Manchester Victoria or Manchester Piccadilly

[Purple Orange]

That gives you the number of daily commuters and doesn’t seem to give any overall numbers. However, I do appreciate your quick reply.

I’d say it gives a good picture of the overall relationship between city pairs. Ideally you’d have through services, but where the infrastructure proves it to be difficult to maintain desired service levels, it seems wise to split services.

Isn't 1 tph between Liverpool and Sheffield the current service ? And if it no longer ran it would be 0 tph !

It’s meant to be 2 tph should the consultation go through, but maybe 0 tph is better!

 

[Falcon1200]

It’s meant to be 2 tph should the consultation go through, but maybe 0 tph is better!

I would agree 2 tph would be overkill, but 1 tph should remain !

 

[domcoop7]

Victoria has the most potential, but Piccadilly is currently the far better station.

But my memories in the early 90s were that both stations were dumps. Railtrack invested and upgraded Piccadilly IIRC sometime in the mid 1990s, before that the concourse was worse than Victoria (albeit bigger) with low ceilings, dingy environment and 1960s era ticket office buildings, etc. Then the platforms got done and more investment by Network Rail with the mezzanine and the shed roof. (Apart from 13 and 14). Victoria has the potential for a lot of improvement if the same amount of money were spent. Even some better lighting on the platforms would make a difference! Build a mezzanine level joined to the footbridge over the top of the bays and the metrolink to create more waiting and circulating space and attract the food shops, etc.

 

[mike57]

Well unfortunately that is the situation. Relatively few people travel through Manchester on that route.

But if you split it in Manchester where is the Liverpool part of the service going to terminate, because it comes via Warrington it has to come in via Castlefield, and it will end up being like North Wales trains that terminate at Pic, and have to shunt out of the way anyway, cant see how that will relieve the Castlefield congestion.

I think the money spent on the Ordsal Chord would have been better spent on the Castlefield corridor, 'Platform 15/16' at Pic and possibly an Ardwick flyover. I do realise we wouldnt have delivered all that within the Ordsal chord budget, so pick the option that has the most impact on current congestion. Current usage of the chord probably supports that, buts its too late now. Many on here predicted the problems, why didnt the planners, incompetance?

That would have maintained Pic as the main station, and Vic could have been left to fester as a local station, which infrastructure wise it is capable of being. As for the surroundings, well less passengers would have to suffer the dark dirty fume laden platforms.

 

[Purple Orange]

But if you split it in Manchester where is the Liverpool part of the service going to terminate, because it comes via Warrington it has to come in via Castlefield, and it will end up being like North Wales trains that terminate at Pic, and have to shunt out of the way anyway, cant see how that will relieve the Castlefield congestion.

I think the money spent on the Ordsal Chord would have been better spent on the Castlefield corridor, 'Platform 15/16' at Pic and possibly an Ardwick flyover. I do realise we wouldnt have delivered all that within the Ordsal chord budget, so pick the option that has the most impact on current congestion. Current usage of the chord probably supports that, buts its too late now. Many on here predicted the problems, why didnt the planners, incompetance?

That would have maintained Pic as the main station, and Vic could have been left to fester as a local station, which infrastructure wise it is capable of being. As for the surroundings, well less passengers would have to suffer the dark dirty fume laden platforms.

I’d seek something far more radical than the B+ consultation and refocus Castlefield as a route for the 4 CLC services from Liverpool, 4 services from Victoria (Whether they originate from the Stalybridge or Rochdale direction isn’t too important), and 4 from from the Bolton line run through to the airport. One TPE service from Hull runs through Victoria to Liverpool, plus the TPE Huddersfield services. The other TPE & EMR services are focussed on terminating at Piccadilly.

Regarding the chord, it’s not the planners but the government that are at fault here. P15&16 plus Oxford Rd and Salford Central remodelling was a part of the plan.

 

[hwl]

I’d seek something far more radical than the B+ consultation and refocus Castlefield as a route for the 4 CLC services from Liverpool, 4 services from Victoria (Whether they originate from the Stalybridge or Rochdale direction isn’t too important), and 4 from from the Bolton line run through to the airport. One TPE service from Hull runs through Victoria to Liverpool, plus the TPE Huddersfield services. The other TPE & EMR services are focussed on terminating at Piccadilly.

