Brighton services all call at Ashwell & Morden.

In the Down direction, the present 3-4 minute "fester" at Finsbury Park is removed, with train running earlier through to Ashwell and Morden. So Core-Stevenage/Hitchin/Letchworth/Baldock journeys get a couple of minutes quicker.

 

[bramling]

Another slow down of peak services between Stevenage and London if the Peterborough to Horsham trains are calling additionally at Knebworth.

Are the peak extras between Peterborough and London returning?

Agreed on the former point. It seems a very messy solution to stick the Knebworth call in the Horsham train like that.

The Peterborough extras return more or less to 2018 levels by the look of it - whether this will actually happen remains to be seen of course!

 

[Failed Unit]

SDO doesn’t seem tidy for that stop. I guess picking up is easier. Put when we have had 12 vice 8 on this route in the past people still get caught out and it isn’t as if they are not told. The walk from the declassified first is a little long.

 

[bramling]

London-Cambridge gets an effective 6tph in the peaks (none overtaken like today)

-xx18/48 Kings Cross-Cambridge fast (arrive xx11/41), continuing to Ely/King's Lynn

-xx24/54 Kings Cross to Cambridge (arrive xx33/03), fast to Welwyn North then stopping

-xx31/01 St Pancras (ex Brighton) as today, arrive xx38/08 (just in front of next fast)

Looks like Kings Cross-King's Lynn generally accelerated, e.g. Down departures moved off peak from xx42 to xx54, but Kings Lynn arrival only 4 minutes later. Currently these fester at Littleport for pathing on the onward single line.


Interesting that Meldreth/Shepreth/Foxton do well - whilst quiet in relative terms, they have had pretty strong growth since becoming 2tph 8-car vice 1tph 4-car most of the day.



In the Down direction, the present 3-4 minute "fester" at Finsbury Park is removed, with train running earlier through to Ashwell and Morden. So Core-Stevenage/Hitchin/Letchworth/Baldock journeys get a couple of minutes quicker.

This proposal does seem to heavily benefit the Cambridge area, to the detriment of elsewhere. They’d be better off putting the villages calls in one of the Brighton services, as at least they would be 12 cars (I realise this is only an option in the up direction due to the crossings). But it will be a mess for the 8-car trains to be laden with people by the time they reach the Baldock / Letchworth / Hitchin area, the whole purpose of the Baldock start was to give a fresh fast train for these busy stations, to avoid people opting for the slower services and thus causing issues further in.

This proposal seems to strip away what good points May 18 had about it, and bring back some negative elements of the previous service. They’ve managed to find the worst of both worlds!

The Baldock turnarounds *are* an issue for sure, though I don’t buy the bit about the Cambridge stopping service being delay-prone - it really isn’t (though it certainly would be if Maidstone had happened). I’d keep the pattern as it is now, but cut the Baldock starts back to Letchworth, and perhaps look at building a reversing siding at Baldock in the medium term.

What they’re proposing with the stopping service is really rather bizarre - and severing some local journeys in the process.

 

[HST43257]

Can we have a speculative thread for changes we’d make to this Plan?

 

[bramling]

Can we have a speculative thread for changes we’d make to this Plan?

The whole thing is already speculative - it’s a consultation, not an actual fully planned timetable.

 

[HST43257]

The whole thing is already speculative - it’s a consultation, not an actual fully planned timetable.

I guess my real question is:

is it best to make a new thread for my personal ideas for changes to this

 

[Class 170101]

The whole thing is already speculative - it’s a consultation, not an actual fully planned timetable.

It won't be far short of a fully planned timetable, final submission is September time.