Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[hwl]

in Reference to F1 would that not be the biomass trains that run from Liverpool Docks to Drax? Haven't they been looking for more attractive paths for years?

There aren't that many biomass trains, the other 90+% of the paths?

 

[Grumpy]

But the idea that a flyover shouldn't be built, because it costs money, is a pretty thin argument.

That isn't the argument. The argument is that there are so few potential conflicts that it probably isn't good value for the money, especially at a time when the project is seemingly overspending

Just because there were 4 today, doesn't mean there won't be 10 in 2031.

Indeed. It also doesn't mean there wont be the same or zero in 2031.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I have now read the article and it's not quite as downbeat as I feared although it does include the usual home truths. Good to see we have got a substantial reduction in cost between GW and MML electrification but still a long way to go.

 

[Grumpy]

There are up to four biomass trains per day in each direction....plus two Knowsley-Wilton Binliners, one and sometimes two stone trains from Arcow Quarry or Rylstone to one of three Manchester area terminals, the Doncaster-Peak Forest Cemex and the Lindsey-Preston bitumen tanks.

This all sounds very good and positive but unfortunately includes "up to" and "sometimes". The harsh reality is that yesterday there were 4 eastbound freights between 0700 and 1900, and today there were 3

 

[Killingworth]

This all sounds very good and positive but unfortunately includes "up to" and "sometimes". The harsh reality is that yesterday there were 4 eastbound freights between 0700 and 1900, and today there were 3

By contrast there were 6 eastbound and 7 westbound freight workings along the Hope Valley between 07.00 and 19.00 today. Lots of unused paths too but not the patience to count them.

 

[D6130]

The harsh reality is that yesterday there were 4 eastbound freights between 0700 and 1900, and today there were 3

Monday is always the quietest day for freight on the Trans-Pennine lines....and I suspect most other lines, although Tuesdays are usually much busier. I suspect that, due to the generally fine weather, there is a temporary lull in the demand for biomass at Drax. However, living as I do within sight and sound of the railway at Hebden Bridge, I can assure you that on most days there are considerably more freight trains on this line and those travelling Eastbound must all make a conflicting move across the Up line at Thornhill LNW Junction - and while waiting to do so, they often delay following Down TPE services. Don't forget that a biomass train consists of 25 long bogie wagons in addition to the loco and takes a while to clear the junction....especially if it has previously brought to a stand (total weight: nearly 2,700 tonnes).

 

[SuperNova]

That isn't the argument. The argument is that there are so few potential conflicts that it probably isn't good value for the money, especially at a time when the project is seemingly overspending

But there aren't so few potential conflicts. I travel on that route daily and when the hourly Castleford train is late from Hudds, it severely impacts on westbound services due to the nature of the flat junction. Given line speed is also being increased as part of TRU, you dont then want a 100-110mph express conflicting with a stopper/freight train going over a flat junction as you create a conflict and capacity/punctuality issues.

 

[Ryry]

Not sure whether this is part of it but there is a full line closure next weekend's 4th and 5th of September between Darlington, Middlesbrough, redcar, saltburn and Whitby. With no trains operating at all. Replacement buses will be in operations from saltburn to Darlington. Middlesbrough to hartlepool and Middlesbrough and Whitby

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Monday is always the quietest day for freight on the Trans-Pennine lines....and I suspect most other lines, although Tuesdays are usually much busier. I suspect that, due to the generally fine weather, there is a temporary lull in the demand for biomass at Drax. However, living as I do within sight and sound of the railway at Hebden Bridge, I can assure you that on most days there are considerably more freight trains on this line and those travelling Eastbound must all make a conflicting move across the Up line at Thornhill LNW Junction - and while waiting to do so, they often delay following Down TPE services. Don't forget that a biomass train consists of 25 long bogie wagons in addition to the loco and takes a while to clear the junction....especially if it has previously brought to a stand (total weight: nearly 2,700 tonnes).