Regarding the chord, it’s not the planners but the government that are at fault here. P15&16 plus Oxford Rd and Salford Central remodelling was a part of the plan.

I suspect it will have needed more than P15&16 plus Oxford Rd and Salford Central but they would help greatly. My view is at at least 3 other measures in or around the corridor are needed.

Longer term the Liverpool - Manchester NPR route via the airport will reduce the CLC through to Airport demand.

One of the core issues is that rolling stock used on the corridor must be fit for high passenger churn and short dwell times (i.e. minimal use of end door rolling stock) and that the trains are long enough to cope with demand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the core issues is that rolling stock used on the corridor must be fit for high passenger churn and short dwell times (i.e. minimal use of end door rolling stock) and that the trains are long enough to cope with demand.

Fortunately classes 195 and 331 offer exactly that (despite offering a much higher comfort level than the 700s). If you standardised everything on 3 and 6-car formations (send the 4s elsewhere) you could even do stuff like mark the door positions on the platforms to speed things further.

 

[Purple Orange]

Fortunately classes 195 and 331 offer exactly that (despite offering a much higher comfort level than the 700s). If you standardised everything on 3 and 6-car formations (send the 4s elsewhere) you could even do stuff like mark the door positions on the platforms to speed things further.

Which in turn requires eliminating all long distance services from Oxford Rd. This is turning in to another “we need to talk about Castlefield” thread, but with discussions about Manchester infrastructure it can’t be ignored. It also requires defining what ‘long distance’ is or is not.

• TPE Nova 1 and 3 should terminate at Piccadilly main shed
• TPE Nova 2 should terminate at Victoria
• TfW should also run to Victoria
• TPE Hull and TPE Huddersfield (once joined back with the Leeds service) should run through through to Liverpool fast through Chat Moss.
• TPE Cleethorpes and EMR terminate at Piccadilly.
• All Southport services go to Victoria then Stalybridge

Castlefield:

• 4 tph Airport - Liverpool via CLC
• 4 tph Airport - Rochdale
• 2 tph Blackpool - Hazel Grove
• 1 Freight

Electrification is required.

 

[Philip]

No. I’m suggesting there should be infrastructure delivered to enable TPE, TfW and EMR to be removed from Castlefield, even to the point of terminating the service at Piccadilly given the low numbers of people who do the Sheffield-Liverpool journey. Running via Denton is a complete non starter.

Why is running via Denton a non-starter? Capacity isn't a problem on the Denton line itself, doubt a line speed upgrade would be too difficult. Heaton Norris Junction wouldn't be a big obstacle because trains wouldn't have to cross fast lines in order to access platform 0 at Stockport.

 

[Glenn1969]

Why is running via Denton a non-starter? Capacity isn't a problem on the Denton line itself, doubt a line speed upgrade would be too difficult. Heaton Norris Junction wouldn't be a big obstacle because trains wouldn't have to cross fast lines in order to access platform 0 at Stockport.

Because I thought there was zero space for extra services between Stockport and Piccadilly?

 

[Grumpy Git]

Because I thought there was zero space for extra services between Stockport and Piccadilly?

Widening the viaduct could be tricky!

 

[faltskog36abba]

Victoria has the most potential, but Piccadilly is currently the far better station.

But my memories in the early 90s were that both stations were dumps. Railtrack invested and upgraded Piccadilly IIRC sometime in the mid 1990s, before that the concourse was worse than Victoria (albeit bigger) with low ceilings, dingy environment and 1960s era ticket office buildings, etc. Then the platforms got done and more investment by Network Rail with the mezzanine and the shed roof. (Apart from 13 and 14). Victoria has the potential for a lot of improvement if the same amount of money were spent. Even some better lighting on the platforms would make a difference! Build a mezzanine level joined to the footbridge over the top of the bays and the metrolink to create more waiting and circulating space and attract the food shops, etc.

