Replace the national anthem?

[ainsworth74]

I get the impression that some people would like us to abolish the national anthem altogether.

I wouldn't say getting rid of the national anthem is a good idea* but I do think we can do better than what we've got! England doesn't have it's own national anthem at all as it just uses the same one as the United Kingdom which is surely slightly sub-optimal. Jerusalem would probably fit the bill fairly well, though Land of Hope and Glory might work quite well.

Plus I do think that God Save the Queen/King is just rubbish. I'm sorry but it is. It's little more than funeral dirge when it comes to the tune and I do think it's a fair cop that it is quite religious about a Christian god when it is quite likely that a plurality of Brits are non-religious and Christianity might be the most popular but is no longer the majority of people's belief. Census 2011 suggests that 59% of Brits are Christian whilst 25% have no religion. But surveys since then suggest that things have changed. For instance the British Social Attitudes survey suggested in 2018 that 52% had no religion and 38% were Christian. Is a national anthem features quite a lot of god really representative of it's people? Particularly when you add in those who worship a different god to the Christian one!

I'm not really fussed about the monarchy bit of the equation. We are still a monarchy (a constitutional one to be sure rather than absolute) and there isn't much evidence to suggest there's a strong groundswell of opinion that we should become a republic (though I do wonder how that will change when the Queen dies). Polling I think usually puts it somewhere between 60 - 70% in favour of keeping the monarchy with somewhere around 25% in favour of replacement.

But in any case my main complaint remains it's just such an awful tune. If anyone could find a more upbeat tune to set the existing (or slightly tweaked) lyrics to then that would at a stroke be a massive improvement.

*Do many people? There are certainly some happy clappy types who say we should all live in harmony as one big human bubble, but they're pretty fringe!

 

[najaB]

The Queen is not stopping us from moving into the modern world, whatever that is.

Indeed. It's the current government that seems intent on dragging us back to the 19th century! (I'm looking at you JRM!)

 

[pdeaves]

I think the massive hoo-ha that would arise from making a change would probably outweigh any issues of keeping as-is.

 

[duncombec]

I wonder how many people who complain that God Save the King/Queen (aren't there rules on explaining acronyms...) is a "dirge" know it was artificially slowed by George V for formal purposes? Having heard the version being used at the Olympics three times this morning, it's positively upbeat! It's not bad played on an organ either when the organist is feeling a bit of flair. It's not only the orchestration, but whoever is singing: it's very different hearing a full cathedral on Remembrance Sunday making an effort versus a bunch of people mumbling through the words they didn't bother to learn whilst looking at their feet.

As for God... it may have been written as a Christian-orientated piece, but what's to know there aren't many adherents of other religions who are happy to consider the reference to "God" as a reference to their own deity? That argument seems a bit of a red herring, especially when the two common favourites (Jerusalem and I vow to Thee) are outright hymns... I've also heard Jerusalem and I Vow to Thee sung sung terribly when people don't make the effort.

Compare the screeching, caterwauling, single-singer versions of the Star-Spangled Banner at sporting events versus one sung by a choir (I heartily recommend the Kentucky all-state choir in hotel lobby versions on Youtube): I know which one I'd consider more uplifting and representative.

Upshot: It ain't the anthem that's the problem, it's lazy singing/orchestration.

 

[Neptune]

Watching the Euro’s and any other sport, shows up what a dreary song it is compared to other nations.

Bill Bailey’s new anthem would get my vote.

 

[PeterC]

Upshot: It ain't the anthem that's the problem, it's lazy singing/orchestration.

I agree with that entirely. There is a very nice baroque tune hidden under the modern orchestration.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The national anthem represents our national heritage and historical culture. The lyrics presumably reflected our values at the time they were written, and that's fine, and that's the sense in which they should be understood.

Values change all the time. If you insist that the national anthem has to reflect today's values and has to have the kind of lyrics that you'd write today, you'd probably find you'd have to write a new song every 10-20 years.

The tune is a matter of taste. Personally, I like it. You're never going to get a tune that everyone likes.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The national anthem represents our national heritage and historical culture.

I'm not convinced that asking god to save our monarch really says that much about heritage or historical culture to be honest!
Don't get me wrong, I am not so convinced it needs to be changed and in a way I don't see it as something that I have a right to feel much about anyway (I'm a Welsh nationalist and given the national anthems dual use as the English and British anthem, I've never felt it represented me anyway so I don't feel any ownership of it). But suggesting it represents British heritage, history and culture is a bit of a stretch to me, especially given how much more genuinely interesting and inspiring history and culture we do have!

 

[Falcon1200]

I don't have a problem with God Save the Queen (and I say that as someone who is not particularly religious or royalist), but I do wish England had its own national anthem, rather than using God Save the Queen at sporting events etc, like the other UK nations do.

