Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[142blue]

No one seems to have informed National Rail Enquiries


A tad over-simplistic: if purchased prior to boarding (or onboard if that is not possible) then it is the appropriate First Class fare that is used.

Which at certain times / weekends would be an off peak first

However it is the difference to the first anytime

It may be that an on the day advance or seatfrog may be the better option

As for NRE no idea why that's on there but it shouldn't be

 

[tspaul26]

However it is the difference to the first anytime

Only if the Anytime is the appropriate First Class fare

 

[142blue]

Trust me when I say it's the difference to an anytime first

If I was permitted to share the brief with you on this I would

 

[tspaul26]

Trust me when I say it's the difference to an anytime first

If I was permitted to share the brief with you on this I would

A private briefing cannot over-ride the Conditions of Travel. It is the appropriate First Class fare, which may or may not be the Anytime fare.

I have half a mind to test the matter when I am travelling back from London later this month: it will be either the difference to a First Off-Peak fare or a formal complaint with escalation as necessary.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

A private briefing cannot over-ride the Conditions of Travel. It is the appropriate First Class fare, which may or may not be the Anytime fare.

I have half a mind to test the matter when I am travelling back from London later this month: it will be either the difference to a First Off-Peak fare or a formal complaint with escalation as necessary.

Although technically, if facilities exist at the station beforehand, are you not obliged to make use of them? If you sit in a first class carriage with a standard ticket, on some operators you can be given a very expensive Penalty Fare or even prosecuted.

Although Avanti don't seem to operate a Penalty Fare scheme, on what basis do you believe you are entitled to upgrade on the train, if facilities were open at say, Euston? Surely the operator is entitled to treat you as travelling without a valid ticket.

National Condition 15.3 says you should upgrade beforehand, before you board the train.

15.4 says some operators allow a supplement to be paid on board, and where this is the case, will be published in notices. Does Avanti have a notice anywhere saying you do not need to upgrade beforehand for first class accomodation?

Edit:

I have actually found such a notice, so unless / until they delete that, you should be OK! If they do remove that text though, it seems they could penalise you legitimately.

First Class Train Tickets | First Class | Avanti West Coast

Book First Class and you'll get to enjoy our First Class station lounges, complimentary food and drinks service, and seating upgrades.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Can I upgrade to First Class on the train?
The simplest way to go First Class is to select a First Class ticket when booking. But if you've booked Standard and you feel like upgrading once you're on the train, just speak to the Train Manager. You can pay the difference onboard.

 

[142blue]

Which is to a first anytime

 

[tspaul26]

Although technically, if facilities exist at the station beforehand, are you not obliged to make use of them? If you sit in a first class carriage with a standard ticket, on some operators you can be given a very expensive Penalty Fare or even prosecuted.

As I said earlier in the thread:

A tad over-simplistic: if purchased prior to boarding (or onboard if that is not possible) then it is the appropriate First Class fare that is used.

Which is to a first anytime

Provide this mystery briefing because the Conditions of Travel don’t say that.

NRCOT n.15.3:

A standard class Ticket can in most cases be upgraded to first class. Where this is the case you should pay the additional fare due before you board the train. The amount you pay will be the difference between the fare you have already paid and the appropriate first class fare for the journey you wish to make.

15.4 says some operators allow a supplement to be paid on board, and where this is the case, will be published in notices. Does Avanti have a notice anywhere saying you do not need to upgrade beforehand for first class accomodation?

Edit:

I have actually found such a notice, so unless / until they delete that, you should be OK! If they do remove that text though, it seems they could penalise you legitimately.

I would be extremely cautious about even attempting to rely on that in order to occupy First Class accommodation prior to speaking to the train manager.

Supplements (such as Weekend First) are a slightly different creature to a Standard to First Excess Fare.