The long-term problem for the railway is that the Drax biomass traffic is not guaranteed indefinitely.
At some point, maybe a decade away, the flow could vanish with new sources of green energy coming on stream (as has already happened with coal).
At the present rate, that's just about when TRU will be completed.
The railway is already collecting infrastructure which was built just as the traffic vanished (eg Shaftholme flyover, G&SW redoubling, S&C upgrade).
NPR will also change the equation if fast passenger trains use a new route - I imagine it's issues like this which are delaying the Integrated Rail Plan.
Quite a dilemma for the macro-planners.

 

[superkev]

Reading thus months Modern Railways I got to wondering where the quoted costs per km of single track came from.
Are they for the Catenery, structure clearences and power supplies or as i suspect include enhancements to trackwork and stations.
When the ECML was done very little if anything was carried out other than that essential to accomodate electric trains. Indeed only a handfull of platform's at Leeds were wired.
Perhaps if costs quoted for electrification where for just that figures would be more competative.
K

 

[61653 HTAFC]

At Ravensthorpe, it is more than simply avoiding crossing moves though- there's about a mile of route where the the up line from Dewsbury is also the down line from Healey Mills, so that's quite the pinch point especially on a mixed use, mixed traffic railway.
Simply 4-tracking without the flyover solves that problem, but at the expense of increasing the number of conflicts at the junction itself, and without the benefit of improved capacity as a result of removing almost all points of conflict.

 

[Bald Rick]

Reading thus months Modern Railways I got to wondering where the quoted costs per km of single track came from.
Are they for the Catenery, structure clearences and power supplies or as i suspect include enhancements to trackwork and stations.
When the ECML was done very little if anything was carried out other than that essential to accomodate electric trains. Indeed only a handfull of platform's at Leeds were wired.
Perhaps if costs quoted for electrification where for just that figures would be more competative.
K

From my reading of the numbers, the costs are for direct electrification costs only, including power supplies, but excluding everything else (such as bridge rebuilds, route clearance, signalling, etc).

 

[YorksLad12]

At Ravensthorpe, it is more than simply avoiding crossing moves though- there's about a mile of route where the the up line from Dewsbury is also the down line from Healey Mills, so that's quite the pinch point especially on a mixed use, mixed traffic railway.
Simply 4-tracking without the flyover solves that problem, but at the expense of increasing the number of conflicts at the junction itself, and without the benefit of improved capacity as a result of removing almost all points of conflict.

Would Ravensthorpe be rebuilt if not for TRU / the flyover? I would say no, as if it was worth doing it would have been done already; but then stopping trains towards Mirfield would effectively block the junction if you had a flat junction whereas the flyover would effectively be on a separate line. So I agree with you; the flyover fixes more problems than it causes at the bank account.

 

[59CosG95]

From my reading of the numbers, the costs are for direct electrification costs only, including power supplies, but excluding everything else (such as bridge rebuilds, route clearance, signalling, etc).

Bridge rebuilds are often some of the worst offenders with cost. Of course, the advent of surge arresters and polyurea paint might save a good bit of cash, but if there is an aspiration to get everything to W12 clearances (unlikely IMO, given that most T-P freight runs via the Calder Valley), a lot more bridges than those mentioned in the Huddersfield - Dewsbury works. Certainly doing Dewsbury - Leeds to W12 is madness when you consider that containers would have to pass through Leeds station itself, so the route via Wakey K, Casvegas etc is far more practicable than the route via Dewsbury to clear containers through.

 

[hwl]

Bridge rebuilds are often some of the worst offenders with cost. Of course, the advent of surge arresters and polyurea paint might save a good bit of cash, but if there is an aspiration to get everything to W12 clearances (unlikely IMO, given that most T-P freight runs via the Calder Valley), a lot more bridges than those mentioned in the Huddersfield - Dewsbury works. Certainly doing Dewsbury - Leeds to W12 is madness when you consider that containers would have to pass through Leeds station itself, so the route via Wakey K, Casvegas etc is far more practicable than the route via Dewsbury to clear containers through.