There was talk about having a Mezzanine level along the station Building around 20 years ago. Recession then hit and it was quietly dropped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was talk about having a Mezzanine level along the station Building around 20 years ago. Recession then hit and it was quietly dropped.

This would help quite a lot, as it could have a decent concourse provision upstairs (retail, food, TVMs etc) and feed directly onto the footbridge, dealing with the lack-of-space issue that it presently suffers. I don't know if there is the vertical clearance, but if there is a second footbridge extended from it would be great, which would mean you could have a one-way system with exit only via the current gateline and bridge, and entry upstairs (with escalators for ease of access).

 

[domcoop7]

This would help quite a lot, as it could have a decent concourse provision upstairs (retail, food, TVMs etc) and feed directly onto the footbridge, dealing with the lack-of-space issue that it presently suffers. I don't know if there is the vertical clearance, but if there is a second footbridge extended from it would be great, which would mean you could have a one-way system with exit only via the current gateline and bridge, and entry upstairs (with escalators for ease of access).

Looks like plenty of space to me, but would have to be done sympathetically to avoid blocking the facade and avoid making the whole station dingy a la the old New Street.

 

[Purple Orange]

I would not change the concourse. The space & light works well, it’s just the through platforms and the fact that there are not enough of them that is the issue. P1 & 2 will eventually become redundant as train lengths increase, so I could see them being converted to either more concourse space or terminating metrolink platforms.

 

[chorleyjeff]

https://nic.org.uk/app/uploads/High-Speed-North-3.pdf

Page 36 in the link above shows you the proportion of rail usage between various cities.

It highlights that Manc-Leeds, Manc-Liverpool and Leeds-Sheffield are by far the biggest flows, with Manc-Sheffield 4th on that list by a distance, but Sheffield-Liverpool is the 10th most frequented city pair. Perhaps this demonstrates that 1 tph between Liverpool & Leeds and Liverpool & Sheffield will do, with the rest terminating in Manchester.

will providing fast frequent trrains not increase patronage along the outer extremities of the transpennine routes ?

 

[Purple Orange]

will providing fast frequent trrains not increase patronage along the outer extremities of the transpennine routes ?

Of course it would, but it needs new infrastructure built in Manchester.

 

[yorksrob]

I have cause to frequently use all three main stations, and I find them all good places to change/wait for a train. Piccadilly is my favourite in terms of architecture and facilities, however Oxford Road seems to be increasingly handy for connections (particularly if you want to catch a westbound train before the hordes get on at Pic).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would not change the concourse. The space & light works well, it’s just the through platforms and the fact that there are not enough of them that is the issue. P1 & 2 will eventually become redundant as train lengths increase, so I could see them being converted to either more concourse space or terminating metrolink platforms.

Using those to create a wider concourse, perhaps flanked by food/drink outlets and with some seating, would be a good plan. To be honest it was borderline fine before the barrier line and Arena bridge went in, it's cramped and unpleasant now.

One immediate major improvement would be to remove the hoarding thing above the gateline, it does not need to be there and it adds to the claustrophobic feel.

 

[yorksrob]

There's nothing wrong with the non-"underground" section of Victoria other than:
-They should have refurbished the old train shed instead of replacing it.
- They need a better choice of ale in the bar.

Other than that, it's a perfectly nice place to wait IMO.

 

[HSP 2]

Just thinking back to before Vic. was made a bit of a mess of, you went on to the main platforms and had this great hole in front of you it was called the subway to all platforms (not including the bays). Lots of space and all ramps IIRC. Why not modify it? No lets put a footbridge in its place and slow down movement, (it may not have lined up to the new platforms but with a bit of work it could have).

 

[Purple Orange]

There's nothing wrong with the non-"underground" section of Victoria other than:
-They should have refurbished the old train shed instead of replacing it.
- They need a better choice of ale in the bar.

Other than that, it's a perfectly nice place to wait IMO.

The pub is a nice place to sit & wait. The platforms... less so. I’m awaiting my first trip to the Victoria Tap and of it is stocking a range anything like the Piccadilly Tap then I’ll be happy.

Using those to create a wider concourse, perhaps flanked by food/drink outlets and with some seating, would be a good plan. To be honest it was borderline fine before the barrier line and Arena bridge went in, it's cramped and unpleasant now.

