Manchester Victoria or Manchester Piccadilly

[Bletchleyite]

With the completion of the recent refurbishment of Manchester Victoria, I'm wondering which of these two mainline Manchester stations people prefer to use, or which do you like more - and why?

And slightly differing from the theme, but when you think of Manchester and London mainline stations, which station in each city first comes to your mind? I'm not including Birmingham and Liverpool here because these are pretty obvious.

I really dislike Victoria. It just has a very oppressive feel to it, particularly with the ticket barriers being the main visible feature, poor retail and the platforms themselves being even-more-fume-choked versions of Birmingham New St. A truly nasty station not at all fit for a great city.

Yes, the tram stop is fancy, but that's only relevant if you are using the tram.

Piccadilly is an excellent station, indeed in my view one of the best in the country, provided you can avoid 13/14.

 

[Ken H]

Wonder why the OP didn't mention Bradford as it has 2 stations. And good services to Leeds from both. And from Bradford, for many many places its really train to Leeds and change. But I prefer Forster Sq. Pity it has moved so far north tho.

 

[Senex]

To some of us who remember the expansive, spacious layout of the Victoria/Exchange complex even in its very shabby and run-down latter days the present Victoria heavy-rail station is a disaster. Designed purely for the needs of the time and construction and with no thought of even passive provision for greater needs, it is a disgrace for a major city — a sort of poverty-stricken man's version of Birmingham New Street. Its only saving grace in Manchester is that it is not the worst main-line station: Piccadilly 13 and 14 and Oxford Road are both very much nastier than Victoria. Piccadilly proper is indeed an excellent station, and was even better before the barrier-line was put back in. Its only drawback is that in comparison with Birmingham, Leeds, Edinburgh, or the Glasgow stations it is not as central as it might have been.

 

[Neptune]

Vic on the outside and Pic on the inside.

The entrance to Man Vic is truly wonderful but once inside it changes. Yes there’s the map, the wooden ticket windows and the lovely old building in general and the new overall roof has improved the ambience over the war torn wreck that was in place before but once under the arena (mainly p5&6) it’s miserable. At least there’s some daylight into p3&4. I do like the Java coffee shop there and it is well placed for the city centre.

I also don’t buy into all this how wonderful Vic was before the arena. It was a run down dump with crumbling platforms, a dirty subway and leaking roof and canopies.

Man Pic has the feeling of walking up to a shopping centre entrance and is quite underwhelming but once inside I think they did a great job of making it ‘more than just a station’. I like the balcony (same at Kings Cross) and the terminal platforms are so nice and light since the roof was refurbished around 20 years ago. 13&14 though are a nightmare and to be avoided at all costs.

The OP also asked which Manchester and London station do you think of first. I would say Man Vic (always the one to arrive in from Bradford) and Kings Cross (always the one to arrive in from Leeds as the MML services take too long).

Wonder why the OP didn't mention Bradford as it has 2 stations. And good services to Leeds from both. And from Bradford, for many many places its really train to Leeds and change. But I prefer Forster Sq. Pity it has moved so far north tho.

As a Bradfordian I’d say Interchange and that isn’t saying much. Forster Square is the most depressing place on earth and Interchange is ok at best. They both sum up the current state of Bradford. An embarrassment. When people ask where I live then I say near Leeds to save face. (6 miles from Bradford, 15 miles from Leeds to be precise).

 

[YorksLad12]

Are you thinking of Mayfield, which closed to passengers after the western electrification but remained in use for parcels for quite a number of years - with the goods bridge over to the Post Office building on the eastern side of the layout (which ended up with "farting" in the windows before it was repurposed again)? I suspect you are.

EDIT per Wikipedia: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Mayfield_railway_station)

...and for many months if not years someone modified the "k" in "karting" to be an "f"

I went to a meal there (Mayfield) a couple of years ago and now the site is being repurposed which is good news.

No - I was indeed thinking of Piccadilly (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Piccadilly_station). The Railway Clearing House diagram shows two adjacent stations for the London & North Western and Great Central (main shed) and the Manchester, South Junction and Altrincham now (platforms 13 & 14). Good to see something happening with Mayfield though.

 

[BrianW]

Fascinating thread you have started Phillip. It goes to show the value of 'it all depends' in people's answers (and so also how people creating 'consultations' can slant the 'answers').
Arrival stations will be determined by where a person lives; and where a person works similarly by its proximity or accessibility- so not a lot of choice often. And that's also likely to influence changes of jobs and home moves. I've certainly changed train times in order to avoid busy-ness (ie got up earlier, left work later) and changed before the terminus (eg Vauxhall) 'incoming' but departed from terminus for a seat. People get 'smarter' with experience.