Given the scale of other works W12 isn't that much extra.

You also don't want to be reliant on just one route unless really necessary hence having 2 available with option to change "mid-way" virtually gives you a 24/7 freight corridor.

A few fairly elderly underbridges that cause (passenger) speed restrictions need to be sorted which then helps permitted freight axle loadings and speeds too.

 

[Halish Railway]

Here’s some pictures of Ulleskelf that I’ve taken seeing as there aren’t many pictures on the ground of how work is progressing.

 

[D6130]

Here’s some pictures of Ulleskelf that I’ve taken seeing as there aren’t many pictures on the ground of how work is progressing.

Nice photos Harry! Interesting to see the mix of different types of stucture that are being used.

 

[nlogax]

Here’s some pictures of Ulleskelf that I’ve taken seeing as there aren’t many pictures on the ground of how work is progressing.

Always great to see the steady march of new OHE masts making their progress along the permanent way. Nice

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Bridge rebuilds are often some of the worst offenders with cost. Of course, the advent of surge arresters and polyurea paint might save a good bit of cash, but if there is an aspiration to get everything to W12 clearances (unlikely IMO, given that most T-P freight runs via the Calder Valley), a lot more bridges than those mentioned in the Huddersfield - Dewsbury works. Certainly doing Dewsbury - Leeds to W12 is madness when you consider that containers would have to pass through Leeds station itself, so the route via Wakey K, Casvegas etc is far more practicable than the route via Dewsbury to clear containers through.

Routeing via the Calder Valley then goes against the electric freight aspiration if it is not routed via Hudds.
Then you have to decide on power feeding arrangements (ATF or other), and the signalling always needs upgrading (and is often life expired).
The MML issues are also complicated by the need for an improved east-west freight route across Leicester necessitating wholesale remodelling Syston-Wigston.
Even East Kilbride needs redoubling and other enhancements to go with the wires.

 

[Halish Railway]

Nice photos Harry! Interesting to see the mix of different types of stucture that are being used.

It’s also good to see that the photo opportunities haven’t been too badly affected as more discrete types of structure have been used rather than the bulky Series 1 structures.

To add to my previous post, you can just about make out one or two piles in the compound that are yet to be installed.

 

[hwl]

Routeing via the Calder Valley then goes against the electric freight aspiration if it is not routed via Hudds.
Then you have to decide on power feeding arrangements (ATF or other), and the signalling always needs upgrading (and is often life expired).
The MML issues are also complicated by the need for an improved east-west freight route across Leicester necessitating wholesale remodelling Syston-Wigston.
Even East Kilbride needs redoubling and other enhancements to go with the wires.

You'll also need a freight diversionary route when wiring Calder Valley eventually happens!

 

[59CosG95]

It’s also good to see that the photo opportunities haven’t been too badly affected as more discrete types of structure have been used rather than the bulky Series 1 structures.

To add to my previous post, you can just about make out one or two piles in the compound that are yet to be installed.

Either that or contingency. I'm planning to pay a visit to Ully this weekend to get some more detail on the individual structures.

Routeing via the Calder Valley then goes against the electric freight aspiration if it is not routed via Hudds.
Then you have to decide on power feeding arrangements (ATF or other), and the signalling always needs upgrading (and is often life expired).
The MML issues are also complicated by the need for an improved east-west freight route across Leicester necessitating wholesale remodelling Syston-Wigston.
Even East Kilbride needs redoubling and other enhancements to go with the wires.

Apologies, I hadn't made it clear enough that I was thinking of the Calder Valley east of Thornhill LNW Jn - routing freight via Hudds should definitely happen in case of a farce west of Heaton Lodge, closures etc.

 

[Halish Railway]

A quick summary of my observations at Ulleskelf:
- All of the piles in sight have had a boomed structure (where applicable as there are a couple of single masts) that have SPS attached, again where applicable.
- All the structures have number plates attached.
- All lines, with the exception of the down Normanton have new ballast.
- The up Normanton & up Leeds lines have new track.
- There is no steelwork for OHLE structures left in the compound.
- There are 3 piles left in the compound.

