158’s with no air conditioning

[WAO]

It's not usually the a/c systems that are faulty, although they can be cheaply designed only for lower temperatures (tripping when hot!) and are underpowered when fitted to DMU's. It's really the limited depot maintenance skills and low priority given to passenger (and staff) comfort that's the problem, as in offices with a/c. Which depot has a skilled in-house a/c technician? The UK did have a competent industry once (Temperature Ltd, Stone Platt of Crawley etc) but foreign procurement and de-skilling of the workforce had the inevitable result.

I would record daily temperatures in each unit and insist as part of their employment contract that the relevant fitters and management (particularly the accountants) should have to work for a day in the most extreme condition recorded.

I travelled on UK built Mark 3's for most of their life and rarely found a problem or wished for opening windows.

WAO

 

[LowLevel]

I used them quite a lot in the mid 90s and I definitely recall it being pretty good, as I say it was like stepping aboard a fridge.

Back then it was Mk2s and Mk3s where it was really rubbish and unreliable.

You still get units that are like sitting in a fridge. Some are brilliant - though the system will only take so much. Others have leaks that are unlikely to ever be fixed so they're regassed and put back into service and knackered again within the week.

I was on a TFW 158 with failed aircon a few days ago. I thought the guard who got on swapping with another at Chester might have been exaggerating when they said "god, it's hot on here." Sadly they weren't. Very well refurbished trains, but hellish sweatboxes. Of course the guard had the luxury of staying in the rear cab, so the passengers just sweated away. No thought to opening the emergency fanlights, it seems. Typical TFW.

The cabs are no better. They're made of fibreglass and opening the windows do little to cool them down.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Without digging through the whole thread apologies if this had been said before. Threre was a time when guards were trained on how to reset the air con units on 158s. The Ebac systems were easy to do by entering the code,clearing faults and selecting high cooling. If that didn't work then it was time to turn it off and open the windows. The Temperature ones were more temperamental,one could try and override them but it seldom worked. Nowadays the ones I work on all have locks on the cupboard doors to prevent guards interfering with them and turning them off, they will blast out warm air with the windows open. The only way to stop that is to trip the MCB in the cab.

 

[yorksrob]

The UK did have a competent industry once (Temperature Ltd, Stone Platt of Crawley etc) but foreign procurement and de-skilling of the workforce had the inevitable result.

The same old story.

This country never learns.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I happened to jump a into the back unit of a pair of TfW 158's from Oxford Rd to Piccadilly yesterday afternoon, it was like an oven! Even that very short hop was stifling.

 

[Snow1964]

Someone once said to me, just remember the maintenance of the air conditioning is done by the same depot that maintains the brakes

So relying on them applying different quality control standards to different parts of their work, which seems dubious practice to me.

 

[RPI]

Without digging through the whole thread apologies if this had been said before. Threre was a time when guards were trained on how to reset the air con units on 158s. The Ebac systems were easy to do by entering the code,clearing faults and selecting high cooling. If that didn't work then it was time to turn it off and open the windows. The Temperature ones were more temperamental,one could try and override them but it seldom worked. Nowadays the ones I work on all have locks on the cupboard doors to prevent guards interfering with them and turning them off, they will blast out warm air with the windows open. The only way to stop that is to trip the MCB in the cab.

Yes I remember that, if it failed to fix the fault you set it to "vent" and opened the windows.

It doesn't help that some guards don't give the aircon time to work and simply open the windows too soon which completely screws up the aircon

 

[superjohn]

Someone once said to me, just remember the maintenance of the air conditioning is done by the same depot that maintains the brakes

So relying on them applying different quality control standards to different parts of their work, which seems dubious practice to me.

Logical fallacy at its very best!

Sometimes faults cannot be repaired immediately, perhaps because parts have to be ordered etc, it has nothing to do with the quality control. A train with defective brakes would not be allowed to enter or continue in service. A train with defective air conditioning isn’t ideal but is better than cancelling a service.

Judgement calls like this are made all the time. Show me any train in service with absolutely no faults and I’ll eat my hat. Safety critical is what matters, there is nothing dubious about it at all.

 

[DB]

Last Saturday I was a passenger on a 333, 170, 158 and 155. All Northern.
The 333 and 170 were both very poor to travel in and I suspect their air conditioning wasn't working. I don't believe either have the option of opening windows. The 158 had functioning air con and was a delight to travel in apart from the engine noise. The week before a 158 on Nottingham-Leeds also had functioning aircon. I didn't note the vehicle numbers so possibly these 158's were ex Scottish.