 

[S&CLER]

To some of us who remember the expansive, spacious layout of the Victoria/Exchange complex even in its very shabby and run-down latter days the present Victoria heavy-rail station is a disaster. Designed purely for the needs of the time and construction and with no thought of even passive provision for greater needs, it is a disgrace for a major city — a sort of poverty-stricken man's version of Birmingham New Street. Its only saving grace in Manchester is that it is not the worst main-line station: Piccadilly 13 and 14 and Oxford Road are both very much nastier than Victoria. Piccadilly proper is indeed an excellent station, and was even better before the barrier-line was put back in. Its only drawback is that in comparison with Birmingham, Leeds, Edinburgh, or the Glasgow stations it is not as central as it might have been.

As a railway historian, did you ever see a visualisation of the idea of a "Trinity" station which was floated after the war, to replace Exchange, Victoria and Salford Central, with a new connection from the CLC across bomb-damaged and slum-cleared land, to take some traffic from Central as well? I've heard of it but never seen an artist's impression of what it would have looked like, and wonder if one was ever produced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Vic on the outside and Pic on the inside.

The entrance to Man Vic is truly wonderful but once inside it changes. Yes there’s the map, the wooden ticket windows and the lovely old building in general and the new overall roof has improved the ambience over the war torn wreck that was in place before but once under the arena (mainly p5&6) it’s miserable. At least there’s some daylight into p3&4. I do like the Java coffee shop there and it is well placed for the city centre.

I also don’t buy into all this how wonderful Vic was before the arena. It was a run down dump with crumbling platforms, a dirty subway and leaking roof and canopies.

I think Vic was sort-of-OK when first refurbished (and post-Windsor Link, I forget which was done first), it only had to handle small numbers of passengers in a smallish number of 2-car DMUs. It was in essence a posher above-ground Liverpool Central, and felt a nice combination of old and (then) modern.

It is woefully inadequate for what now operates, and the newer Arena footbridge and ticket barrier lines are an utter blight. It's also been allowed to get dirty and run-down, while the DMUs are larger in number/length and have aged somewhat so seem to kick out more filth than they did.

 

[BrianW]

I think Vic was sort-of-OK when first refurbished (and post-Windsor Link, I forget which was done first), it only had to handle small numbers of passengers in a smallish number of 2-car DMUs. It was in essence a posher above-ground Liverpool Central, and felt a nice combination of old and (then) modern.

It is woefully inadequate for what now operates, and the newer Arena footbridge and ticket barrier lines are an utter blight. It's also been allowed to get dirty and run-down, while the DMUs are larger in number/length and have aged somewhat so seem to kick out more filth than they did.

Agreed. Some stats from the ORR:

Estimates of station usage | ORR Data Portal

Oxford Road 2008-9 5.0M 2018-9 9.3M
Piccadilly 20.1M 32.2M
Victoria 5.8M 9.6M

That's quite a lot more 'stress' than might have been, or even imagined 'back in the day'.

 

[Neptune]

I think Vic was sort-of-OK when first refurbished (and post-Windsor Link, I forget which was done first), it only had to handle small numbers of passengers in a smallish number of 2-car DMUs. It was in essence a posher above-ground Liverpool Central, and felt a nice combination of old and (then) modern.

It is woefully inadequate for what now operates, and the newer Arena footbridge and ticket barrier lines are an utter blight. It's also been allowed to get dirty and run-down, while the DMUs are larger in number/length and have aged somewhat so seem to kick out more filth than they did.

It’s certainly a lot more cluttered now they’ve put that unsightly arena bridge in. I agree that the arena should not impact on the station so there should be no internal entrance/exit. Poor design. The ticket barrier probably wouldn’t be so bad if that bridge wasn’t there. It needed to be located there to prevent issues with overcrowding from either side in the peaks.

Vic has totally outgrown itself in the last 10 years or so and especially since TPE started running regularly through there. The lack of provision for extending northwards or allowing at least 1 west facing bay show that the current levels of service were never foreseen when it was rebuilt 30 years ago.

 

[HSP 2]

No - I was indeed thinking of Piccadilly (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Piccadilly_station). The Railway Clearing House diagram shows two adjacent stations for the London & North Western and Great Central (main shed) and the Manchester, South Junction and Altrincham now (platforms 13 & 14). Good to see something happening with Mayfield though.

That just sound like Pic was before the 1500 v DC line were closed, with platforms 1 & 2 (+maybe 3 & 4) used for the DC lines so not a lot of change in that map.