 

[Hazlehead]

Travelling again last week I had a chat with the train manager about the situation. He explained It's rather confusing at the moment for everyone. When it came out originally it was J & K First Class, H & G STD Premium on an 11 car. On a 9 car you just had H as STD Premium.What then happened was more people than they thought began buying first class tickets & with social distancing still in place restricting numbers to only 21 across First Class in J & K both staff & passengers complained about the lack of space. As a short term solution, expecting social distancing to go on 21st June, Avanti then made Coach H First Class on an 11 car to spread people out and started to make reservations in it. The problems that are occurring are when a 9 car is diagrammed vice an 11 car so you have the situation whereby you have First Class reservations in STD Premium. The delay to the lifting of social distancing has of course impacted the above. Once social distancing goes in a couple of weeks it will then revert back to J & K First Class & H & G STD Premium. (As the trains are refurbished Coach G will become an extra 8th STD class coach). Premium STD is not due to be fully launched until sometime in September, with passengers able to book new STD Premium Advances from July for travel from September. These by the sound of it will be the old 'Cheaper Tier ' Advance 1st tickets. I also asked about Seatfrog, he said it's under review with 3 options on the table. 1. Much higher upgrade price to 1st Class 2. It becomes a STD Premium upgrade with similar upgrade prices as now or 3. It's abolished all together

It does seem like Avanti have managed to make a remarkable mess out of something that should be very simple.

 

[Falcon1200]

Thanks for the update Terrier.

As a (very fortunate) holder of safeguarded First Class travel facilities I cannot really complain about the reduction in First Class seating, although it is a pity that the excellent value Advance First Class fares have been abolished; I have taken advantage over the last few years to allow my Mum to visit us in Scotland. In future she may have to use Standard Premium instead, however..... Rail staff pass holders are not allowed to use this accommodation, which means we would need to sit separately !

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for the update Terrier.

As a (very fortunate) holder of safeguarded First Class travel facilities I cannot really complain about the reduction in First Class seating, although it is a pity that the excellent value Advance First Class fares have been abolished; I have taken advantage over the last few years to allow my Mum to visit us in Scotland. In future she may have to use Standard Premium instead, however..... Rail staff pass holders are not allowed to use this accommodation, which means we would need to sit separately !

Yes, it's rather odd that, given that Avanti want Standard Premium to be the default option for upgrading, they are now preventing Priv holders from upgrading to it at all (in fact, even First Class staff facilities are not valid in Standard Premium!).

With Weekend/Weekday First being abolished, that could mean your only way of upgrading a £23.60 Priv-rate Off-Peak Return from London to Manchester is to pay the excess to the £326 public-rate First Off-Peak Return. In other words "get lost and stick with standard".

I really hope Avanti have a rethink on the whole Standard Premium concept. It seems to me to be a bad idea, very poorly executed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really hope Avanti have a rethink on the whole Standard Premium concept. It seems to me to be a bad idea, very poorly executed.

Personally I think it is an excellent idea, but implemented with a typical Avanti/FirstGroup lackadaisical and incompetent approach. I think under a better standard of management, say that of LNER, it would succeed massively.

I think it will fail but not because of the idea itself. I am disappointed at this, because I want to use it - I want to pay about 1.5 times Standard fare for a more comfortable seat without any gimmicks, like First Class is in most of the rest of the world.

 

[Journeyman]

I really hope Avanti have a rethink on the whole Standard Premium concept. It seems to me to be a bad idea, very poorly executed.

It's a brilliant idea. Eurostar have been doing something similar for ages, and done properly it'll maximise revenue and fill seats that would otherwise be empty.

Personally I think it is an excellent idea, but implemented with a typical Avanti/FirstGroup lackadaisical and incompetent approach. I think under a better standard of management, say that of LNER, it would succeed massively.

Agreed. There's room for an intermediate product like this.

I think it will fail but not because of the idea itself. I am disappointed at this, because I want to use it - I want to pay about 1.5 times Standard fare for a more comfortable seat without any gimmicks, like First Class is in most of the rest of the world.

I mainly use LNER for long distance services, and use First wherever it's affordable. If they did Standard Premium, I'd use it a lot.

 

[Djgr]

I wonder how this ties in with the Great British Railways' objective of streamlining and simplifying fare structures?

 

[Watershed]

done properly it'll maximise revenue and fill seats that would otherwise be empty.

They are effectively charging the same for Standard Premium as they did for First Class, with the exception of a slightly cheaper weekday upgrade.

First Class was rarely fully occupied, so if they think they're going to fill more seats by charging more...

 

[voyagerdude220]

Rail staff pass holders are not allowed to use this accommodation, which means we would need to sit separately !

So if I'm understanding you correctly, I'd be unable to upgrade my Standard Class Priv ticket to Standard Premium?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are effectively charging the same for Standard Premium as they did for First Class, with the exception of a slightly cheaper weekday upgrade.

No they're not. Other than on weekends, when First Class wasn't really full First Class anyway, as the service was much lower.