333s do have opening windows, but it's rare for the aircon to fail - and if it does it's normally only one carriage so unless it's really busy you can go in one of the other three. With 158s, it's not uncommon at all for it to be broken in both carriages, esepcially in hot weather, and it's not limited ot one operator of them either - they all reliably tend to fail in hot weather. I try to avoid any long journeys on them when the heat is like this as it's predictable what is likely to happen.

It doesn't help that some guards don't give the aircon time to work and simply open the windows too soon which completely screws up the aircon

It'll overload it and make it even more likely to fail!

 

[LowLevel]

Yes I remember that, if it failed to fix the fault you set it to "vent" and opened the windows.

It doesn't help that some guards don't give the aircon time to work and simply open the windows too soon which completely screws up the aircon

The problem is you can't set it to vent - you can force it into vent in maintenance mode but that only lasts 20 minutes before it reverts to auto.

If the micropack correctly detects a high pressure fault (too hot) or low pressure fault (needs regassing) it will put itself into vent mode - however if it fails with a HP fault at some point it will try and recover and that won't work with the windows open. Worst is when it says cooling but there is no sign of life - trying to get a depot to accept that "it says cooling and seems OK to us at 1am on the fuel line with an empty train" is a waste of their ink in the repair book and my time reporting it is difficult. Repeat reports usually lead to a TRI being dispatched to confirm "oh, no, it isn't working". Cooling + no noise whatsoever from the roof area usually = requires repairs.

It's a crap system with a crap controller but what can you expect on a train of that age with limited capability.

 

[RPI]

The problem is you can't set it to vent - you can force it into vent in maintenance mode but that only lasts 20 minutes before it reverts to auto.

If the micropack correctly detects a high pressure fault (too hot) or low pressure fault (needs regassing) it will put itself into vent mode - however if it fails with a HP fault at some point it will try and recover and that won't work with the windows open. Worst is when it says cooling but there is no sign of life - trying to get a depot to accept that "it says cooling and seems OK to us at 1am on the fuel line with an empty train" is a waste of their ink in the repair book and my time reporting it is difficult. Repeat reports usually lead to a TRI being dispatched to confirm "oh, no, it isn't working". Cooling + no noise whatsoever from the roof area usually = requires repairs.

It's a crap system with a crap controller but what can you expect on a train of that age with limited capability.

The system that was installed to the units then is no longer fitted, at least to any of the GWR ones.

 

[LowLevel]

The system that was installed to the units then is no longer fitted, at least to any of the GWR ones.

We have Ebac and Westinghouse controllers on ours complete in some cases with vintage 1994 RR Alphaline branded instructions the latter in theory will stick in the state you put it in, but in practice getting it to actually "click over" appears to be largely random.

 

[Snow1964]

Logical fallacy at its very best!

Sometimes faults cannot be repaired immediately, perhaps because parts have to be ordered etc, it has nothing to do with the quality control. A train with defective brakes would not be allowed to enter or continue in service. A train with defective air conditioning isn’t ideal but is better than cancelling a service.

Judgement calls like this are made all the time. Show me any train in service with absolutely no faults and I’ll eat my hat. Safety critical is what matters, there is nothing dubious about it at all.

OK, so your concept is don’t keep a sufficient stock of spare parts, then put it in service anyway although not ideal.

I question why you can’t see that keeping spare parts would be a better solution that having someone potentially faint due to overheating. Surely something that could cause harm to a passenger ought to be in the same shouldn’t be in service category.

Asking people to wear masks in hot stuffy weather is not really compatible with not having ventilation operative.

 

[DB]

It's a crap system with a crap controller but what can you expect on a train of that age with limited capability.

There are older trains with more reliable systems - e.g. Mk3s (both HST and LHCS).

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK, so your concept is don’t keep a sufficient stock of spare parts, then put it in service anyway although not ideal.

I question why you can’t see that keeping spare parts would be a better solution that having someone potentially faint due to overheating. Surely something that could cause harm to a passenger ought to be in the same shouldn’t be in service category.

If it's not even circulating air (albeit just pumping in from outside) the COVID situation is questionable, too.

 

[Aictos]

Trains with no heating or air con should be counted as a major fault and not run on the same basis as having an engine out or similar.
The financial penalty may encourage the depots to give maintaining it some priority.
K

You think that but if operators are happy to run trains with no toilets for a 6hr round trip then I doubt very much that they would consider a train with no air conditioning to be a major fault and thus reason to withdraw it from service.

