Falcon1200
Established Member
In the old days (pre Windsor Link) the Scotland services did all use Victoria, but as they are now almost entirely to and from Manchester Airport that is no longer an option.
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Manchester Victoria or Manchester Piccadilly
- Thread starter Philip
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In the old days (pre Windsor Link) the Scotland services did all use Victoria, but as they are now almost entirely to and from Manchester Airport that is no longer an option.
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And there I'd agree with you completely. The utter idiocy of taking just one part of a multi-part coherent scheme not even as a clear Phase 1 of a phased whole but as a completely free-standing project and then failing to proceed with the rest! So we're left with the fine, up-to-date Piccadilly 1-12 for the London and South Coast trains and a fine, well-restored tram station with tack-on railway slum for the east-west main line.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
Manchester appears to be heading for a 3 tier rail system. In fact it already has that, but I think it will be exasperated without NPR.
- Piccadilly P1-12 and HS2 (long distance only)
- Metrolink
- East-West and North rail services of all kinds plus commuter rail south from Piccadilly.
ian1944
Member
It's many years since I used any Manchester station regularly, and then it was usually Oxford Road when the Altrincham trains terminated there. What I always liked about Victoria was the feeling of style, and I had a particular fondness for the big L & Y tiled map and the ambience of the gents, this being reminiscent of the same in the Town Hall and, among others, Bolton Town Hall. I suspect that Victoria's toilet ambience has long gone.
Oh, my, yes.
Bevan Price
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Travelling from the St. Helens area, I prefer Manchester Victoria - it is more convenient for the city centre -- although if connecting onto Metrolink, Deansgate is even better. The problem with Piccadilly is that our trains can only use the inconvenient Platforms 13 & 14, although it is the best station for onward connections to Hope Valley, Buxton, Sheffield, etc.
Oxford Road is inconvenient for much of the city centre; it would have been useful many years ago when I was at Manchester University - but there were no services from St. Helens at that time.
For me, the now closed Manchester Exchange was even better. It had easy (but a bit long) connections to Victoria, walking along Platform 11 Middle, and was slightly closer to the city centre than Victoria. The original Victoria was neglected and in poor condition , but the platform layout was much better than what we have now - 6 through platform roads. At the current Victoria, Platforms 1&2, and the Metrolink platforms are fine, but - particularly Platforms 4 - 6 are dark, gloomy, poorly lit, and unwelcoming.
Piccadilly Platforms 1 to 12 were fine, but have been spoiled by fitting barriers. It makes it less convenient for changing between trains, and the concourse area has become much more draughty due to open spaces above the barriers.
Manchester Central was a nice station, but anything but central for the city centre -- perhaps only really convenient for the areas round the city hall and one end of the Deansgate shops. Also, by the early 1960s, it always seemed a bit bigger than was really necessary.
As for London stations, Euston is the one I first think about, as it is the one served by the WCML. Unfortunately, I also think that at platform level, it is a gloomy depressing hole, and the concourse area is congested and poorly designed. Of the other London termini, since I worked in London many years ago, I only use them very occasionally. I used to like Paddington, Kings Cross & Waterloo best. St. Pancras used to be O.K., but the domestic side seems a bit of a mess since the real side was converted to "International". And Liverpool Street was not "improved" by rebuilding.
Oxford Road is inconvenient for much of the city centre; it would have been useful many years ago when I was at Manchester University - but there were no services from St. Helens at that time.
For me, the now closed Manchester Exchange was even better. It had easy (but a bit long) connections to Victoria, walking along Platform 11 Middle, and was slightly closer to the city centre than Victoria. The original Victoria was neglected and in poor condition , but the platform layout was much better than what we have now - 6 through platform roads. At the current Victoria, Platforms 1&2, and the Metrolink platforms are fine, but - particularly Platforms 4 - 6 are dark, gloomy, poorly lit, and unwelcoming.
Piccadilly Platforms 1 to 12 were fine, but have been spoiled by fitting barriers. It makes it less convenient for changing between trains, and the concourse area has become much more draughty due to open spaces above the barriers.
Manchester Central was a nice station, but anything but central for the city centre -- perhaps only really convenient for the areas round the city hall and one end of the Deansgate shops. Also, by the early 1960s, it always seemed a bit bigger than was really necessary.
As for London stations, Euston is the one I first think about, as it is the one served by the WCML. Unfortunately, I also think that at platform level, it is a gloomy depressing hole, and the concourse area is congested and poorly designed. Of the other London termini, since I worked in London many years ago, I only use them very occasionally. I used to like Paddington, Kings Cross & Waterloo best. St. Pancras used to be O.K., but the domestic side seems a bit of a mess since the real side was converted to "International". And Liverpool Street was not "improved" by rebuilding.
Is there any scope whatsoever for reinstating a few west-facing bays at Vic? (e.g.lose a bit of the arena car-park).
It'd potentially transform the usefulness of Vic.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
There is potential for doing so, but it depends what those platforms could be used for. The arena car park is at the eastern end of the station so that can’t help with the situation.
Essential Castlefield needs all the TPE, Wales and EMR services removed. Any infrastructure that does that is welcome.
Philip
On Moderation
Are you suggesting that the EMR service should avoid Piccadilly and run via Denton from Victoria to reach Stockport?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That would be one option, another would be truncating it to Picc main trainshed and making all CLC services Northern semifasts at a higher frequency than at present.
Philip
On Moderation
Would it be wise to cut the direct link between Sheffield and Liverpool though?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There are no perfect answers.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
No, but the CLC should be wired ASAP. All the way to Sheffield if possible!