 

[Senex]

As a railway historian, did you ever see a visualisation of the idea of a "Trinity" station which was floated after the war, to replace Exchange, Victoria and Salford Central, with a new connection from the CLC across bomb-damaged and slum-cleared land, to take some traffic from Central as well? I've heard of it but never seen an artist's impression of what it would have looked like, and wonder if one was ever produced.

No, I've never seen a visualisation of Trinity — only the sketch-maps shewing where it would have gone. I wonder if anything beyond the sketch-map stage was ever done and if there are indeed any visualisations anywhere. There are certainly enough such things for other places and in other countries, but for Manchester?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s certainly a lot more cluttered now they’ve put that unsightly arena bridge in. I agree that the arena should not impact on the station so there should be no internal entrance/exit. Poor design.

Yes, it was fine when first built and it was just an extension of the footbridge carrying smallish numbers of people - it now needs to be moved outside. That would help the Arena with enough space to enhance its security arrangement without impinging on the station, too.

 

[Neptune]

Yes, it was fine when first built and it was just an extension of the footbridge carrying smallish numbers of people - it now needs to be moved outside. That would help the Arena with enough space to enhance its security arrangement without impinging on the station, too.

I just wish Vic had been rebuilt with the safety net in place for future expanded services. I guess all the uncertainty with privatisation looming in the early 90’s meant doing the work that was required and nothing more.

 

[Ianno87]

I just wish Vic had been rebuilt with the safety net in place for future expanded services. I guess all the uncertainty with privatisation looming in the early 90’s meant doing the work that was required and nothing more.

That, and the early 90s was just a picture of downsizing of regional services and simplification, with little future vision for the railway.

Re-watch Victoria Wood's Great Railway Journeys episode (filmed 1995 - occasionally appears on YouTube) which is eye-opening for how little a future people thought the railway had around that time.

 

[Ken H]

That, and the early 90s was just a picture of downsizing of regional services and simplification, with little future vision for the railway.

Re-watch Victoria Wood's Great Railway Journeys episode (filmed 1995 - occasionally appears on YouTube) which is eye-opening for how little a future people thought the railway had around that time.

The pre-arena Victoria had been in a dreadful state since it was bombed in WW2

 

[Ianno87]

The pre-arena Victoria had been in a dreadful state since it was bombed in WW2

Yes, I could certainly imagine that something needed to be done regardless to bring the station up to scratch. And do this by spending the least amount of money possible / maximising the value of land sold.

 

[Purple Orange]

To answer the question, I’ll vote for Piccadilly - it is a far better statio. Having been using Victoria a little more recently, my main gripe is that it only has 4 through platforms, but I do like the new concourse. Victoria is not a big station anymore - it’s a medium sized regional/commuter station, living in the shell of it’s former self. Long term it can’t carry on as the principal station for Leeds fasts to the airport, but as a commuter station it is fine.

When I think of stations in London & Manchester, Oxford Road, Salford Central & Deansgate comes to mind just as much as Victoria or Piccadilly. In London, I equally think of St Pancras, Victoria & Paddington. Euston I cant stand.

 

[flixtonman]

Manchester Piccadilly has a buzz about it, and a 'city gateway' feel to it. Manchester Victoria has neither. Manchester Oxford Road and Deansgate Stations have historical and architectural charm, and mean a lot to many mancunians.

 

[Purple Orange]

Manchester Piccadilly has a buzz about it, and a 'city gateway' feel to it. Manchester Victoria has neither. Manchester Oxford Road and Deansgate Stations have historical and architectural charm, and mean a lot to many mancunians.

Victoria doesn’t have architectural charm? Have you looked at Victoria?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As others have said, it depends what I'm going to Manchester for. If I'm shopping or socialising then Victoria is better placed for the main commercial centre, but if I'm making an onward journey then obviously Piccadilly is where I need. I'll avoid the TPE fasts that use the Ordsall Chord in that case, as P13 & 14 are atrocious. For most concert venues I tend to visit (the Ritz or the Uni) Oxford Road is the one to go for.

Piccadilly definitely feels more like a major city station, and is much improved from what it was like in the mid-1990s. The tram being in the undercroft makes it feel more like a German city than a northern English one. Victoria has its charm, but is somewhat down-at-heel by comparison, and the Arena makes a bad situation worse.

 

[flixtonman]

Victoria doesn’t have architectural charm? Have you looked at Victoria?

I know what you mean by your question: Manchester Victoria has loads of historical and architectural charm in terms of its frontage, tiled map and wooden-faced ticket offices, but has no 'buzz' or 'city gateway' feel to it - that was the point of my message.