Drivers aren't even allowed to refuse to drive trains with train defects as I've given as a example, if it runs then it's in service and to hell with the outcome.

Not very passenger or staff friendly but it happens frequently.

 

[scotraildriver]

Scotrail have in the last couple of months replaced all the controllers with brand new units from Knorr Bremse. We'll see how that goes.

 

[LowLevel]

Scotrail have in the last couple of months replaced all the controllers with brand new units from Knorr Bremse. We'll see how that goes.

If it is the same as the prototype trialled on 158770 by EMT it'll work for about 3 months then be buggered forevermore

 

[scotraildriver]

If it is the same as the prototype trialled on 158770 by EMT it'll work for about 3 months then be buggered forevermore

Hope not. They've done the whole fleet!

 

[superkev]

The 158 non working air con debate reappears each year at the first sign summer. You would think after 30years of trying someone woukd have the expertise and more likely the will. to come up with a solution.
From my background now retired in such things in data centres its all about regular maintenance keeping the the condenser etc. fins clean and fans all working.
Systems are sized on the expected maximum outside ambient which was lower than now 30 years ago. During more recent hot spells keep things it was not uncommon to have to deploy hoses to cool the condensers down to keep things going.
Up in Northern land since Arriva left who i suspect didn't do any air con maintenance i notice less units have the emergency ventilators open so perhaps someone is at least trying.
Also up in Northern land a few of the 170s air con has given up too but as they dont have hoppers they have to fix them
My solution, bigger condensers and fans and remove the hoppers to both encourage proper maintensnce and stop guards opening them to try cool down the world.
Nothing will happen as it will, as usual, all be forgotten in the Autumn.
Like 0many ill continue to stick to my nice cool car when the sun shines
K

 

[Bikeman78]

Judging by the onslaught of mesages that TfW Rail twitter have been bombarded with this weekend from angry passengers stuck in sweltering trains "with no air con and no windows that open", I assume that when the 158s have gone in for their internal refurbs, the defective air con has been left untouched?
Ok, a lot has changed since the original W&B contract was awarded to Keolis Amey 3 years ago, but I'm pretty sure I remember when the contract was awarded that KA promised to "fix" the air con in the 158s. Has that ambition now been abandoned?
Are the 175s having air con issues as well?

It's not great when the rail industry is advertising how "safe" and well ventilated even air conditioned trains are, and then TfW passengers find themselves stuck in sealed, sweltering, airless carriages.

The Scottish ones are no better and it's considerably cooler outside up here. I've travelled on 10 different units. Windows open on 19 vehicles and all sweltering. The DMU on the Keith and Dufftown was cooler inside. As others have suggested, bin the air con and put opening windows in.

By comparison, all the HSTs, 170s and 385s were pleasantly cool.

 

[bramling]

Or ditched the air conditioning and installed completely new air conditioning

Like others have said, this discussion comes around every year, and it probably gets worse every year as regional services now have a mix of non air con/air con trains (with the introduction of 185,195 etc) whereas at one time you just didn’t expect air con on a regional service as nothing pretty much had it

The problem with “fix the air conditioning” is that it hasn’t happened. 30 years is enough to get the feeling that this simply isn’t going to happen.

Opening windows is at least a guaranteed fix.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with “fix the air conditioning” is that it hasn’t happened. 30 years is enough to get the feeling that this simply isn’t going to happen.

Opening windows is at least a guaranteed fix.

It doesn't need fixing, it needs abandoning and replacing, with e.g. the Chiltern system fitted to the 165s which definitely does work.

The "leaky pipes" issue from body flex is interesting - 170s I guess avoid that by having two smaller self-contained packs mounted on the roof, one feeding each end of the air conduits. The other upside of that is that if one fails the other one can just about keep things tolerable.

It also requires a culture change from "if the wheels turn (and stop turning when required), it goes out" which is still prevalent in many areas of railway maintenance (see also faulty PIS, reservation displays etc). Attention to detail is important.

 

[Horizon22]

It also requires a culture change from "if the wheels turn (and stop turning when required), it goes out" which is still prevalent in many areas of railway maintenance (see also faulty PIS, reservation displays etc). Attention to detail is important.

Yes and no. Absoutely challenge depots and maintenance teams to be better on all faults, but at the same time there has to be a priority list somewhere and if not, you're cancelling more trains.