Jerusalem would be the perfect candidate for a specifically English anthem.

Agree with both 100%; As an Englishman living in Scotland I dislike the National Anthem being appropriated for purely English occasions.

God Save the Queen/King is just rubbish. I'm sorry but it is. It's little more than funeral dirge when it comes to the tune

At least it's not as bad as Flower of Scotland, not exactly a foot-tapper or sing-alonger......

 

[High Dyke]

I am quite happy with the national anthem but suggest we change it to the Sex Pistols version.

Curses! No like button.

 

[prod_pep]

Plus I do think that God Save the Queen/King is just rubbish. I'm sorry but it is. It's little more than funeral dirge when it comes to the tune and I do think it's a fair cop that it is quite religious about a Christian god when it is quite likely that a plurality of Brits are non-religious and Christianity might be the most popular but is no longer the majority of people's belief. Census 2011 suggests that 59% of Brits are Christian whilst 25% have no religion. But surveys since then suggest that things have changed. For instance the British Social Attitudes survey suggested in 2018 that 52% had no religion and 38% were Christian. Is a national anthem features quite a lot of god really representative of it's people? Particularly when you add in those who worship a different god to the Christian one!

Yes, I do agree. Christianity is always over-represented on Census forms as it is the go-to option for some people who were baptised, whether or not they believe in God. My late gran filled in the 2011 Census forms on our behalf (we were moving house at the time IIRC) and she put me down as Christian. I'm an ardent atheist so it's fair to say I wasn't impressed. I handle a lot of personal data at work and it's similarly common for people on equality and diversity forms to opt for Christian despite evidently not being religious when you meet them.

I'd certainly say the Social Attitudes survey you quote is a lot closer to reality, although I doubt even 38% of the population are Christian. It will be interesting to see how big a drop there is in 2021.

As for 'God Save the Queen': it's dire. As someone neither religious nor in favour of the Royal Family, it's hard to appreciate the content, although it's just a flat anthem regardless. I'm biased but I love the Welsh anthem and the Euro 2020 final really showed how superior the Italian anthem is to God Save the Queen. The way their players and fans belt it out is brilliantly stirring.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

As someone who is agnostic (raised Christian) and a Monarchist, God Save the Queen is fine for me.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Rule Britannia. It's the only option.

 

[najaB]

Rule Britannia. It's the only option.

Again, Rule Britannia is very... err "pink bits on a map".

 

[LOL The Irony]

Again, Rule Britannia is very... err "pink bits on a map".

In the words of Jeremy Clarkson, Oh no! Anyway...

My argument is I vow to thee my country too "hymny" and Jerusalem is in Israel (and isn't as good as Rule Britannia). Rule Britannia is a song that screams power (like all national anthems should, frankly).

 

[GusB]

Rule Britannia is a song that screams power (like all national anthems should, frankly).

No, it screams "Empire", which we no longer have!

If the national anthem was to be changed, it should be an entirely new commission and not something that harps back to the days when we plundered much of the world.

 

[LOL The Irony]

No, it screams "Empire", which we no longer have!

Oh dear, such a shame.

If the national anthem was to be changed, it should be an entirely new commission

No because it'd be crap.

 

[Bevan Price]

I see no need to change, but sometimes it could be played with a bit more "life".

If we were ever to change, and assuming it has to be basically "classical music", I might suggest an extract (a minute or so) from the start of Elgar's "Pomp & Circumstance No. 5" march:

Rule Britannia & Jerusalem are historically out of date - we no longer rule the world, or anything more than a small fraction of it, and suitable only from people living in the past.

 

[najaB]

Rule Britannia & Jerusalem are historically out of date - we no longer rule the world, or anything more than a small fraction of it, and suitable only from people living in the past.

Indeed. The sooner that people come to terms with reality - that we're one and a quarter little islands at the edge of Europe who had a good run for a while and punched way above our weight - the better.

 

[AlterEgo]

Rule Britannia & Jerusalem are historically out of date - we no longer rule the world, or anything more than a small fraction of it, and suitable only from people living in the past.

Jerusalem isn't about ruling the world, it's definitively introspective, hinting at the beautiful country we have inherited, so wonderful that perhaps Jesus had travelled here in the past to bless the place in person. It is a wonderful hymn, with an explicit calling to improve society, and perfectly fitting for a country basking in the afterglow of Christianity, and I say this as an atheist.

 

[GusB]

Jerusalem isn't about ruling the world, it's definitively introspective, hinting at the beautiful country we have inherited, so wonderful that perhaps Jesus had travelled here in the past to bless the place in person. It is a wonderful hymn, with an explicit calling to improve society, and perfectly fitting for a country basking in the afterglow of Christianity, and I say this as an atheist.

However, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, it's entirely unsuitable as a national anthem for the UK.

 

[AlterEgo]

However, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, it's entirely unsuitable as a national anthem for the UK.

There isn't anything that suits the entire of the UK to pander to everyone's sensibilities; it's a country of a maelstrom of languages and traditions and has been for a couple of hundred years or more. God Save The Queen is what we have; as terrible a piece of music as it is, I can't think of a song everyone would get behind.

 

[GusB]

There isn't anything that suits the entire of the UK to pander to everyone's sensibilities; it's a country of a maelstrom of languages and traditions and has been for a couple of hundred years or more. God Save The Queen is what we have; as terrible a piece of music as it is, I can't think of a song everyone would get behind.

My earlier point was that any new national anthem should be written from scratch. Surely someone could come up with something that represents all the constituent parts of the UK. God Save the Queen isn't entirely representative of the whole of the UK either. While the last verse isn't actually sung, it's still part of the song.

UK's National Anthem - God Save The Queen lyrics | LyricsFreak

www.lyricsfreak.com

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition hush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the King

Incidentally, when I put "God save the Queen lyrics" into Bing, the first thing it came up with was the Sex Pistols' version!

 

[AlterEgo]

My earlier point was that any new national anthem should be written from scratch. Surely someone could come up with something that represents all the constituent parts of the UK.

What sort of things would the song have in it? The UK is a coalition of traditions which don't have a single theme or rallying point other than the Head of State.

 

[Domh245]

What sort of things would the song have in it? The UK is a coalition of traditions which don't have a single theme or rallying point other than the Head of State.

You could always go for the Spanish* approach and have no lyrics!

*or Sammarinese, Kosovan, or Bosnian and Herzegovinian

 

[najaB]

While the last verse isn't actually sung, it's still part of the song.

That depends on which version of the lyrics you go with. Verses have been added and removed over the years.

There is no authorised version of the National Anthem as the words are a matter of tradition. Additional verses have been added down the years, but these are rarely used.

National Anthem

The British National Anthem in its present form dates back to the eighteenth century. The words and tune are anonymous, and may date back to the seventeenth...

www.royal.uk

 

[Meerkat]

Thing is, though, Jerusalem (the place, not the tune) isn't English or British (depending on which nation(s) you mean).

Irrelevant. As the song refers to building Jerusalem here it clearly refers to Jerusalem as a concept of ‘a better place’ rather than a literal place. And Jerusalem is important to several religions so it’s religious angle is unlikely to offend (I am a staunch atheist btw)
Jerusalem should be the English anthem as it mentions England (and it has a big finish so we can take on the Italians!). If the first two verses are too religious maybe just have an rousing lyric free arrangement as a lead in (like the Italians) and just belt out the last two verses.

As for GSTQ being a dirge - that is only the formal version, it is anything but when belted out by a stadium full of fans.
The lyrics are anachronistic but to change anthems would probably be a move from something most like/tolerate to something no one likes following a bitter culture war about the type of music and lyrics. It’s best not to open that can of worms. Just let a minority carry on complaining about it - I get the feeling they quite enjoy the pride they have in their disdain!

 

[WAB]

Simple.

Jerusalem for England (using GSTQ is disrespectful to the other three nations imo)

I Vow to Thee my Country for the UK as a whole.

Neither are overly-imperial, and whilst there are religious references, they aren't too dominating.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Rule Britannia & Jerusalem are historically out of date - we no longer rule the world, or anything more than a small fraction of it, and suitable only from people living in the past.

Indeed. The sooner that people come to terms with reality - that we're one and a quarter little islands at the edge of Europe who had a good run for a while and punched way above our weight - the better.

I don't like Rule Britannia because of hurr durr British Empire, I like it because it's a powerful song and isn't brownnosing a figurehead.

Jerusalem for England

Ah yes, that famous English city of Jerusalem.

using GSTQ is disrespectful to the other three nations imo

I don't like God Save The Queen but how is its use in England disrespectful to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?

I Vow to Thee my Country for the UK as a whole.

This is a hymn, not an anthem.

 

[WAB]

I don't like Rule Britannia because of hurr durr British Empire, I like it because it's a powerful song and isn't brownnosing a figurehead.

It is still very imperialistic, which is no longer our position in the world, and is arrogant in the extreme.

Ah yes, that famous English city of Jerusalem.

......is there a point to this?

I don't like God Save The Queen but how is its use in England disrespectful to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?

Because of the implication that England=UK, and that England is the default rather than the UK being a union of equals.

This is a hymn, not an anthem.

It is still more lively than GSTQ, and it is already considered a patriotic hymm.