One immediate major improvement would be to remove the hoarding thing above the gateline, it does not need to be there and it adds to the claustrophobic feel.

If P1 & P2 were removed I doubt they be going towards concourse space. In fact I wonder if the original ten bay platforms existed today, how much use they’d be and how long they’d have left for this world? What can you do with a city centre terminus that can only fit 3-4 car trains? We’re the original platforms longer? It seems odd that the Victorians would build so many short platforms.

 

[yorksrob]

The pub is a nice place to sit & wait. The platforms... less so. I’m awaiting my first trip to the Victoria Tap and of it is stocking a range anything like the Piccadilly Tap then I’ll be happy.



If P1 & P2 were removed I doubt they be going towards concourse space. In fact I wonder if the original ten bay platforms existed today, how much use they’d be and how long they’d have left for this world? What can you do with a city centre terminus that can only fit 3-4 car trains? We’re the original platforms longer? It seems odd that the Victorians would build so many short platforms.

Ah yes, I heard there's to be a new Victoria Tap.

The station Tap's usually have something to suit every taste IMO.

 

[cle]

Western bays would be the most useful thing - long enough to hold 6 cars at least. The east-facing ones don't do tons, but are needed and used still - and might need lengthening. I think removing them would take out a lot of flexibility, especially given closures over the region as electrification projects continue.

 

[riceuten]

I didn't realise until recently you can now catch a train from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Victoria (via Oxford Road), although it would indubitably be quicker to walk and/or take the tram or free bus

 

[greyman42]

I didn't realise until recently you can now catch a train from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Victoria (via Oxford Road), although it would indubitably be quicker to walk and/or take the tram or free bus

The train does not take very long so station to station it would probably be quicker than walking.

 

[40129]

Having visited both Piccadilly and Victoria on an ad-hoc basis since the mid-1980s I would opine the following.

Both stations in the 1980s were dingy affairs. The main entrance to Piccadilly was claustrophobic and did nothing to welcome you to Manchester after arriving in the impressive trainshed - London Kings Cross offered a comparable 'welcome' to London at the time - and for some reason I always hatred the underpass to the through platforms at Victoria. Plts 13/14 at Piccadilly were horrendous and at the time, the trains serving them weren't any better unless you were lucky enough to catch a cl-303.

Unfortunately, BR did Victoria a great disservice when it built the Windsor Link lines and tried to push as many through services as possible through Piccadilly - was the ultimate aim to give Manchester a single main station and make Victoria a suburban terminus a la Moor Street (Birmingham)? Thankfully, if this was the aim, they didn't succeed and through services via Victoria were retained. However, imo the arena should never have been allowed to be built on top of Victoria in the way it was and I'm thankful that I've never had to use the through platforms since it's construction. If I ever need to, it will be a case of wait in the bar and head for the platform as late as possible.

In terms of the current stations, whilst the entrance to Piccadilly, and access to plts 13/14 is vastly better than it used to be, I find the mini shopping mall somewhat claustrophobic and the bar at Victoria is better than that at Piccadilly. Victoria is also better located for downtown shopping and drinking and has a more convenient interchange with the trams.

Unfortunately, my train service to Manchester is somewhat inconstant in that, although most trains go to Piccadilly, a few go to Victoria. Personally, I'd send all trains from the North Cheshire line into Victoria and if that means losing the direct link to the Airport (Edit: it does) then so be it - the detour via Earlstown makes the journey time uncompetitive with the M56.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have cause to frequently use all three main stations, and I find them all good places to change/wait for a train. Piccadilly is my favourite in terms of architecture and facilities, however Oxford Road seems to be increasingly handy for connections (particularly if you want to catch a westbound train before the hordes get on at Pic).

Surely you mean an Eastbound train?

 

[yorksrob]

Surely you mean an Eastbound train?

Yes, Eastbound

Although it's also been wuite handy for Westbound trains as well come to think of it.

 

[Ken H]

Anybody remember the centreline bus? pre metrolink it would wend its way through the city centre from picc to vic. quicker to walk.