I've read in several places that parts are getting much harder to come by, especially for Sprinter and even Turbo stock. It's only a problem that going to get worse as depot teams "cannibalise" other units to get things working. Not to mention the retrofitting of various systems which are hit and miss.

 

[bramling]

It doesn't need fixing, it needs abandoning and replacing, with e.g. the Chiltern system fitted to the 165s which definitely does work.

The "leaky pipes" issue from body flex is interesting - 170s I guess avoid that by having two smaller self-contained packs mounted on the roof, one feeding each end of the air conduits. The other upside of that is that if one fails the other one can just about keep things tolerable.

It also requires a culture change from "if the wheels turn (and stop turning when required), it goes out" which is still prevalent in many areas of railway maintenance (see also faulty PIS, reservation displays etc). Attention to detail is important.

You may well be right about a culture change, but that culture change would require luxuries like lots of spare units, every unit returning to a major depot each night, more depot space, and of course lots more staff. It’s not going to happen unfortunately.

The 159s have some of these luxuries, yet even their air conditioning is patchy.

Most rolling stock depots currently work on the basic of being somewhere between very busy and manic.

 

[bnsf734]

I was in Scotland last week and virtually every 158 was running around with the emergency windows open and very very warm and sweaty inside - the aircon was non-existent. Came home over the S&C on a 3 car Northern 158 on Friday where it was very warm and sunny, too much for the air conditioning so the guard opened the windows for us - much better.

 

[DB]

I was in Scotland last week and virtually every 158 was running around with the emergency windows open and very very warm and sweaty inside - the aircon was non-existent. Came home over the S&C on a 3 car Northern 158 on Friday where it was very warm and sunny, too much for the air conditioning so the guard opened the windows for us - much better.

Opening the windows will probably overload the aircon and cause it to fail, so the windows shouldn't be opened unless it has already failed or has been switched off.

158s only have four hopper windows per vehicle, which is not really sufficient.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Opening the windows will probably overload the aircon and cause it to fail, so the windows shouldn't be opened unless it has already failed or has been switched off.

To be honest that just highlights how awful it is. No piece of machinery should be designed so it can overload itself even if operating conditions are breached. It should simply degrade gracefully.

For example electric showers have overheat/low pressure switches, but when the temperature has dropped and the pressure returned to normal power is reinstated automatically.

 

[PHILIPE]

I don't think we can always refer to problems as equipment failures but it seems that it is a design failure that can't cope in all settings and conditions.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I've only ever travelled on one 158 where the Air-Con was working properly but that was back in 2014 during the Commonwealth Games. It was x2 2 car sets together, one was like an oven and the other was like the arctic circle. The 158s are awful units regardless and I can't wait to see the back of them.

I've made many 158 journeys where the air-con was either working or, more likely, didn't need to be (because the outside air temp. was sufficiently cool) but the only time I actually noticed the air-con having an effect was probably around 2014 (or even earlier) - pretty sure it was a Northern unit.

I would completely disagree that the 158s are awful units; the air-con on them is (frequently) awful but other than that they are decent units. If you think they are awful then what do you think is good?

Even the AC on the SWR sprinters is struggling, noticed a triple 159 with all the windows open earlier tonight.

Although the AC on the 195s had failed on a couple services yesterday

In other words, no train with air-con seems to be exempt from air-con failures - even the newest DMUs on the network and the famously reliable Salisbury fleet can have trouble.

The Scottish ones are no better and it's considerably cooler outside up here. I've travelled on 10 different units. Windows open on 19 vehicles and all sweltering. The DMU on the Keith and Dufftown was cooler inside. As others have suggested, bin the air con and put opening windows in.

By comparison, all the HSTs, 170s and 385s were pleasantly cool.

Opening windows isn't a complete solution either - I once was on a Cardiff to Portsmouth 158 with the windows open (admittedly they don't all open, but I don't think adding more would have made much difference) which was eventually terminated short at Westbury due to the heat. On the rare occasions we got up to speed the open windows were helping, but most of the time we were crawling along and the open windows were having virtually no effect. If it's this hot, I would expect Temporary Speed Restrictions (I'm guessing that's why my aborted train was going so slow, but I don't know for sure) to be in force in many areas meaning the driver cannot get the speed up to make the open windows effective.

In further evidence of the 'no train is safe', in 2019 my mother and I cut short our holiday in the Cambridge area a few days before the temperature record was set. While not roasting (which the 158 that dumped me at Westbury was), the GA and XC class 170s weren't exactly cool.