 

[xotGD]

Both stations have pleasant bay platforms and unpleasant through platforms.

However my main complaint is the distance between the two. Especially with a tight connection in the hot weather!

 

[Purple Orange]

Both stations have pleasant bay platforms and unpleasant through platforms.

However my main complaint is the distance between the two. Especially with a tight connection in the hot weather!

Yeah it’s just a bit too far to walk in any decent time and the tram is too slow.

 

[childwallblues]

From my local station at Broad Green we went into Manchester Exchange sadly no longer with us. These days I prefer Victoria and tend to use the odd stoppers to there rather than the hourly Piccadilly service

 

[plugwash]

And slightly differing from the theme, but when you think of Manchester and London mainline stations, which station in each city first comes to your mind?

I would say Piccadilly is still very much the main long distance station in central Manchester with trains going all over the country. Afaik Picadilly gets

* All of the services to London
* All of the services to Birmingham and beyond
* All of the services to Sheffield and beyond
* Most of the services to Preston (IIRC I found one train a day from victoria)
* All of the services to Scotland via the WCML (victoria gets some services to Scotland via the ECML in normal times, but this seems to be down to 1 train a day at the moment)
* All the services to wales
* About half the services to Liverpool (with victoria getting less than half)
* About the same number of fast services to Leeds as Victoria (though vic also gets slow services, so it gets more services to leeds in total)

Whereas when I look for cities that can be reached directly from Victoria but Not piccadilly I don't find much. Bradford and Newcastle seem to be the main two.

When I think of London, I think of a place where I will almost certainly have to walk between two stations or use the tube because it doesn't have a main station.

 

[Purple Orange]

I would say Piccadilly is still very much the main long distance station in central Manchester with trains going all over the country. Afaik Picadilly gets

* All of the services to London
* All of the services to Birmingham and beyond
* All of the services to Sheffield and beyond
* Most of the services to Preston (IIRC I found one train a day from victoria)
* All of the services to Scotland via the WCML (victoria gets some services to Scotland via the ECML in normal times, but this seems to be down to 1 train a day at the moment)
* All the services to wales
* About half the services to Liverpool (with victoria getting less than half)
* About the same number of fast services to Leeds as Victoria (though vic also gets slow services, so it gets more services to leeds in total)

Whereas when I look for cities that can be reached directly from Victoria but Not piccadilly I don't find much. Bradford and Newcastle seem to be the main two.

When I think of London, I think of a place where I will almost certainly have to walk between two stations or use the tube because it doesn't have a main station.

The trouble with Piccadilly having all of those services is the fact that it requires the use of Castlefield, which is inappropriate for long distance services. The Wales services all need to congregate at Victoria, as do the Scotland services.

 

[Senex]

The trouble with Piccadilly having all of those services is the fact that it requires the use of Castlefield, which is inappropriate for long distance services. The Wales services all need to congregate at Victoria, as do the Scotland services.

But a major part of the justification for the OrdsallChord was precisely to get long-distance services to the west side of Piccadilly without either continuing to cross the whole Piccadilly layout on the level or building the alternatively-proposed Ardwick flyover. Castlefield was not justified as a locals-only investment. There could be a nice devil's advocate argument that Castlefield should be used exclusively for the long-distance services, with other arrangements being made to terminate all locals before they get on to the junction line.

 

[Mat17]

A hard question really as I don't have a choice of stations generally.

If travelling from Sheffield, then Piccadilly is the only option (or Oxford Road if going out towards the museum). I have travelled from Huddersfield though, but some time back. When the TPE services all went via Piccadilly and the stopper from Wakefield went to Victoria. The choice there was the fast (but packed) train to Picc, or the slow trudge on a 150, all stops to Vic.

The only other time I use Vic is to get to Bury.

I think Piccadilly is the nicer station (like Leeds done right), but I hate the long walk down Piccadilly itself to get to the city centre, too many roads, too many down and outs to pass by. It makes the whole city feel run down.

The walk from Victoria is much better, but I always end up getting lost, as I don't use Victoria enough.

The Victorian surviving parts of Victoria are nice, like Birmingham Moor Street.

 

[Purple Orange]

But a major part of the justification for the OrdsallChord was precisely to get long-distance services to the west side of Piccadilly without either continuing to cross the whole Piccadilly layout on the level or building the alternatively-proposed Ardwick flyover. Castlefield was not justified as a locals-only investment. There could be a nice devil's advocate argument that Castlefield should be used exclusively for the long-distance services, with other arrangements being made to terminate all locals before they get on to the junction line.

No it wasn’t justified as a local only route, but it’s not working as a long distance one.