TheGrew
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I'm the same as this coming from Newton-le-Willows I considerably prefer Victoria, in my experience I am far more likely during rush hour to be held short of Deansgate (often for 3-5 minutes) whereas I rarely get stopped going into Victoria. Off peak it is generally dependant on where in Manchester I want to go.
With the TPE traction change (185s->802s) the capacity improvement is considerable and results in a more comfortable journey. In addition the new Leeds-Chester service also tends to be quieter.
Coming home I would either use Victoria or go to Piccadilly platform 14 as trying to get on a crowded service at Oxford Road is a waste of time.
The one change I would like to see is the re-opening of the Salford Central platforms but I believe there are signal positioning issues to overcome to allow that.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
No. I’m suggesting there should be infrastructure delivered to enable TPE, TfW and EMR to be removed from Castlefield, even to the point of terminating the service at Piccadilly given the low numbers of people who do the Sheffield-Liverpool journey. Running via Denton is a complete non starter.
Is it impossible to create a 10 min connection at Piccadilly? Would that be a 'killer'? Do we know how many? Do we know current reliablity of journey times? Just askin'What about those who have "built their lives" around that link?
mike57
Established Member
Manchester Piccadilly wins hands down even with the overcrowded horror that is platform 13&14. Manchester Victoria is dirty, dark, overcrowded and full of fumes. Connections between the two are also a problem, 1tph currently on the Ordsal Chord, 2tph pre covid, or a tram ride that requires a separate ticket.
Use the Ordsal chord for local services if you must or (whispers...) Pull it down and weigh it in for scrap
I think the TPE solution would be to terminate all TPE north trains bar 1 Liverpool via Vic per hour into the low numbered platforms at Piccadilly, looking at it there may even be space for a 'Platform 0'. Manchester airport can then be served by an increase in Pic - Airport shuttles.
Use the Ordsal chord for local services if you must or (whispers...) Pull it down and weigh it in for scrap
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
What about those who have "built their lives" around that link?
This thread isn't really the place for a discussion about Southport, but you'll be well aware that the impact to a commuter service of a journey time extension is generally proportionally much greater (on the passengers) than the impact to a long-distance service. But faffing with the established Southport pattern is indeed another example of there not being a perfect solution.
Back onto the topic of the thread, I'd mind less about going to Vic if it wasn't such an utterly, utterly horrid station to use. I can barely think of anything good about it at all (OK, other than that fancy tiled map which is nice to look at). It manages to be the worst of both worlds between old and new, and even the new roof is a cheap bodge using plastic balloons that no doubt will only last a short time. To be fair Picc 13/14 is little better, but even with its relatively lacking facilities I'd take Oxford Road over Vic any day - it has its own charm and interest with the unusual buildings, and it really feels like being in a big city due to the tower blocks right up against it.
Redevelop Vic into a proper modern station with 6 or 8 through platforms of at least 240m under a decent glazed (not plastic) roof and a decent, modern food and shopping concourse* like Picc (getting rid of that rathole of an Arena - the new Eastlands one can take up the slack) and I'd hate it a lot less.
* You could actually do that now by putting a mezzanine over the top of the trams, though I'd rather bulldoze the lot and start again.
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Absoloutely, but a lot of people on here seem to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and break many journeys via manchester.
Yes they piled too much on the castlefield corridor in the last few years and some of that should probablly be reverted/diverted but that doesn't mean that connections that have existed for many years all need to be severed.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Not sure that only 'low numbers' travel between Sheffield and Liverpool; On the occasions I've used the service, while (of course) a lot alight and board at Piccadilly, quite a few are going through. These are two big Northern cities and surely deserve a direct link !
Yes the bit of Vic under the Arena is horrid. But the concourse by the tramstop is quite nice. Lovely overall roof. I sat for 45 minutes at a table by the glass screens by the tram track drinking a costa coffee before Covid.
But I bet its a draughty place to sit in winter....Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes the bit of Vic under the Arena is horrid. But the concourse by the tramstop is quite nice. Lovely overall roof. I sat for 45 minutes at a table by the glass screens by the tram track drinking a costa coffee before Covid.
I don't like any of it, to be honest. The new roof looks cheap, being made of plastic bubbles instead of proper glass. And there is no actual concourse, the circulation areas are quite small.
faltskog36abba
Member
A lot of the services into Victoria were severed 88/89 and were long established, We were told to change at Salford Crescent or Stalybridge /Newton -le -willows. TPE, Blackpool, Windermere/Barrow, N, Wales, Scotland. Castlefield line users are going to have to change somewhere along the way in order for the trains to fit.
Robertj21a
On Moderation
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No question about it, Victoria train platforms are terrible - dark, grim and thoroughly depressing. The tram platforms are much nicer but, overall, Piccadilly is far better.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
Well unfortunately that is the situation. Relatively few people travel through Manchester on that route.
johnnychips
Established Member
Anybody any stats we can look at for Liverpool to Sheffield traffic, or are we on anecdotes, whatever your opinion, on whether it should continue or be truncated?
Purple Orange
On Moderation
Page 36 in the link above shows you the proportion of rail usage between various cities.
It highlights that Manc-Leeds, Manc-Liverpool and Leeds-Sheffield are by far the biggest flows, with Manc-Sheffield 4th on that list by a distance, but Sheffield-Liverpool is the 10th most frequented city pair. Perhaps this demonstrates that 1 tph between Liverpool & Leeds and Liverpool & Sheffield will do, with the rest terminating in Manchester.
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johnnychips
Established Member
That gives you the number of daily commuters and doesn’t seem to give any overall numbers. However, I do appreciate your quick reply.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Isn't 1 tph between Liverpool and Sheffield the current service ? And if it no longer ran it would be 0 tph !
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