 

[snowball]

That would seem to suggest we can expect actual wires soon?

 

[matacaster]

At Ravensthorpe, it is more than simply avoiding crossing moves though- there's about a mile of route where the the up line from Dewsbury is also the down line from Healey Mills, so that's quite the pinch point especially on a mixed use, mixed traffic railway.
Simply 4-tracking without the flyover solves that problem, but at the expense of increasing the number of conflicts at the junction itself, and without the benefit of improved capacity as a result of removing almost all points of conflict.

Having just been to ravensthorpe a flyover, underpass or any measure that enables you to pass the place without actually being in ravensthorpe is clearly money worthspending.

 

[59CosG95]

That would seem to suggest we can expect actual wires soon?

Probably before the year end. The September works tracker for York - Church Fenton hasn't been uploaded yet (probably will be soon); I'd personally expect any wiring works to be done after September. None of the actual cantilevers have been installed, for one thing - just the brackets. The Earth wires are likely to come before the main conductors too.

 

[Grumpy]

Certainly doing Dewsbury - Leeds to W12 is madness when you consider that containers would have to pass through Leeds station itself, so the route via Wakey K, Casvegas etc is far more practicable than the route via Dewsbury to clear containers through.

Is there a reason why they can't pass through Leeds station?
Being containers perhaps they could turn right at Holbeck to run to the container terminal?

 

[59CosG95]

Is there a reason why they can't pass through Leeds station?
Being containers perhaps they could turn right at Holbeck to run to the container terminal?

I suppose they could in theory.
Looking at the SA, these are the loading restrictions between Thornhill LNW Jn & Copley Hill Jn:

• 2590 h x 2438 w box on FSA/FTA KFA wagons Down Line
• 2590 h x 2438 w box on FEA FSA/FTA KFA wagons 2590 h x 2500 w box on FSA/FTA wagons Up Line, 10 mph at Br 23 Wood Lane [34m 22ch]
• 2590 h x 2438 w box on FEA wagons
• 2590 h x 2500 w box on KFA wagons
• 2615 h x 2500 (S16) FT on KFA wagons Down line, 10 mph at Morley Tunnel [36m 25ch to 38m 19ch]

These restrictions permit W7 & W8; W6A and W6A Lower Gauge are permitted here without restrictions.

Leeds, meanwhile, is W8 along all through lines.
From Whitehall Jn down to the FL terminal at Stourton, W8 is the top loading gauge until Pepper Rd O/B, where it changes to W9, on the through lines, the container sidings and the CEMEX siding. The through lines are also W10 & W12, covered by a gauge certificate, which continues to Doncaster via Methley, Normanton, Turners Lane Jn & South Kirkby Jn.

 

[Ken H]

Probably before the year end. The September works tracker for York - Church Fenton hasn't been uploaded yet (probably will be soon); I'd personally expect any wiring works to be done after September. None of the actual cantilevers have been installed, for one thing - just the brackets. The Earth wires are likely to come before the main conductors too.

do we have a completion date for Church Fenton - Colton Jct? A date, not a season! I would hope before May 2022 timetable change.
Also is there a completion date for vic - Stalybridge?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Also is there a completion date for vic - Stalybridge?

well this Network Rail – Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge Railway Improvements (manchestertostalybridge.co.uk)

This dashboard allows you to monitor trackside work that is taking place between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge, via Ashton. This work is overhead line equipment (OLE) piling, and has been taking place since Saturday 24 April 2021. The piling takes place overnight, so that work can be carried out safely while no trains are running, and to avoid interrupting daytime services. We will send notifications with further details to all properties near the railway, and we want to thank you for your patience while this work takes place.

says December 21 but I think that is piling, masts and major civils. I don't think it includes endanglement and wires.