The weekday upgrade is considerably cheaper, not slightly cheaper, as the difference to even a First Off Peak is huge. The £50 upgrade isn't really relevant as it wasn't offered uniformly, it was a discretionary tool for guards to fill empty seats.

 

[Mag_seven]

It's a brilliant idea. Eurostar have been doing something similar for ages, and done properly it'll maximise revenue and fill seats that would otherwise be empty.

Sorry but I would argue that Eurostar Standard Premium and Avanti Standard Premium aren't comparable. For a start you get complementary refreshments in the Eurostar version.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry but I would argue that Eurostar Standard Premium and Avanti Standard Premium aren't comparable. For a start you get complementary refreshments in the Eurostar version.

They are comparable in that they are a reduced-service version of First Class with the same seats.

 

[BluePenguin]

They are comparable in that they are a reduced-service version of First Class with the same seats.

But on Eurostar the only difference between Standard Premier and Business Premier is you get cold food in the former and hot food in the latter. This is not much of a reduction. At least the tea is still hot

The difference between Standard Premium and First Class is there is no food or drink at all. We can’t really compare

 

[Bletchleyite]

But on Eurostar the only difference between Standard Premier and Business Premier is you get cold food in the former and hot food in the latter. This is not much of a reduction. At least the tea is still hot

The difference between Standard Premium and First Class is there is no food or drink at all. We can’t really compare

We can compare - it's a reduced-service First Class at a lower price. The precise level of reduction is different, I'll give you, but it is still the same basic idea - more affordable First Class by removing frills in favour of the core product - a more comfortable seat and lower density of passengers.

 

[Journeyman]

We can compare - it's a reduced-service First Class at a lower price. The precise level of reduction is different, I'll give you, but it is still the same basic idea - more affordable First Class by removing frills in favour of the core product - a more comfortable seat and lower density of passengers.

Exactly, and those are the things I'm most willing to pay for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly, and those are the things I'm most willing to pay for.

Same.

In essence if you don't like it it isn't aimed at you. Priority boarding on planes is a very similarly differentiated product - by and large you either like it and buy it or wonder what the point is.

 

[Falcon1200]

So if I'm understanding you correctly, I'd be unable to upgrade my Standard Class Priv ticket to Standard Premium?

Unfortunately yes, this is what the relevant section in the Rail Delivery Group Staff Travel Restrictions section says:

'Standard Premium accommodation is currently only available as an onboard upgrade for members of the public and at the moment is not available to holders of any Staff Travel Facilities.'

 

[voyagerdude220]

Unfortunately yes, this is what the relevant section in the Rail Delivery Group Staff Travel Restrictions section says:

'Standard Premium accommodation is currently only available as an onboard upgrade for members of the public and at the moment is not available to holders of any Staff Travel Facilities.'

Thanks for confirming.
Whilst I don't have any journeys planned at the moment, I would have been annoyed had I boarded a train with the intention of upgrading to Standard Premier, only to be turfed out when I had my ticket checked.

 

[Grumpy Git]

In my limited experience the Standard Premier on Eurostar trumps Avanti First Class weekday by miles, particularly in the afternoon/evenings, where the Avanti food offering is/was a complete joke.

 

[station_road]

On a 9 coach Manchester - London service this evening, the Train Manager announced that coach H would be for First Class ticket holders only as there were too many seat reservations in First to accommodate everyone, Standard Premium wouldn't be available. First was very busy, but Standard mostly empty.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Safe to say Standard Premium has been an absolute car crash then?

Mainly down to First not launching it properly at all.

 

[Butts]

Safe to say Standard Premium has been an absolute car crash then?

Mainly down to First not launching it properly at all.

A soft launch - "soft in the head" that is ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Safe to say Standard Premium has been an absolute car crash then?

Mainly down to First not launching it properly at all.

It sounds like, which is disappointing as if it does well it could be really good.

Was it a franchise commitment? Have First perhaps decided they don't want it after all and so are deliberately botching it?

 

[Scotrail314209]

It sounds like, which is disappointing as if it does well it could be really good.

Was it a franchise commitment? Have First perhaps decided they don't want it after all and so are deliberately botching it?

It sounds to me like First want to show they've actually done something since 2019. I understand this been a pandemic, but things could've worked behind the scenes. SP could've easily been rolled out in early 2020 or when restrictions eased for the first time.

Other than that, Avanti haven't did very much. The staff still wear the Virgin colours, and the trains (bar the voyagers) are still Virgin coloured on the inside.